True greats who aren't remembered as such: The fall guys of football?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Good call. Absolutely brilliant player and outshone Ronaldinho during his Barca stint iirc. Almost a non-entity in these discussions.
Not really, Ronaldinho was on another planet and was a huge catalyst in making Barca great again!
Cheers
There's also his pre-WC career to think about, and although it's not an enormous body of work, a favourable narrative - one of the tragic downfall of the World Cup-winning marvel - of those combined works, would have painted a whole different picture in history's eyes. It would only be true analysts of historical greats that would dissect said narrative and it would be a dissenting voice that would, essentially, be drowned out by the majority.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but we know how these things work. Roberto Baggio, the World Cup winner, would have been immortalised. Roberto Baggio, the Runner-Up who 'cost Italy the World Cup', is remembered, well, as he is.
I think the discussions we would now be having is where in the lower tier of the absolute Baggio sits, actually, under that scrutiny, he would obviously always lose out to the "Gods/Kings" but it wouldn't be seen as laughable to discuss his place in, say, the top 30-50 players, whereas with the miss, he's pushed much further down than that, I think (even I am guilty of doing it).
I thought that was the English press at their NotW-level apex where they were absolutely brutal to anyone in sports or entertainment that met their criteria (the Turnip Head stuff a few years prior, was vile, too, remember?) and become got dragged through coal in accordance with that. I think that was also the time when United and SAF were public enemy #1 to the whole country due to our volatility and unapologetic domination, so you have to factor in all of the politics and the state of the press at the time.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but there's no way Baggio's regard hasn't been severely impacted on the grand stage and history's regard for the broader audience and the generations who haven't seen him play or have any interest in digging up his catalogue of footage. I agree, where it is those who deeply scrutinise and analyse every morsel of the great players and come to a fair and balanced conclusion, that Baggio is placed where he should be, but for the rest, and there are far, far more of them - and they are the ones who dictate the narrative - he is a footnote others have to bring up to even be brought into casual conversations about great players.Even though I love Baggio like most, his historical assessment didn't really suffer great blow following the 1994 World Cup tragedy, and the effects from that fallout (especially wrt. the Italian media which dramatized things) are a bit overplayed from a broader context — he's rated almost exactly where he should be, IMO, and his estimation didn't sway a whole lot from the myriad hatchet jobs — not quite as great or as remarkable as Kaiser/Cruyff/Cristiano/Platini/Puskás — more towards the second or third tier of European footballers — a genuine legend, but not a true giant who dwarfed the other players of his era. Had a remarkable peak of 3-4 years, but his career and overall legacy as an attacker or footballer or leader just doesn't stack up against the best of the best from a historical perspective, even if he had won a World Cup.
Aside from the injuries that impacted his career, the biggest issue is that his Juventus stint was cut short following the appointment of Lippi...
Then they go on to establish one of the more notable dynasties of the modern era with his spiritual successor Del Piero at the fore — which reflects poorly on Baggio, while he also suffers with a Milan team that fails to recapture the glory days of the late '80s and early '90s — and then proceeds to have a fairly decent career with other clubs. Even though there's a lot of drama surrounding fall guys in the immediate to medium term, things usually even out in the grand scheme of things as their career is scrutinized more thoroughly, unless they don't recover as footballers from all the emotional or psychological damage.
As I said to Antohan, it's not that Baggio would be alongside the Kings with the WC win (you're right about his post-Cup career lowering him when pitted directly against them), but he'd not be so far off them as he is, had such a brutal PK not gone against him.
There's absolutely no way I have him outside a Top 50 on WC exploits. I struggle to see him outside a top 30 of attacking players.
But I do think his career trajectory hurts him more than the penalty miss. Had he stayed at Juve his exposure would have reinforced his standing in the game and the peno would have been a footnote. Instead, he joined a Milan in transition and ended up consigned to the bench by more than one of their many managers.
I should have added you in a dual-quote with Redlips, as my reply in post #127 is pretty much the same as what I'd say here - it was an absolutely vile time in the history of the English press and so many other factors played a part politically, that I think it's a more removed situation than what Baggio faced, where it was solely about the WC with no hidden agendas behind it or fanning the flames. Beckham was used by the press to get back at a lot of things/people connected to the club he played for. It was the perfect storm for them and they exploited it to the hilt.I dunno, the Beckham backlash was brutal.
The English press pinned it all on him. They separated him from the rest. I remember one headline being something like "10 Lions and 1 Twat" or words to that effect, as well as many similar headlines. Pretty sure it was the Daily Mail who put a David Beckham dartboard on the back page of the next days paper too. He was interviewed a couple of years after and he said he received countless death threats, and even bullets sent to him in the post.
He turned it around though and became a hero again, and now he seems to be universally loved since he retired, but at the time it happened it was brutal.
He was immense for us that season directly following France 98. The mental strength of that guy was ridiculous really.
I don't agree with that. You can see it even in active players let alone those who get battered (legacy wise) by even only a slight passage in time. Ballack, Rivaldo, Shevchenko, Deco are all great shouts for this and they're not-long retired. Apart from Rivaldo, we can argue the toss about their true great status, but even if they don't reach the higher echelon, they're still not remembered how they should be. Add a few more decades, and they will be specks of dust for all but the most avid followers of the game relative to where they should stand.
You can go through each generation and pick players like this out
Sivori is a great shout.If I had to mention an Italian citizen, a former Juventus players or a Ballon d'Or, then I wouldn't mention Baggio but Sivori
It seems you agree with me
Let's revert to my methodology applied to this thread:
- very old-school players: I have mentioned Sivori but could have written Zizinho...
- "underrated recent players": here, you mentioned Ballack, Rivaldo, Deco...
Juergen Klinsman 232 goals in just over 500 club games. 1 in 2 ratio for his country. Top striker in his day, remembered more for his diving antics
That's fair, Baggio's rating definitely suffered a blow in the aftermath of the '94 World Cup — as humans we have a tendency to deify the winners and condemn the losers in a harsh manner along the lines of history is written by/for victors — but even when you consider that (on top of his fitness issues and him missing out on the Juventus/Milan dynasties), he's still held in high regard in the pantheon of greats for the most part, at least according to what I've observed.
Without referring to websites that are more detailed, from a casual Google search...
https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/greatest-all-time/soccer-worldsoccer100.htm
https://thekingmaker.me/100-greatest-footballers-of-all-time/
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/705591-the-100-best-soccer-players-of-all-time#slide81
He is in good company when you consider the player preceding or following him. Wrt. the casual fans or a broad popularity index, yes — he's not rated that highly at times — but we have to bear in mind that casual observers are not the most informed bunch, with all due respect to them, and he's among dozens of great players that are overlooked by the average fans. e.g. This website has a crowd-voting system: https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-best-soccer-players-of-all-time
- No Scirea/Figueroa in the Top 100
- Carlos ahead of Baresi
- Weah ahead of Eusébio
- Matthäus at 87 and Platini at 88!
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Safe to say that he's not the only one that's underestimated by a broader audience.
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from — most rational people recognize that him missing a random penalty was a nothing but an extremely minor aberration and not the defining moment of his career, or even that World Cup considering his overall heroics — but a World Cup win with him being the best player of the tournament would've definitely boosted his profile in the public consciousness, particularly among the younger generation of fans who're often misled by narratives or haven't revisited the depth of his career or immaculate skill set.
I get what you mean but imo it's because certain team accomplishments define players even from an individual perspective. Baggio is up there with the best of them, very few players have been of his standard. However what doesn't work for him is that his teams didn't win all that many team trophies. He was most of the time associated with a one man band type of team.
When you watch these players there's nothing between, honestly it ends up being a case of personal preference. As great as Diego was he was never as effective as Baggio or Zico. As effective as they were, they weren't as dynamic as he was. None of them really had the passing range of Platini. Each of them had something the others didn't have. All monsters on their own, however 86 has put Maradona where the others aren't.
IMO there's nothing much between generational players. I've seen full games of most of them and they are all amazing. imo it's impossible to say who's the greatest ever, Pele is probably the most accomplished but it's impossible to watch his games and conclude that he's better than everyone else.
When you watch these players there's nothing between, honestly it ends up being a case of personal preference. As great as Diego was he was never as effective as Baggio or Zico. As effective as they were, they weren't as dynamic as he was. None of them really had the passing range of Platini. Each of them had something the others didn't have. All monsters on their own, however 86 has put Maradona where the others aren't.
IMO there's nothing much between generational players. I've seen full games of most of them and they are all amazing. imo it's impossible to say who's the greatest ever, Pele is probably the most accomplished but it's impossible to watch his games and conclude that he's better than everyone else.
Good pick. I'd go for Luigi Riva who played for unfashionable Cagliari and for Italy. 213 goals in 397 games for his club and an astounding 35 goals in 42 games for the Azzuri. He was a hell of a player.
Robert Pires and Michael Ballack for me.
Arguably the best in their positions during their peaks but as their careers fizzled out, they've largely been forgotten.
Ballack case is sad IMO and made worse by the success Germany had after he retired. In the 2002 world cup he was unreal. Pires also had his mark on the final of Euro 2000. His assist for Trezeguet's golden goal was fantastic.
Arguably the best in their positions during their peaks but as their careers fizzled out, they've largely been forgotten.
Ballack case is sad IMO and made worse by the success Germany had after he retired. In the 2002 world cup he was unreal. Pires also had his mark on the final of Euro 2000. His assist for Trezeguet's golden goal was fantastic.
Speaking purely with regard to Engerland, I'd say Rooney. Granted he was shit in major tournaments but he's the all-time leading scorer although you wouldn't know by reputation.
Out of the current batch of players I'd say Robben, who was honestly brilliant in his prime but always seemed to miss out on being talked about in the top three players in world football.
Out of the current batch of players I'd say Robben, who was honestly brilliant in his prime but always seemed to miss out on being talked about in the top three players in world football.
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Agreed, pretty much every Italian I know would have Baggio as their favourite player. He was probably the most exciting Italian player to watch ever. But his reputation outside of Italy is not what it should be. Many do just remember him as the guy with the rat tail who missed that penalty. It's a shame really
This might seem daft but Messi is unfairly judged over not winning the WC for Argentina. He's clearly the best player in the world but he's still in this idiotic Ronaldo debate. And now they are level on Ballon D'ors. Are future generations going to end up thinking him and Ronaldo we're at the same level because Real won some CLs?
Also, nobody talks about Ruud anymore. He was the best centre forward we've had in the last 20 years.
Also, nobody talks about Ruud anymore. He was the best centre forward we've had in the last 20 years.
The real Ronaldo, most folk nowadays when somebody says Ronaldo, automatically think of the Portuguese version, I get it because he’s obviously playing and in headlines the now, but just Brazil Ronaldo gets overlooked for being one of best, if no the best ever
Giggs.
Cantona. He is no where near the list of all time great, but he is the greatest player I’ve watched in my past 30 years. Red-tinted glass or childhood hero perhaps, but he is by far the closest resemblance of definition of true King in football.
Riquelme was brilliant to watch when he was at it. A player who would not only control the game, but occasionally do something absolutely out of this world.
Unfortunately he didn't have the right mentality to fully utilise his exceptional gifts. He was extremely difficult to manage and would often go completely off the boil.
Unfortunately he didn't have the right mentality to fully utilise his exceptional gifts. He was extremely difficult to manage and would often go completely off the boil.
Marco Van Basten, From 1988 to 1992 the best striker on the planet. Had everything you would wish for as a striker, pace, technique, power. Would have been classed in the same bracket as Messi and Ronaldo if injury hadnt ruined his career. Won the balon d'or three times during that period. Forced to retire at the age of 28 due to a persistent ankle injury. For those who were around to witness him in his prime he was something else.
He was so good. Many will say Ronaldo9 is the best striker they have ever seen. To me it's van Basten. He had it all. Good with both feet, strong in the air, fast, dribbling, hold op play, link up play, close control, poaching, long range shooting.. Just everything.
Not sure if he fits the bill in this thread though. He must surely be remembered as one of the greatest no9's ever, winning everything with Milan, three ballon d'ors, and THAT goal.
The great man himself SAF was the fall guy for Rangers losing the 69 final, even though they lost 4-0, but he was blamed for not marking his man for the first goal. Made to train with the junior team after this.
Nah, I think Rooney's quite fairly rated and will be once he retires. His record as England's all-time top scorer is impressive but it came from his longevity more than anything else - plus he was never exactly magnificent for them in major tournaments.
For us you could argue along similar lines - his scoring record is obviously impressive considering he's out top scorer of all-time, but by the same token he only broke 20+ in the league twice, both in seasons where we didn't win the title. When he was up for it his all-round game could be phenomenal but he also had extended spells where he wasn't quite producing what we knew he was capable of. He'll go down as a legend both here and in general but his standing will probably be about correct.
Rooney when he first broke through in Euro 2004 was brilliant, others not so great but he was defo top class in one anyway
Drogba, Henry, Rooney, Eto'o, Villa, Litmanen, Laudrup
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Clarence Seedorf
Gheorghe Hagi.
Dejan Sevicevic for me, i watched a fair bit of that great Milan side at the time and he was a truely wonderful footballer. I seem to remember he was linked to us at 1 time although i don't know if it was a real interest or just paper talk.
There are true greats who are less well remembered than other greats without doing something wrong.
3 of the best players in the 90's were Baggio, Romario and Stoichkov. They are still remembered but not very often mentioned (in England). G. Weah was fantastic for PSG and Milan. He wasn't very productive in terms of goals but was a joy to watch while in his prime. Savicevic (mentioned above) is a good shout too.
3 of the best players in the 90's were Baggio, Romario and Stoichkov. They are still remembered but not very often mentioned (in England). G. Weah was fantastic for PSG and Milan. He wasn't very productive in terms of goals but was a joy to watch while in his prime. Savicevic (mentioned above) is a good shout too.
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Dirk Kuyt.
Yeah, I said it.
Yeah, I said it.