My opinion of them has stayed the same under Emery. They are obviously lacking in key areas but I do rate Aubamayeng alot. The truth is liverpool are just so good and the sooner us United fans accept it the easier it will be to see them win a premier league.
Unai Emery - Ex-Arsenal Manager
- Thread starter crossy1686
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Their defenders are just really bad - finishing 5th or 6th is in line with Arsenal's squad strength
Well Wenger did do a great job getting the team consistently at 4th! it's not easy as it seems is it!
Wenger didn’t start him much either. Even before they signed Aubameyang.
It’s weird because the Aubameyang-Lacazette partnership is one of the few things they have going for them. Play to your strengths.
There's idiots on here who argued that their defense is better than ours
Spot on...
Regardless whether Emery will do a good season or not, it doesn't change my mind that Wenger should've been gone a long time ago for good. It takes time until you can reap the harvest. It's possible that Emery isn't even the right guy to bear fruits in the end but it doesn't mean Wenger should remain and bring another mediocre season to this club. It's refreshing to see that, at least, The Gunners are trying to put its own house in order instead of keeping making the same mistakes again and again. This ship really needed to sail away.
Emery is a cup manager. Even at Sevilla, where he won three Europa league titles, he struggled to make much of an impact in the league. Don't think they ever finished in the top 4 under him. Then at PSG he lost the title in the first season to Monaco, who, tbh, had by then developed a very good team.
I think he is performing as per expectations at Arsenal. They were never a contender for a top 4 spot with their squad and spending. Europa is their only chance to shine and Emery should do well over there with his experience. He would have done his job if wins that for Arsenal come May. To go back to the top Arsenal will need to spend a lot of cash, which isn't happening under Stan. I have friends who are Nuggets fans and all of them hate him with a passion.
Also, Arsenal finished 5th and 6th the last two seasons. It isn't that Wenger was let go even after he was getting top 4. He was canned (or not given a new contract) after he failed to achieve the bare minimum.
I think he is performing as per expectations at Arsenal. They were never a contender for a top 4 spot with their squad and spending. Europa is their only chance to shine and Emery should do well over there with his experience. He would have done his job if wins that for Arsenal come May. To go back to the top Arsenal will need to spend a lot of cash, which isn't happening under Stan. I have friends who are Nuggets fans and all of them hate him with a passion.
Also, Arsenal finished 5th and 6th the last two seasons. It isn't that Wenger was let go even after he was getting top 4. He was canned (or not given a new contract) after he failed to achieve the bare minimum.
People blaming the squad for their failure, does that mean Wenger was unfairly critizied, whether he should go or not, when he was achieving exactly same results as his successor while everyone was treating him as a laughing stock but now giving all the excuses for his successor ?
Doesn't mean Wenger shouldn't have gone, but mocking him for results (and some trophies) while excusing his successor for achieving exactly same results looks me it's just that thanks to Emery still having the 'new manager aura' around him. He's failing to get anymore of these players and we all know they aren't going to splash the cash on new squad, so they will stay as they're most probably.
Doesn't mean Wenger shouldn't have gone, but mocking him for results (and some trophies) while excusing his successor for achieving exactly same results looks me it's just that thanks to Emery still having the 'new manager aura' around him. He's failing to get anymore of these players and we all know they aren't going to splash the cash on new squad, so they will stay as they're most probably.
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That’s mainly because Wenger had the team for a long time and literally any player that was in the squad was one that he personally wanted and bought. Whereas for emery, he is in the job for six months. So yeah he is given a bit more leeway than Wenger was. But he will be critiscized if this continues in the next season whereas Wenger got a bit more leeway then.
Wenger was getting things wrong tactically as well.
The difference is Wenger built this squad over 22 years while Emery has had about 5 minutes. Give him a couple of seasons like Klopp, Pep, Poch et all were before judging him.
Yep, we have been left too far behind to recover. Like you said, the best we can hope is a cup where you don't need to be best to win it, imo.
He spent money on that defence and they seem worse off.
Mourinho having us languishing behind this Arsenal team should have been enough on it's own to sack him.
Emery has done a decent job and he deserves more time before anyone criticises him. Wenger left them in an absolute mess.
Emery has done a decent job and he deserves more time before anyone criticises him. Wenger left them in an absolute mess.
Well they have conceded less goals than we have despite getting hammered by Liverpool.There's idiots on here who argued that their defense is better than ours
I'm less convinced of all of that. You're sure Wenger was taking you backwards. I think that's one of two possibilities, the other being that you were going backwards because other teams were doing exceptionally well and your resources are so limited you couldn't stop it.
I can't speak for the Arsenal fan base but many people on here were convinced Wenger had loads of money he just chose not to spend. It's not looking that way so far. He made some bad signings like Ozil, he made some good signings like Aubameyang - certainly not terrible overall, even in the last few years.
If an exceptional manager was brought in to replace Wenger then of course that would be an improvement, but there aren't many of them and it seemed incredibly unlikely they would choose Arsenal. One of the best of the rest like Emery? I think he might end up continuing the trend. Arsenal fans are more forgiving of him now but let's see where things are in 12 months time.
My main point was honestly to ask people whether they thought it would be easy to improve upon Wenger straight away, because he was doing not just a below par job but an outrageously bad one? I didn't think that was the case, and from what I remember many if not most on here thought it was.
That wouldn't address many of the problems inside the club that resulted from Wenger wanting to maintain full control of the football side and (at least) Gazidis wanting to update the structure top a director of football. That's the first issue that is going to have long term problems when Wenger wanted to maintain the old school outlook where the Manager is boss of the football side. Period. He was quite unequivocal about this for years even making fun of the name "Director of Football" implying it was some kind of traffic cop of footballs.
Then some of the kick-down effects are the favoritism which we saw not just with the players but with the backroom staff - which is very problematic long term. For contrast look at your own Alex Ferguson. He seven (?) assistant managers during his time while Wenger only had two. Even the second Steve Bould only happened because Pat Rice decided to retire completely. This is a fairly big contrast in style here because while Ferguson was always keeping things fresh mixing in new approaches from different assistants, Wenger's prizing of loyalty above all else can hurt long term but not allowing for flexibility and adaptation quick enough.
And the favoritism also played into recruitment of new players. The most awful example is scout Giles Grimandi. To illustrate this, one of Wenger's friends tipped him off about Kante while Kante still in France. Wenger sends Grimandi and Grimandi reports back nope nothing about Kante, average player. Several different reports of this incident and I believe one has Wengers friend insisting three separate times to sign Kante, he would be perfect to balance the Arsenal side and all three times Grimandi overrules and says nope Kante sucks. And Wenger sticks with his scout for some kooky reason. Could have had Kante for 5m but Wenger placed too much trust in his favorite scout Grimandi.
Then the favoritism carried over to the players like Ozil and others that would never get benched. The medical staff that had some whoppers over the past 10 years. etc. There is a known cognitive bias at play here actually - the endowment effect (This bias occurs when we overvalue something that we own, regardless of its objective market value). In fact a lot of the ways Wenger grew stale in the last few years map perfectly to well known cognitive biases.
I've seen very similar effects in other fields. Someone that was once great in their field might not be 30 years later due to a combination of things - beliefs becoming too rigid and unadaptable to the new, too much endowment in people that you have already chosen and won't get rid of despite the fact their performances have waned and fallen off. Complacency.
Your alternative explanation that its simply other clubs doesn't address any of these internal problems that would have existed regardless of what other clubs are doing.
Are they any better than what they were under Wenger?
I just can’t see it. Nothing special at all this lot. We will finish above them.
I just can’t see it. Nothing special at all this lot. We will finish above them.
As of now I would say no they aren't. They have been riding their luck a lot during their unbeaten run. It's still early of course, Emery needs more transfer windows.
I'm not saying replacing Wenger wasn't the right decision. I agree he was complacent and was no longer a great manager because of that. I'm saying the cause of your mediocrity wasn't largely down to Wenger, but the club's situation and the situation of the clubs around Arsenal. Now his outsized role in the club is replaced, we'll see how easy it is to make all of these changes and end up with positive outcomes. You're very aware of all of the problems that come with Wenger's outdated approach, but it's very easy to ignore problems you don't yet know about with the new approach.
My impression was people thought improving on Wenger in the long run was an inevitability. I think it's a big challenge because there's no reason Arsenal can get a manager significantly better, and no reason to expect the Director of Football, Head Scout and whoever else Arsenal put in place will do a great job. Arsenal are not an attractive proposition for elite personnel at this moment, or for the foreseeable future. The resources aren't there.
How did Chocula and his bunch of fannies not lose for 20 odd games? Baffling!
Torreira is a little cnut too, oh and Xhaka!
Torreira is a little cnut too, oh and Xhaka!
We will overtake them in GD pretty soon.
If you don't know about them then you aren't ignoring them, you simply aren't aware. And you are also just assuming that new problems are arising that are equally as bad. I strongly disagree with you there. Those of us that follow the club already see a lot of improvements being made behind the scenes. The fruit of those improvements will take years because the slow rot that happened under Wenger took years. We don't expect everything to be sorted out but its quite obvious there have already been improvements.
Also I don't buy the resource line, you make it out like only Real, City and United can afford to hire good personnel. I guess if you only believe there are enough good personnel in the entire world to outfit the top 5 sides or then your implications might be valid but as it is Arsenal is one of the 10 richest clubs in the world. That's plenty of resources to do better than Wenger had been doing and its clear that the club's approach now is already better than it has been. And spunking a fortune for "elite personnel" like Mourniho is no guarantee either.
I quite like arsenal and would like my little bro to see them win a title (he got into football a little after your last title) so if what you're saying pans out I'd be happy enough on the whole. I just think where you are now is where you'll be for a very long time. Making the changes you're talking about may mitigate that or they may not make much of a difference at all, but in either case my original point was something else altogether. It wasn't a question asked to arsenal fans but United fans. Naturally those with an outside perspective have a different view to those with an inside perspective. I thought the view on here about getting rid of Wenger, purely from a short term results perspective, was overwhelmingly positive. I'm not sure the evidence fits thar narrative so far.
Sack him now and bring in Mourinho to salvage their season.
The way I see everything takes a little luck but working on the most solid foundation gives you the best chance of getting lucky. Sometimes I think money is a little overrated. Its obvious very important but Chelsea won 2 league titles while United and City both had much greater resources into the current side. Chelsea's last two league winning sides were much closer to the Arsenal/Liverpool resource level than the United/City resource level and Leicester of course had far less resources and just got really lucky with the stars aligning perfectly for them. So all that can be done should be and from there its just getting lucky with no injuries like Leicester or finding a transfer gem like Suarez and Salah were for Liverpool. I'm not too arsed about "winning the title" really. If it happens awesome I'll celebrate, if not oh well.
Chelsea seems like a very odd example to cite!
Chelsea have won more in the 15 years that Abramovich has taken over than the rest of their history combined. They didn't win the league for 50 years before Abramovich bought the club, and only once in their entire history at that point; since he owned Chelsea they've won the league 5 times. Plus, they've won the Champions League, the Europa League, the FA Cup 5 times, the League Cup 3 times, and won 2 major trophies in a season on four occasions.
This is despite the fact that in this period they've been managed by Mourinho, Grant, Scolari, Wilkins, Hiddink, Ancelotti, Villas-Boas, di Matteo, Benitez, Mourinho, Holland, Hiddink, Conte and Sarri. They've had zero stability or structure, but it hasn't mattered at all because the money has kept being pumped in.
Now even they are struggling to compete at the very top table, and to match the investment of others. That is the climate that exists now. It's a completely different climate compared to when Arsenal were winning the league.
You see issues and problems in the back office that were causing problems at Arsenal. But none of those things were perceived to be problems when Arsenal were perceived to be doing well. They were only raised as issues when finishing in the top four, winning the FA Cup, and making the Champions League knockout stages was deemed unsatisfactory.
The reality is that the structure and approach of Arsenal and Wenger probably had nothing to do with why Arsenal's level has declined. And when they were at that level of regularly finishing in the top four, etc, far from being disgruntled, supporters should have recognised that it was the best that they could reasonably hope for with their budget and investment.
Pochettino is continually lauded as a genius, but that's because the level of expectation at Spurs is so much lower than Arsenal. Because they haven't had that period of being a powerhouse club that wins the league, has a great team, and can compete with anyone in Europe. Undoubtedly, Pochettino has done a great job, but it's all a case of perception. He hasn't done measurably better than Wenger in his so-called lean years, in fact he has arguably done worse as he has won nothing for Spurs.
If Arsenal under Wenger had lost 1-3 at home to Wolves, as Spurs did the other day, he would have been absolutely hammered. By both fans and media. I doubt Pochettino will experience such criticism, and will remain favourite to take over at Man United and possibly Real Madrid.
But where Spurs are now is the best that they can reasonably hope for. They won't win the league. Eventually this team will break up. And they won't have the budget to rebuild it. They have been lucky that they got Ali for £5 million, while Kane came through their youth system. That's £300 million worth of players for next to nothing. When they have to replace them, they won't be able to do it with £5 million. When Eriksen goes, they won't be able to replace him with another midfielder who costs £10 million. They're going to be in exactly the same position Arsenal were in when they were selling Cole, Henry, Vieira, Fabregas, Nasri, van Persie, Sanchez, and many others.
And then, on top of that, Arsenal have the disadvantage of the owners not really caring about results. They're not really bothered. It's just a cash cow for them. So they would struggle to compete anyway, but this is obviously hamstringing them considerably.
You might have to go through 5 or 6 managers before this dawns on many Arsenal fans. We're Arsenal Football Club! It's not good enough! Unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything any more.
This illustrates what I mean. United/City are at the top of PL riches. When you look at Chelsea's wages and transfers they are more on par with Liverpool and Arsenal than United/City tier.
So for three years straight, neither of the two richest sides won the league. Chelsea's spending level has been closer to Liverpool/Arsenal than United/City
and this:
"Figures have been released for the 2016-17 campaign:
1. Manchester City
League position: 3rd (Premier League)
Total wage bill: £264.1m
2. Manchester United
League position: 6th (Premier League)
Total wage bill: £263.5m
Notes: EFL Cup winners, Europa League winners
3. Chelsea
League position: 1st (Premier League)
Total wage bill: £219.7m
Notes: FA Cup runners-up
4. Liverpool
League position: 4th (Premier League)
Total wage bill: £207.5m
5. Arsenal
League position: 5th (Premier League)
Total wage bill: £199.4m
Notes: FA Cup winners
https://www.planetfootball.com/quic...-of-wages-in-the-premier-league-championship/
Yes, but Chelsea have benefited from a period of over a decade where they spent stupendous amounts of money. Now other clubs, most notably the Manchester clubs but even Liverpool over the last couple of years, are spending more. So they're going backwards. You can say this almost perfectly correlates with their financial status. When they were the biggest, they were the most successful, only challenged by United. When City came along, they were still successful, but their dominance diminished. Now they're behind other clubs financially, and they're behind them on the field as well.
But, anyway, regardless of this, unless Arsenal invest very heavily in their playing squad, it's going to be extremely difficult for them to meet the expectations of supporters. Currently, Emery is getting a bit of a free ride, but if this was a Wenger season they he'd be getting absolutely battered. If Arsenal want to reverse this trend then they're going to have to spend way more than they did in the last term of Wenger's tenure, when they made a profit in the transfer market, or this season where they signed some very much second drawer players.
That's just the reality of the current climate. It's why Everton, who used to win the league and European trophies when I was growing up, are now completely irrelevant. Arsenal aren't at that level, but for them to get to the very top, elite level...I just don't see it happening, regardless of what structure / manager is put in place.
Yeah I don't agree with this angle. Chelsea spunking 38m on Essien in 2005/06 is not relevant to their side's performance in 2015.
Whose expectations? As I have said a few times now no Arsenal supporter I personally know has any expectations. Mostly people aren't even judging until summer and then going from there. I haven't seen a single Arsenal fan with "expectations of Top 4" or anything like that. The only people I even saw bigging up that unbeaten were opposition fans more than Arsenal fans.
I wouldn't take that ArseFamTV crew as representative of anyone else.
The decision to get rid of Wenger was absolutely correct. He had run out ideas and was being constantly embarrassed. Not just by the big spenders either.
The jury is still out on Emery but he needs time
The jury is still out on Emery but he needs time
If you have no expectations then why do you want the manager out in the first place?
All their defensive reinforcements were free transfers. Tight cnuts.
Sokratis has been a solid signing, Lichtsteiner is awful, Mustafi is a liability, Kos and Monreal are old, Holding is injured and the jury is out on him. It's going to take a good while to build a solid defence, which makes the free signings of two veterans seem very shortsighted.
Haven't seen anyone calling for Emery out. And as I explained wanting Wenger out had nothing to do with expectations.
I read someone on twitter saying that they've overpaid for Lichsteiner inspite of him signing for a free, that's how bad Lichsteiner has been.
Changing Arsenal's club and footballing structure will take time.
Add that to the fact that we shouldn't really judge a manager after 5 months, I believe we'll have a better sense of Emery's potential success and path at Arsenal in about 1-1.5 years from now.
Arsenal seem to be doing the right things, although they will need to sort out increased investment from Scrooge Kroenke somehow.
Add that to the fact that we shouldn't really judge a manager after 5 months, I believe we'll have a better sense of Emery's potential success and path at Arsenal in about 1-1.5 years from now.
Arsenal seem to be doing the right things, although they will need to sort out increased investment from Scrooge Kroenke somehow.
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I don't think so. They just look a tad more potent up front but not by much (probably just some of the recent purchases settling in rather than tactics).
Didn't Mourinho get a touchline ban and a bigger fine?