UK General Election - 12th December 2019 | Con 365, Lab 203, LD 11, SNP 48, Other 23 - Tory Majority of 80

[SillyUsername]

Why should tradesmen have to operate in a market, but unskilled burger flippers, of which there are burger joints on every corner, just get £15/hr for doing nothing extra, that hardly seems fair.

I wouldn't waste too much time on Abizzz. He clearly doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

The going rate for any self employed tradesman is at least £150 a day. Abizzz seems to think that in a new economic order where the minimum wage is £15 per hour, tradesman won't actually start charging more because "someone will do it for less".

I can only assume he's very naive on how business actually works.

 

[Sassy Colin]

I don't blame you mate. The first thing I thought when this topic was brought up was that working in McDonalds must be a lot harder than some of the posters seem to think.

Digging a ditch in all weathers is hard work, but it's not skilled work.

Do you not think that some one who has undertaken extensive training is worth more than someone who can learn the job in a couple of hours?

 

[Ady87]

Digging a ditch in all weathers is hard work, but it's not skilled work.

Do you not think that some one who has undertaken extensive training is worth more than someone who can learn the job in a couple of hours?

Er, which is it? Unskilled work, or work that requires extensive training (....skills)?

Again, get in the kitchen on the grill, alone whist the store is doing £1500-£2000 hour's and you can't even go for a piss and tell me it's any better or worse than digging a ditch.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

McDonalds is hard work because they treat their staff like crap. The actual job isn't complicated.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Er, which is it? Unskilled work, or work that requires extensive training (....skills)?

Again, get in the kitchen on the grill, alone whist the store is doing £1500-£2000 hour's and you can't even go for a piss and tell me it's any better or worse than digging a ditch.

Where did I say that digging a ditch requires extensive training?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Where did I say that digging a ditch requires extensive training?

You do realise that tradesmen don't dig ditches all day? Only labourers do similar work. If you have a trade then you are skilled.

 

[711]

Digging a ditch in all weathers is hard work, but it's not skilled work.

Do you not think that some one who has undertaken extensive training is worth more than someone who can learn the job in a couple of hours?

Most of the time yes, but that's kind of obvious isn't it?

I wasn't getting at you particularly Colin, your post just happened to come in above mine as I wrote, but I think Ady detected some looked down on the staff there and I think so too.

 

[Ady87]

Where did I say that digging a ditch requires extensive training?

You can see why/how I arrived there from you post, I hope.

 

[Sassy Colin]

You do realise that tradesmen don't dig ditches all day? Only labourers do similar work. If you have a trade then you are skilled.

What the hell are you on about?

A burger flipper is unskilled and a ditch digger is unskilled, I don't think there is any argument about that

Both do unpleasant jobs which most people wouldn't fancy doing, but neither requires any special skills.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Lots of unskilled work can earn you good money and nobody seems to complain about that. Why do fast food workers always bare the brunt of the moaning shitheads?

 

[Sassy Colin]

You can see why/how I arrived there from you post, I hope.

Not if you had read my post properly, no.

 

[Smores]

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A very good point i think. It doesn't really matter if these figures are true or not as the sentiment that Labour will spend and open the doors is being pushed.

May as well come up with outlandish claims as it's what gets you publicity. Part of me would hope these figures discredit the Tories argument but who knows.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

I wouldn't waste too much time on Abizzz. He clearly doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

The going rate for any self employed tradesman is at least £150 a day. Abizzz seems to think that in a new economic order where the minimum wage is £15 per hour, tradesman won't actually start charging more because "someone will do it for less".

I can only assume he's very naive on how business actually works.

Again you keep talking about minimum wage despite several people pointing it out over and over that it's McDonalds wage and not minimum wage. I know it feels like its Ronald McDonald running the country but McDonalds is not the government.

You failed to answer why are tradespeople not offended that admin people at Taylor Wimpey for example get more money a day than they do. And that PAs to the CEO get double what they do despite being unskilled.

 

[SillyUsername]

Again you keep talking about minimum wage despite several people pointing it out over and over that it's McDonalds wage and not minimum wage. I know it feels like its Ronald McDonald running the country but McDonalds is not the government.

Because a selection of McDonald's staff are on strike asking for £15 an hour and it's obviously not going to happen without the government forcing McDonald's to do so. Soon after, staff at burger king, subway, costa and hundreds of others will obviously start demanding the same and before long it would be the new standard.

Failing that, let's say by some miracle circumstance the minimum wage stayed the same, but out of the goodness of their hearts, McDonald's decided to pay everyone £15 per hour, then McDonald's employment would no longer be the entry level job that it's always been and placement on the drive through would become far more competitive than it is now. You wouldn't be able to (almost) walk into McDonald's employment as you can now because there would be far more competition. In this situation, tradesman I'm sure wouldn't care because the minimum wage still be where it's at and they'd continue charging at least double, as they have ever since I've been involved.

 

[711]

Everyone looking forward to a four day week then?

 

[Mogget]

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We broke it so trust us to fix it

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Vote Tory to reverse 9 years of Tory cuts.

It's absurd how they get away with it. One of their pledges is they're going to recruit 20,000 more police officers but they barely get called out on the fact they were the ones who cut the numbers in the first place.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Everyone looking forward to a four day week then?

With our luck they'll cut Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Because a selection of McDonald's staff are on strike asking for £15 an hour and it's obviously not going to happen without the government forcing McDonald's to do so. Soon after, staff at burger king, subway, costa and hundreds of others will obviously start demanding the same and before long it would be the new standard.

Failing that, let's say by some miracle circumstance the minimum wage stayed the same, but out of the goodness of their hearts, McDonald's decided to pay everyone £15 per hour, then McDonald's employment would no longer be the entry level job that it's always been and placement on the drive through would become far more competitive than it is now. You wouldn't be able to (almost) walk into McDonald's employment as you can now because there would be far more competition. In this situation, tradesman I'm sure wouldn't care because the minimum wage still be where it's at and they'd continue charging at least double, as they have ever since I've been involved.

What the feck does the government have to do with what a private company pays its employees? Are you saying that suddenly the government is going to change the minimum wage because of the demands of a fraction of the 120,000 staff McDonalds employs in the UK?

If you're jumping to those kind of conclusions I don't even know how you operate and run a business

Also good job on again ignoring the comparison of disparity in current wages in the building sector which have had no effects.

 

[Abizzz]

Why should tradesmen have to operate in a market, but unskilled burger flippers, of which there are burger joints on every corner, just get £15/hr for doing nothing extra, that hardly seems fair.

That would be a societal choice, no reason other than that they have no bargaining position in a society that pumps out unskilled people by the bus load.

I wouldn't waste too much time on Abizzz. He clearly doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

The going rate for any self employed tradesman is at least £150 a day. Abizzz seems to think that in a new economic order where the minimum wage is £15 per hour, tradesman won't actually start charging more because "someone will do it for less".

I can only assume he's very naive on how business actually works.

It's not just your username, is it? Pick up a book on economics or look at the world around you.


Or start insulting people. Your choice I guess.

 

[Kaos]

It always makes me laugh when you hear certain people scoffing are the idea of low skilled workers being paid a reasonable wage, especially when it comes from economics/finance majors who do their bit for the community with their job at a hedge fund or investment bank.

Always reminds me of that scene in American Psycho when Patrick Bateman (A yuppie who’s dad owns the hedge fund he works at) ridicules a homeless person by telling him to get a job.

£30k a year in somewhere like London is hardly a King’s ransom.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It always makes me laugh when you hear certain people scoffing are the idea of low skilled workers being paid a reasonable wage, especially when it comes from economics/finance majors who do their bit for the community with their job at a hedge fund or investment bank.

Always reminds me of that scene in American Psycho when Patrick Bateman (A yuppie who’s dad owns the hedge fund he works at) ridicules a homeless person by telling him to get a job.

£30k a year in somewhere like London is hardly a King’s ransom.

To be fair, Patrick Bateman's thoughts on Phil Collins and the music of Genesis were of exceptionally high merit.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

To be fair, Patrick Bateman's thoughts on Phil Collins and the music of Genesis were of exceptionally high merit.

"It's just another day for you and me in paradise." Said Phil Collins. From his Swiss tax haven.

 

[fergieisold]

It always makes me laugh when you hear certain people scoffing are the idea of low skilled workers being paid a reasonable wage, especially when it comes from economics/finance majors who do their bit for the community with their job at a hedge fund or investment bank.

Always reminds me of that scene in American Psycho when Patrick Bateman (A yuppie who’s dad owns the hedge fund he works at) ridicules a homeless person by telling him to get a job.

£30k a year in somewhere like London is hardly a King’s ransom.

I think the point some are making is that you have to have a bottom wage. I'm all for the minimum wage going up, but it is clear that there will have to be rises in other sectors because of it.

 

[Sassy Colin]

What I misunderstood here was that I thought a minimum wage of £15/hr was being advocated, whereas it looks like just McDonalds staff want £15/hr.

Like I posted before, it's no skin off the Government's nose what the minimum wage is, they don't have to pay for it, they can make it at whatever level they like.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

"It's just another day for you and me in paradise." Said Phil Collins. From his Swiss tax haven.

Certified banger.

 

[esmufc07]

Why is everybody assuming they’d all be on £30k? I’d imagine most of their workers are on part time contracts, few would be on full time and I’m guessing those that are would be supervisors/managers.

 

[Sweet Square]

The cost of living there is significantly higher than here so are they actually any better off in comparison to the rest of their society?

Denmark second happiest country in the world - https://www.thelocal.dk/20190321/denmark-now-worlds-second-happiest-country-after-latest-report

The 2019 edition of the World Happiness Report, released annually since 2012 by the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network (SDSN), was released on Wednesday. Nordic and European countries generally dominate the top end of the ranking.

A survey that ranks 156 countries by how happy their citizens perceive themselves to be, the 136-page report uses measures for factors like levels of caring, freedom to make life decisions, social support, generosity, good governance, honesty, health and income.

Copenhagen - Happiest City In The World

https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/travel/2018/04/copenhagen-happiest-city-world

I ask one of my companions what she makes of the 'world's happiest city' tag. "Well, it's true that people are comfortable," she explains, with annoyingly good second-language clarity. "We pay a lot of taxes — the basic rate is 39% — but it means public infrastructure and living standards are pretty high for everyone. We're lucky."

are you simply repeating talking points you read elsewhere?

What? Your argument is that if McDonald workers are paid £15 an hour we will lose teachers. Which is based on nothing. Again I gave you a literally country where fast food workers are paid around £15 an hour and they are a hell of a lot happier and secure then us lot living Britain. But yes something something ''talking points''.

 

[Shamwow]

or are you simply repeating talking points you read elsewhere?

Your first response to ke on the topic was literally a talking point cut and pasted from somewhere else that didn't make sense.

 

[Sweet Square]

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[711]

Anyone who speaks in emojis can feck right off, I ain't even going to watch it.

 

[sammsky1]

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[Sweet Square]

Anyone who speaks in emojis can feck right off, I ain't even going to watch it.

 

[Fiskey]

Why should the government, any government care about how high the minimum wage is? It doesn't cost them anything, in fact the tax take increases.

Let's keep increasing it and see how many companies we can put out of business.

Because governments have to care about unemployment? If lots of companies go out of business who is there to employ people?

 

[Fiskey]

Goods and services made in the UK will increase because we're paying more to the people who create and deliver them. And if more people want to buy something - like a TV say - then simple supply and demand dictates that the price will increase there too. There aren't many cases where increasing both the cost of producing something and increasing demand for it won't result in a price increase to consumers.

And don't forget, we already operate at a trade deficit in this country, ie we import more than we export, which broadly speaking is a bad thing. If we shunt the pay scale of everyone up the ladder too many steps, that deficit increases further. Suddenly goods abroad will seem cheap as chips to us and we'll buy from abroad instead of the UK, but people in other countries looking at items produced here will see them increase in price, and they'll buy less. The net outflow of money from the country increases, trade in the UK falls and jobs are lost. So there are other issues like that to think about.

Again, this isn't to say we shouldn't increase the minimum wage, we certainly should do. You can increase it by a certain amount without too many problems. But it needs to be at a level where were don't end up with adverse consequences, particularly since they can be self-defeating.

We barely export goods anymore, mostly services, and those people (bankers, lawyers etc.) won't be affected either way. What you say about supply and demand would only really happen in a closed economy. We will be able to buy a TV from China or Korea for the same amount of money, a slight increase in demand from the newly more wealthy British won't effect the global market for these kind of things.

 

[TheGame]

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[Mr Pigeon]

What I misunderstood here was that I thought a minimum wage of £15/hr was being advocated, whereas it looks like just McDonalds staff want £15/hr.

Like I posted before, it's no skin off the Government's nose what the minimum wage is, they don't have to pay for it, they can make it at whatever level they like.

If you were a skilled worker you would've been able to read it properly in the first place.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Everyone looking forward to a four day week then?

And four days' wages?

Looking at recent posts in this thread looks like someone's borrowed the Jeremy Corbyn's book of economics from the library.

 

[OohAahMartial]

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I would interpret the trend as people tactically switching from the small parties to the main 2, with Brexit Party completely collapsing and Tories picking almost all of them up, while Lib Dems are also on a downtrend that is mirrored by a Labour uptrend, probably the issue of splitting the vote. Very surprising poll regarding class, but might be due to inclusion of pensioners as working class, and the working class leave vote going Tory. And Corbyn doing terribly personally in all polls. All pointing towards a significant Tory majority.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

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I would interpret the trend as people tactically switching from the small parties to the main 2, with Brexit Party completely collapsing and Tories picking almost all of them up, while Lib Dems are also on a downtrend that is mirrored by a Labour uptrend, probably the issue of splitting the vote. Very surprising poll regarding class, but might be due to inclusion of pensioners as working class, and the working class leave vote going Tory. And Corbyn doing terribly personally in all polls. All pointing towards a significant Tory majority.

How in the absolute feck can nearly half of working class people vote Tory? It genuinely boggles the mind.

 

[Jippy]

Election candidate to change name to 'Mr Clacton Brexit'

'We need to respect the referendum result and the democracy that our forefathers fought and died to preserve.'

https://www.clactonandfrintongazett...bke6f1HpBYVlxHMrRHtfDqU_yhexK_-WS8Advye4VWid0