UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[EwanI Ted]

Jeremy speaketh

We won the argument, but I regret we didn’t convert that into a majority for change | Jeremy Corbyn

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change

Brexit plus the MSM was the cause. Manifesto and principles were fine. We should listen to people, even though we already know the answer. As you were.

A dangerous delusion if Labour really want to understand what happened.

 

[esmufc07]

Jeremy speaketh



https://www.theguardian.com/politic...didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change

Brexit plus the MSM was the cause. Manifesto and principles were fine. We should listen to people, even though we already know the answer. As you were.

A dangerous delusion if Labour really want to understand what happened.

Delusional and worrying.

 

[sammsky1]

Jeremy speaketh
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change

Brexit plus the MSM was the cause. Manifesto and principles were fine. We should listen to people, even though we already know the answer. As you were.
A dangerous delusion if Labour really want to understand what happened.

The entire piece is as though he is still campaigning and doesn't properly realise what a joke many people thought he and his manifesto was! The quotes below are just delusional:

"The polarisation in the country over Brexit made it more difficult for a party with strong electoral support on both sides. I believe we paid a price for being seen by some as trying to straddle that divide or re-run the referendum."

No shit sherlock! Even Boris warned you about that.

"For the first time in decades, many people have had hope for a better future."

Yes and you made sure that people think that future is more hopeful under Boris and the Tories.

"I am proud that on austerity, on corporate power, on inequality and on the climate emergency we have won the arguments and rewritten the terms of political debate. But I regret that we did not succeed in converting that into a parliamentary majority for change."

Who says you won anything?! Sound like you wrote a manifesto that will help you sleep at night, as opposed to one that could win. And you knew it. Have fun reading your manifesto while you sit on your loo in years to come.


Having been so emotionally, intellectually and physically invested for the last few months in such a campaign, there is no way he has yet 'reflected' and so he should keep quiet until he does. Just take a full break over xmas, where the opposition can do very little, and come back with fresh eyes.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Labour got annihilated because of their Brexit stance. Make absolutely no mistake about it. It had the same “terrorist sympathising” leader in 2017 and it made substantial gains all around the country and this was because they backed Brexit and the end of free movement in their manifesto. He was unpopular on the doorstep in 2017 but the party and the policies wasn’t and people managed to look past it. It is argued they could have won with a different leader then but Ed Miliband ate a bacon butty the wrong way so it’s unlikely.

As much as they tried to shift the focus this election was always going to be about Brexit and why it hasn’t happened yet. The rural areas want it because they bought into the promises/lies that were spouted during the referendum and they wholeheartedly believe that its going to make their lives better. This is why they blame Labour in the many interviews I have seen about the state of their towns even when they’re not in power. Because Labour is seen to have blocked Brexit. They genuinely believe it’s going to uproot the total destitution they’re in.

Labour policies are good you couldn’t find people to disagree with any of them but on the whole as good as they may be it was probably just too many too fast for people to digest and they become a mess which couldn’t overtake a simple message of Get Brexit Done which can mean anything to anyone reading it just like Take Back Control did fuelled with a few lies around it. Very few people care how you pay for stuff. Not many canvassing would have been asked for that.

Despite being a remainer and forever hoping and pushing for Brexit to be cancelled I think this is the reason we are where we are now. It’s our fault. Instead of fighting it and trying to show people why it was wrong and why they were wrong we should have instead embraced it and just let the Conservatives get on with it. Only once it ended up terribly we should have pointed this out as only then it would have hit home with people. By frustrating and trying to stop it, all it did was cause for people that bought into it in the first place to double down in their beliefs and we are where we are now having wasted 3.5 years and with another 5 years of Tory government.

Brexit will be a mistake but only once people live through it they’ll be able to understand it. And now that the Brexiteer in chief is in charge with a stonking majority there cannot be any excuses after 5 years of government. So let them get on with it. The lies can only get you so far when they are just words. It’ll be difficult to change peoples perceptions of what they will feel everyday with words again.

As for Labour, it’s too soon to decide what to do for the next election. The first thing would be to elect a strong leader with no baggage and I think this must be Starmer. He then needs to create a shadow cabinet of the same ilk with MPs with as broad as possible representation of the country as a whole so Labour voters everywhere can feel represented again.

 

[TheGame]

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[Damien]

Sky News piece on quotes from voters in Burnley on Labour's downfall:

"When you don't sing the national anthem and you don't bow to the Queen, there's something wrong with your integrity and quite a number of years ago when he (Corbyn) was rubbing shoulders with Sinn Fein, they're not good things. People remember that."

"People voted to leave. We have to leave, that was how it should be."

"People wanted it to get done and at the end of the day that is what the country voted and they believe Boris will get the job done."

"They (Labour) need to come back to 'New' roots, Labour roots and stick to what they always have been for the working people which is millions of us."

Food bank person outside Burnley's stadium on whether demand will disappear now Conservatives have a big majority:

"I don't think it will disappear at all. I think it is going to be here until something's done about minimum wage and things like that it is always going to be here. People are struggling."

Quotes from Newcastle fans who were in Burnley for the match:

"Jeremy Corbyn was trying to sell us a fairytale. People just aren't having it. It was a Brexit vote, weren't it?"

"The left have infiltrated the Labour Party and Corbyn is going to stay on until he finds another Corbyn and then he'll resign. He won't resign before then. It is the nature of the man."

 

[Redlambs]

Jeremy speaketh



https://www.theguardian.com/politic...didnt-convert-that-into-a-majority-for-change

Brexit plus the MSM was the cause. Manifesto and principles were fine. We should listen to people, even though we already know the answer. As you were.

A dangerous delusion if Labour really want to understand what happened.

fecking delusional.

Labour got annihilated because of their Brexit stance. Make absolutely no mistake about it. It had the same “terrorist sympathising” leader in 2017 and it made substantial gains all around the country and this was because they backed Brexit and the end of free movement in their manifesto. He was unpopular on the doorstep in 2017 but the party and the policies wasn’t and people managed to look past it. It is argued they could have won with a different leader then but Ed Miliband ate a bacon butty the wrong way so it’s unlikely.

As much as they tried to shift the focus this election was always going to be about Brexit and why it hasn’t happened yet. The rural areas want it because they bought into the promises/lies that were spouted during the referendum and they wholeheartedly believe that its going to make their lives better. This is why they blame Labour in the many interviews I have seen about the state of their towns even when they’re not in power. Because Labour is seen to have blocked Brexit. They genuinely believe it’s going to uproot the total destitution they’re in.

Labour policies are good you couldn’t find people to disagree with any of them but on the whole as good as they may be it was probably just too many too fast for people to digest and they become a mess which couldn’t overtake a simple message of Get Brexit Done which can mean anything to anyone reading it just like Take Back Control did fuelled with a few lies around it. Very few people care how you pay for stuff. Not many canvassing would have been asked for that.

Despite being a remainer and forever hoping and pushing for Brexit to be cancelled I think this is the reason we are where we are now. It’s our fault. Instead of fighting it and trying to show people why it was wrong and why they were wrong we should have instead embraced it and just let the Conservatives get on with it. Only once it ended up terribly we should have pointed this out as only then it would have hit home with people. By frustrating and trying to stop it, all it did was cause for people that bought into it in the first place to double down in their beliefs and we are where we are now having wasted 3.5 years and with another 5 years of Tory government.

Brexit will be a mistake but only once people live through it they’ll be able to understand it. And now that the Brexiteer in chief is in charge with a stonking majority there cannot be any excuses after 5 years of government. So let them get on with it. The lies can only get you so far when they are just words. It’ll be difficult to change peoples perceptions of what they will feel everyday with words again.

As for Labour, it’s too soon to decide what to do for the next election. The first thing would be to elect a strong leader with no baggage and I think this must be Starmer. He then needs to create a shadow cabinet of the same ilk with MPs with as broad as possible representation of the country as a whole so Labour voters everywhere can feel represented again.

If it makes you fell any better, you at least seem to get one of the biggest problems. And again, thank you for trying!

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Worse, now we have clowns saying "oh well, they could never win anyway". The whole thing is a typical Labour predictable joke.



JC himself, in his own words, has made a mockery of his supporters right there. Can we all finally agree, however much it hurts, that he is wrong and he always was un-electable and it's largely because he could not be trusted. Now we know why people got that feeling, because despite his defenders blaming media and all that, the man really is a spineless old fool completely out of touch with the world. "I have called for a period of reflection in the party, " feck you, you coward, go now. You have done enough damage.

 

[Damien]

Sunday's front pages

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[Full bodied red]

"All the estimates" suggests there's a lot of info on this that will easily support your claims...care to share them?

Sorry for the delay.

There isn't much official info, which is what I did say, but this is considered as the most authoritative study and is usually quoted or its findings used as evidence when discussing the subject.


http://www.cepii.fr/PDF_PUB/wp/2018/wp2018-04ang.pdf

 

[Ultimate Grib]

fecking delusional.




If it makes you fell any better, you at least seem to get one of the biggest problems. And again, thank you for trying!




Worse, now we have clowns saying "oh well, they could never win anyway". The whole thing is a typical Labour predictable joke.



JC himself, in his own words, has made a mockery of his supporters right there. Can we all finally agree, however much it hurts, that he is wrong and he always was un-electable and it's largely because he could not be trusted. Now we know why people got that feeling, because despite his defenders blaming media and all that, the man really is a spineless old fool completely out of touch with the world. "I have called for a period of reflection in the party, " feck you, you coward, go now. You have done enough damage.

Go through this forum and you will see I had reservations about Corbyn and wanted him to go since the EU referendum shitshow. Constantly fighting against him or throwing my toys out the pram and leaving as some did however showed to be counterproductive. This is why I backed the Labour party and it’s temporary custodian with all that I could.

I would urge anyone who wants a Labour government to join the Labour party. It’s simply paramount that the right leader is chosen because policies will only get you so far. The current membership is more interested in protection of their ideals rather than gaining power and I’m afraid if we don’t do something about it we’re going to end up with someone like Richard fecking Burgeon.

 

[Redlambs]

Go through this forum and you will see I had reservations about Corbyn and wanted him to go since the EU referendum shitshow. Constantly fighting against him or throwing my toys out the pram and leaving as some did however showed to be counterproductive. This is why I backed the Labour party and it’s temporary custodian with all that I could.

I would urge anyone who wants a Labour government to join the Labour party. It’s simply paramount that the right leader is chosen because policies will only get you so far. The current membership is more interested in protection of their ideals rather than gaining power and I’m afraid if we don’t do something about it we’re going to end up with someone like Richard fecking Burgeon.

If I join now, will I get to vote? Or is it pre-election membership?

I'm going against momentum and all the delusional fools who still want them in control. They are firmly to blame for this mess and so is anyone who blindly supports them after seeing this from Corbyn.

 

[Ubik]

If I join now, will I get to vote? Or is it pre-election membership?

I'm going against momentum and all the delusional fools who still want them in control. They are firmly to blame for this mess and so is anyone who blindly supports them after seeing this from Corbyn.

Rules still have to be set yet (as with everything in the Labour party, it has to be done by a committee), but in all likelihood if you join now (or join a registered affiliate ), you'll get a vote.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

If I join now, will I get to vote? Or is it pre-election membership?

I'm going against momentum and all the delusional fools who still want them in control. They are firmly to blame for this mess and so is anyone who blindly supports them after seeing this from Corbyn.

You’re wrong about momentum. It’s not the movement at fault it’s the leadership and they’re not representative of everyone. For the most part people I met are enthusiastic, level headed and brilliant campaigners. It’s the idiots that make the media that give them a bad name. Having witnessed it first hand, in hindsight I honestly believe the losses might have been much bigger without them running things on the ground.You definitely need them on side.

Every member gets a vote. I don’t know what the cut off is but will be after leadership election or candidates announced. There’s loads of time to go so make sure you register.

 

[Redlambs]

You’re wrong about momentum. It’s not the movement at fault it’s the leadership and they’re not representative of everyone. For the most part people I met are enthusiastic, level headed and brilliant campaigners. It’s the idiots that make the media that give them a bad name. Having witnessed it first hand, in hindsight I honestly believe the losses might have been much bigger without them running things on the ground.You definitely need them on side.

Every member gets a vote. I don’t know what the cut off is but will be after leadership election or candidates announced. There’s loads of time to go so make sure you register.

Sorry, I meant their leadership. That's who I've been banging on against, not the people who agree with their ideals.

The people who are leading and doing the choosing should go and now let fresh modern people come in and take the party forward in a way that will gain trust again. Don't abandon those core policies, just the idiots who care about power over what's right.

 

[Grinner]

Not sure if anyone posted this yet, but it’s not surprising that the majority of conservative voters were in the older age brackets.
Labour need to find a way to get more votes, but they need to be careful not to lose the young majority they have.

Maybe this means that Conservatives have to look after the NHS so that their base, the over 65s, live long enough to keep voting them in.

 

[Grinner]

Can anyone enlighten me, in a summary, why Jeremy Corbyn was considered so absolutely loathable?

I'm no politics fan or follower so explain it to me like a complete novice, which I am really. I honestly dont get it. Labour is supposed to be the party of the 'everyman' and Corbyn looks and acts, for the most part, far more regularly than any politician I've ever seen. Tony Blair was a public school boy representing the working class, for example, even just to look at the bloke. Corbyn looks like a bloke you might work with, and surely that should be a major appeal?

The anti-Semitism stuff etc isn't something I need explaining here, because it appears that he was considered completely unelectable from way back when. I never understood it and I still don't.

I see stuff from forces groups on Facebook and they were always moaning about the IRA sympathiser thing. That's a big issue for them. But if you tell them that tories wouldn't think twice about sending them to war to protect oil or other business they wouldn't have it. I don't understand what impact Corbyn's IRA ties has on anybody in this day and age.

 

[balaks]

Corbyn writing in the Guardian that Labour won the argument but not the election. Incredible stuff. On what planet does he live?

 

[Boycott]

Corbyn writing in the Guardian that Labour won the argument but not the election. Incredible stuff. On what planet does he live?

The planet in which the Socialist Workers Party just had their greatest ever election result.

 

[horsechoker]

Lads, it's labour

 

[sullydnl]

"We won the argument".

*sigh*

 

[Ducklegs]

Sorry what now? Birth rate of EU citizens is substantially higher than the EU? And their offspring drain the system rather than pay into it?

Wtf @Ducklegs ?

The net benefit equation is only applicable to the first generation of immigrants.

When they have children here, its THEN that the CHILDREN become and always continue to be through out their life, a net loss, due to their greater use of public services, and seeing as the birth rate among immigrants from ALL countries is higher than UK nationals, this drags the overall "net contribution" figure down.

In short, its first generation immigrants from the EU that have had a net contribution once they have kids here, they cost us more than they contribute.

 

[finneh]

In other words, you want Labour to not be Labour? You just described a centre-right liberal party.

"Liberal left"

 

[Zarlak]

I see stuff from forces groups on Facebook and they were always moaning about the IRA sympathiser thing. That's a big issue for them. But if you tell them that tories wouldn't think twice about sending them to war to protect oil or other business they wouldn't have it. I don't understand what impact Corbyn's IRA ties has on anybody in this day and age.

The Tories literally have an ex IRA member serving for them right now. They don't give a feck about the IRA stuff they just grasp at whatever they can.

 

[Vernon Philander]

I see stuff from forces groups on Facebook and they were always moaning about the IRA sympathiser thing. That's a big issue for them. But if you tell them that tories wouldn't think twice about sending them to war to protect oil or other business they wouldn't have it. I don't understand what impact Corbyn's IRA ties has on anybody in this day and age.

"He's a threat to our national security"

 

[TheGame]

Interesting thread:

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[nickm]

The planet in which the Socialist Workers Party just had their greatest ever election result.

This.

 

[nickm]

I see stuff from forces groups on Facebook and they were always moaning about the IRA sympathiser thing. That's a big issue for them. But if you tell them that tories wouldn't think twice about sending them to war to protect oil or other business they wouldn't have it. I don't understand what impact Corbyn's IRA ties has on anybody in this day and age.

You don’t understand why the army didn’t like Corbyn? Wow.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Corbyn writing in the Guardian that Labour won the argument but not the election. Incredible stuff. On what planet does he live?

what was the argument - proving that policies from 70’s are no longer relevant?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You don’t understand why the army didn’t like Corbyn? Wow.

I tend to disagree with that too. I'm only 37 but in my lifetime near me the IRA murdered two 12 year old kids in Warrington and blew up Manchester City centre in 96, a bomb I heard go off from my house. Support for the IRA is problematic for a lot of English people.

 

[rcoobc]

So some are saying Labour need to become more Tory to get elected, what is the point then?

to get elected.

 

[NWRed]

The net benefit equation is only applicable to the first generation of immigrants.

When they have children here, its THEN that the CHILDREN become and always continue to be through out their life, a net loss, due to their greater use of public services, and seeing as the birth rate among immigrants from ALL countries is higher than UK nationals, this drags the overall "net contribution" figure down.

In short, its first generation immigrants from the EU that have had a net contribution once they have kids here, they cost us more than they contribute.

This makes no sense whatsoever. First, if every person in the UK was a net negative contributor to the state over the course of their lives then the state wouldn't be viable. In fact given the falling birth rate of the indigenous population, without immigration the state will become unviable.

Second, where is the evidence that the children of immigrants are greater users of public services through out their lives? In fact, if you consider for example the NHS, immigrants and the children of immigrants are the doctors and nurses that allow us to have a viable service in the first place.

As a teacher my own personal experience is that the children of EU immigrants are intelligent, hard working and ambitous (not surprising seeing as they come from homes where their parents had the ambition to start a new life in a new country) and will grow up to become outstanding members of our society, exactly the kind of people we should want in our country.

 

[Pexbo]

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[Classical Mechanic]

As a teacher my own personal experience is that the children of EU immigrants are intelligent, hard working and ambitous (not surprising seeing as they come from homes where their parents had the ambition to start a new life in a new country) and will grow up to become outstanding members of our society, exactly the kind of people we should want in our country.

That's backed up by some data too in that children from the indigenous working class are the worst performing students of any ethnicity in the country. Although I believe this failure only starts to occur in secondary school so there may be some sociological explanation for this: low parental expectations and the prejudices of society etc?

 

[esmufc07]

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[Berbasbullet]

I tend to disagree with that too. I'm only 37 but in my lifetime near me the IRA murdered two 12 year old kids in Warrington and blew up Manchester City centre in 96, a bomb I heard go off from my house. Support for the IRA is problematic for a lot of English people.

Did he support them though? I thought he was negotiating a truce with them?

 

[jeff_goldblum]

The net benefit equation is only applicable to the first generation of immigrants.

When they have children here, its THEN that the CHILDREN become and always continue to be through out their life, a net loss, due to their greater use of public services, and seeing as the birth rate among immigrants from ALL countries is higher than UK nationals, this drags the overall "net contribution" figure down.

In short, its first generation immigrants from the EU that have had a net contribution once they have kids here, they cost us more than they contribute.

Can you back this up with data? And do 2nd gen kids cost the state more than 10th or 20th 40th gen British kids? I very much doubt that's the case.

 

[NWRed]

That's backed up by some data too in that children from the indigenous working class are the worst performing students of any ethnicity in the country. Although I believe this failure only starts to occur in secondary school so there may be some sociological explanation for this: low parental expectations and the prejudices of society etc?

In my experience parental engagement with schools is the decisive factor in determing whether students achieve their potential, irrespective of any other factor. With very few exceptions if the parents value education then the students do too.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Sounds like my brother...

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I've come to the conclusion that people will just believe what they want to believe.

 

[sammsky1]

The net benefit equation is only applicable to the first generation of immigrants.

When they have children here, its THEN that the CHILDREN become and always continue to be through out their life, a net loss, due to their greater use of public services, and seeing as the birth rate among immigrants from ALL countries is higher than UK nationals, this drags the overall "net contribution" figure down.

In short, its first generation immigrants from the EU that have had a net contribution once they have kids here, they cost us more than they contribute.

May I see the source data from which this opinion is derived. It goes against everything we know about 2nd generation expatiates from commonwealth countries in UK.

 

[Dante]

Interesting thread:

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It's often unspoken, but race (and the sense of superiority that comes from it) plays a huge in our politics. It was arguably the reason for Brexit, and now again for the 2019 election.