In the game today, in 2018, I still think he’s largely forgotten. Can’t remember the last time I heard his name mentioned in any sort of football conversation of any kind. For someone who didn’t play that long ago, and was probably the best striker in the world for a while, don’t think that’s right. If he played for a more glamorous nation I think he (and Weah) would be spoken of more often than they are today is all.
True greats who aren't remembered as such: The fall guys of football?
- Thread starter Fortitude
- Start date
I personally don't think George Best is regarded as highly as he should/could be.
I've seen so many conversations and lists of the best players of all time, and he often sits around the 20 mark.
From everything I've seen and heard, he is easily top 10, and for pure talent and ability, pushing top 5.
If only he had played in a Word Cup
I've seen so many conversations and lists of the best players of all time, and he often sits around the 20 mark.
From everything I've seen and heard, he is easily top 10, and for pure talent and ability, pushing top 5.
If only he had played in a Word Cup
Maradona’s background is probably more relevant, but I’d trust Madonna’s assesments more in any matter where the mouth is used and not the feet (or hand).
A player before my time but Jimmy Greaves is not remembered as he should be. Scored 44 goals in just 57 appearances for England and is still the top fight scorer of all time in England with 357 goals. He done all that in what was basically a 13 year career because like many in that era he fell into the grip of drink.
All in he scored 422 goals in just over 600 appearances, the man was a goal scoring machine! My dad is a Spurs fan and he maintains Jimmy Greaves is the best finisher he has ever seen.
I don't think he is a fall guy but when great English players are mentioned you rarely hear his name.
All in he scored 422 goals in just over 600 appearances, the man was a goal scoring machine! My dad is a Spurs fan and he maintains Jimmy Greaves is the best finisher he has ever seen.
I don't think he is a fall guy but when great English players are mentioned you rarely hear his name.
Think it has to be Zico. Of course you have heard of him if you are a football fan with any interest in WC history (white Pele and stuff like that) but I never realized how good he was until I randomly came across his stats. He put up incredible goal and assist stats (240 goals in 403 games) for a midfielder and many of those were finishes after solo runs and dribbles. Really impressive. Basically a lite version of Messi and Pele. Those two and Brazilian Ronaldo were probably the only players in history that combined dribbling and playmaking with scoring on a similar or even superior level. Can ony recommend watching his compilations - amazing.
Laudrup also deserves a shout. Judging by video footage and quotes of his opponents/team mates/coaches he was easily the best player in the world before Zidane and Ronaldo emerged. Yet you rarely hear him being mentioned in these type of discussions.
Laudrup also deserves a shout. Judging by video footage and quotes of his opponents/team mates/coaches he was easily the best player in the world before Zidane and Ronaldo emerged. Yet you rarely hear him being mentioned in these type of discussions.
Laudrup was never easily the best player in the world. There were a number of creative mids around back then with similarly great technique and effectiveness, players that at various times it would have been hard to predict who was going to end their career the greatest, he probably achieved more than most of them by the end of his time with Barca, but even then you have players like Savicevic, Gullit and Andreas Moller who won more. That's not even bringing in the forwards of his era like Baggio, Romario and Van Basten.
The problem is like you mentioned. When he arrived the king in Europe was Platini then in South America there was Maradona. Later he had the Dutch trio in Serie A, peak Baggio in 93 when he left for Spain there was Romario, but easily my favourite playmaker from the 90's. His performances for Barcelona and Madrid were a mix between Messi and Iniesta.
He's one of my favourites too, just that era is stacked with a lot of excellent playmakers/attacking mids that could all compete well with each other. I'd probably say Dragan Stojkovic was my favourite of the European ones, just his knees let him down.
Talking about eastern european playmakers my favourite who played for Sporting with Paulo Sousa and Figo was Krassimir Balakov. Not even mentioning Hagi of course.
Rivaldo?
Battistuta
Definitely this. He doesn't get as much recognition as he should. For a long time he was Germany's best player
Don't think he'l ever get the love Schweini gets because Schweinsteiger has had a more glorious career and he has had a 'feel good' story career. A young talented player who took the world by storm in the World Cup, then fell off the way. He fought back though, matured, and went on to become a leading figure in dominant domestic and national teams.
Ballack though, he was a powerhouse on and off the pitch. He did and said what was on his mind and that obviously didn't sit well with some people. He was hated by Bayern fans when he left for Chelsea, and then German fans when he wanted the captaincy back from Lahm (and ultimately had a falling out with Low and even declined a friendly to get his 100th cap). He never had the good-boy image Schweinsteiger has maintained.
Who is the bigger legend? I think ability wise Ballack was above Schweinsteiger but Schweinsteiger was more successful. That was obviously because Schweinsteiger was blessed with one of the most talented German and Bayern squads in their history. Ballack on the other hand was made the leader during the nadir of German football but you cannnot ignore the role he had in bringing them back up. World Cup 2006, Euro 2008 were crucial in building a platform for the younger players coming through to succeed in the future.
I adored Ballack as a young Germany fan and I adored Schweinsteiger after Ballack retired. Can't pick one over the other.
Geoge Best is definately a good shout. To think he stopped playing top flight at the age of 28. Maradona was playing some of his best football at that age, tearing up Serie A with Napoli. Same goes for Messi and Ronaldo who are both into their 30's. For me Best is amongst those names but because of his relative short career he is probably only rated so high by people like me who had the pleasure to see the man from the OT terraces, week in week out.
Underrated Footballers:
Jari Litmanen (of Ajax)
John Barnes
Rivaldo (Even Though he won a Ballon D'or)
David Villa
Michael Essien
Overrated Footballers:
English Midfielders in the 90's and 2000's, although they were excellent footballers. Scholes overrated by United fans, Gerrard by Liverpool fans and Lampard by Chelsea fans.
And regarding players getting abject treatment after a world cup, nothing comes close to the story of Moacir Barbosa, Brazil goalkeeper at the WC 1950. His story was truly a tragedy in football history. Baggio's does not come close.
Jari Litmanen (of Ajax)
John Barnes
Rivaldo (Even Though he won a Ballon D'or)
David Villa
Michael Essien
Overrated Footballers:
English Midfielders in the 90's and 2000's, although they were excellent footballers. Scholes overrated by United fans, Gerrard by Liverpool fans and Lampard by Chelsea fans.
And regarding players getting abject treatment after a world cup, nothing comes close to the story of Moacir Barbosa, Brazil goalkeeper at the WC 1950. His story was truly a tragedy in football history. Baggio's does not come close.
There are a few players who fall under the category of the OP which is greats who didn't quite get the major trophy to ratchet up their legend another notch or two. I don't think it's affected the likes of Puskas or Cruyff, because their losing finalist teams were more celebrated than the winners, but others suggested in the thread like Zico, Ballack, Greaves fit the bill. For me Zico is a top 10 player of all time, but a World Cup would have entrenched him in that top tier, despite him performing excellently in 1982. Some good points made about Ballack by @Renegade, @flappyjay and @hasanejaz88 - clearly here's a guy who was unfortunate to fall inbetween two strong generations of German talent and whose legacy will be affected as a result. Like Zico though he couldn't have done a lot more than what he did, especially in 2002 (and getting there) with a poor team. And @Whiskey Red's Greaves would have moved up into that second tier of no 9s after likes of Ronaldo, Van Basten and Eusebio with a World Cup to his name as no doubt if he had played he would have racked up plenty of goals.
More generally in under-appreciation there's another category of those who aren't remembered as fondly because somebody else stole the limelight from their generation. In the 1980s Zico and Platini suffer a little because of Maradona catapulting himself into the stratosphere, and the same goes for Eusebio and Spencer in the 1960s compared to Pele. Even Muller in the 1970s having to duel with Cruyff and Beckenbauer for the individual plaudits perhaps hasn't got the standalone recognition he deserved. And in the early 1990s you could make the same argument for Laudrup and Baggio, relative to Romario and Van Basten, and later in the decade for Rivaldo and Figo relative to Zidane and Ronaldo.
And then there are those who either didn't play for the major clubs or countries. A lot of the Eastern Europeans and South Americans (especially outside the big two) suffer as a result. @el magico's shout of Miller is a great one - no reason why he shouldn't be seen as in the top group of defenders from the UK and Ireland. And there are plenty of others in that ilk and too many to list here.
More generally in under-appreciation there's another category of those who aren't remembered as fondly because somebody else stole the limelight from their generation. In the 1980s Zico and Platini suffer a little because of Maradona catapulting himself into the stratosphere, and the same goes for Eusebio and Spencer in the 1960s compared to Pele. Even Muller in the 1970s having to duel with Cruyff and Beckenbauer for the individual plaudits perhaps hasn't got the standalone recognition he deserved. And in the early 1990s you could make the same argument for Laudrup and Baggio, relative to Romario and Van Basten, and later in the decade for Rivaldo and Figo relative to Zidane and Ronaldo.
And then there are those who either didn't play for the major clubs or countries. A lot of the Eastern Europeans and South Americans (especially outside the big two) suffer as a result. @el magico's shout of Miller is a great one - no reason why he shouldn't be seen as in the top group of defenders from the UK and Ireland. And there are plenty of others in that ilk and too many to list here.
@Gio agree with your passage regarding the number 10s of the 80s.
For me Platini gets a raw deal when you consider in 1982 - his team was and should have been in the World Cup final bar a unforgivable collapse in extra time. If France got into the final like they should have - they would have been favourites against Italy and if France had won that in addition to his euros and how well he played in European Cup/Serie A - then his legacy would have surpassed Maradona. He got France to semis again in 1986 - so for me whilst Zico was super talented - Platini was a proven great in terms of getting results too as well as being a footballing artiste of the highest order. Instead he’s remembered as the guy who came before Zidane and modern generation don’t really understand how great he was.
Outside of that discussion - Dzajic is unheard of by many due to his nation and where he played his football - but this is a guy that gave likes of Vogts nightmares. He isn’t remembered as much as likes of Best and Garrincha but he’s arguably alongside Gento as best left winger of all time.
Luis Suarez (Spanish one) also suffers as he is also barely known by the modern generation of fans. Took Spain to first Euros and dominated the European club scene first with Barca before being the heartbeat of the Le Grande Inter side - yet ask most people about that side and they’ll recall Facchetti or ask them about the best footballers of the 60s and he won’t make most people recollection - yet he was possibly the most productive and consistent footballer of the decade.
For me Platini gets a raw deal when you consider in 1982 - his team was and should have been in the World Cup final bar a unforgivable collapse in extra time. If France got into the final like they should have - they would have been favourites against Italy and if France had won that in addition to his euros and how well he played in European Cup/Serie A - then his legacy would have surpassed Maradona. He got France to semis again in 1986 - so for me whilst Zico was super talented - Platini was a proven great in terms of getting results too as well as being a footballing artiste of the highest order. Instead he’s remembered as the guy who came before Zidane and modern generation don’t really understand how great he was.
Outside of that discussion - Dzajic is unheard of by many due to his nation and where he played his football - but this is a guy that gave likes of Vogts nightmares. He isn’t remembered as much as likes of Best and Garrincha but he’s arguably alongside Gento as best left winger of all time.
Luis Suarez (Spanish one) also suffers as he is also barely known by the modern generation of fans. Took Spain to first Euros and dominated the European club scene first with Barca before being the heartbeat of the Le Grande Inter side - yet ask most people about that side and they’ll recall Facchetti or ask them about the best footballers of the 60s and he won’t make most people recollection - yet he was possibly the most productive and consistent footballer of the decade.
I wouldn't call him a midfielder though. He was a classic #10 and his interpretation of that role was actually closer to that of a second striker. It's quite evident when you compare him to Platini (another one who combined that world class playmaking and goalscoring), who spent most of the games in the middle, but somehow still managed to produce almost the same amount of goals as Zico. I'm not saying that Platini was superior, if anything, individually Zico was probably even more talented, but that' simply about their playing styles — Platini was a midfielder and Zico, in my opinion, wasn't.
Both are a bit underrated as they overlapped with a certain Diego Maradona.
Le Tissier - Couldn't Run, Tackle, no stamina, slowest player on the pitch but he was one of the most technically gifted players with natural flair and the audacity for the spectacular that has ever graced the game. He never won a medal and stayed a one club man - Southampton. which means he will never be regarded as one of the truly greats. But to do what he did for a club that was bottom of the league every season dragging them up almost on his own was remarkable. He would score a crazy mad goal nearly every week! He scored nearly as much as Shearer and Cole one season and they were number 9's. And he never missed a penalty - I think one maybe in 47. He could dribble with ease past 3, 4 players - without even running or barely moving! And dont forget the hat trick he scored for England B in 98 and then never got a call up to the full squad. Le God deserves his name and much more credit. No other player in history could have done what he did consistently.
Yeah, his peak was incredible. The way he dominated European football in 2 completely different roles is simply outstanding. Scholes on steroids
Ballon d'Or:
1958 - 14th
1959 - 4th
1960 - won
1961 - 2nd
1962 - 15th
1963 - 8th
1964 - 2nd
1965 - 3rd
My favourite version of Ballack is the Leverkusen one on that team with Zé Roberto and Berbatov who went to the Champions League Final on 2002. Sad thing for another German player from that era was Deisler never reached his expected potential.
So this is one from the past.....Stan Mortensen.
The only player to score a hat-trick in an FA Cup Final, and that final is known to posterity as the 'Matthews Final', due to some Charlie Charles Charles-esque wing wizardy from Stanley Matthews.
Mortensen's England record is something as well, 23 goals in 25 appearances.
When he died, I remember reading his obituary, and the line that sticks with me was something along the lines of....."he will be buried next week, they'll probably call it the 'Matthews Funeral'".
The only player to score a hat-trick in an FA Cup Final, and that final is known to posterity as the 'Matthews Final', due to some Charlie Charles Charles-esque wing wizardy from Stanley Matthews.
Mortensen's England record is something as well, 23 goals in 25 appearances.
When he died, I remember reading his obituary, and the line that sticks with me was something along the lines of....."he will be buried next week, they'll probably call it the 'Matthews Funeral'".
From the same era who never gets mentioned and had actually the same level of influence for Benfica or Portugal was Mário Coluna " The Monster".
He's definitely one of the standout fall guys of football.
I didn't catch a lot of Deisler during his Herta and Gladbach days, he played sparingly at Bayern because of injuries but I clearly remember the 2005-06 season when he played almost the whole season and was fantastic (great home and away verus Juve as well). He looked set to to back on track to be a star and play at the World Cup but then a Hargreaves tackle in injury gave him torn ligaments again, he missed the World Cup and that was the end of his career sadly.
Ballack and Deisler were the 2 big hopes for Germany after that crap Euro 2000. Deisler struggled with injuries and possibly not strong mentally to recover from that.
In retrospect i have to agree with you actually, think my love of the player caused me to jump the gun a bit.
Agree good post.
Andres Escobar.
As a bit of an aside can I just ask
Who was the possibly dual nationality Spain-Sth America guy who had a similar style to Pirlo but played further forward most of the time. Could pass the ball like a dream but they reckoned he didn't turn up fairly regularly - Valeron kind of role but not Valeron - in that timezone. Prominent at a Spanish club which I thought was Valencia but appears not to be.
Who was the possibly dual nationality Spain-Sth America guy who had a similar style to Pirlo but played further forward most of the time. Could pass the ball like a dream but they reckoned he didn't turn up fairly regularly - Valeron kind of role but not Valeron - in that timezone. Prominent at a Spanish club which I thought was Valencia but appears not to be.
aha, see his name within 2 pages after posting that
Riquelme - well, he was better than Pirlo for a start isn't it?
so I nominate him for underachievement vs. talent vs. some non-recognition
(what was the question again? -)
Riquelme - well, he was better than Pirlo for a start isn't it?
so I nominate him for underachievement vs. talent vs. some non-recognition
(what was the question again? -
)What I have gathered, Andre Escobar's killing was not directly linked with his own goal. A truly sad episode, but not alike to the vilification of Barbosa.
Donato? Midfield legend of Deportivo La Coruna, played into his 40s.
Ruud Gullit.
Lot's of 80s/90s hipster favourites mentioned in this thread: Rivaldo, Laudrup, Zico, Redondo etc.
Shevshenko is a good shout, same as Deco. Both lost too much of their reputation because many people watch EPL and less people watch other leagues.
I think Rooney will be remembered more fondly in the future. Same as Zlatan, who will profit big time when some people will rate him in a few years based on goal statistics and youtube videos.
Riquelme is a weird one, Argentina could have won World Cup 2006 and he would be one of the most legendary number 10s ever.
David Silva is appreciated mostly based on his PL performances, but for Spain he was always one of many. His status could have been different if Spain had no golden generation.
I will try to think of more.
Shevshenko is a good shout, same as Deco. Both lost too much of their reputation because many people watch EPL and less people watch other leagues.
I think Rooney will be remembered more fondly in the future. Same as Zlatan, who will profit big time when some people will rate him in a few years based on goal statistics and youtube videos.
Riquelme is a weird one, Argentina could have won World Cup 2006 and he would be one of the most legendary number 10s ever.
David Silva is appreciated mostly based on his PL performances, but for Spain he was always one of many. His status could have been different if Spain had no golden generation.
I will try to think of more.
I rate him extremely highly. But a penalty miss against Arsenal, subbed off wrongly against Germany in 2006 and LVG not rating him at Barcelona is what people may remember more than his incredible talent. Brilliant, brilliant player.NO !!! it's Riquelme,
Of Villareal, it must have been.
It kind of was. He was killed because he "cost" cartel people big money
Riquelme had a difficult personality
Figo?