the most worrying/ interesting/ pathetic/ surprising fact is this: it seems we didn't have our targets identified before the window opened. United were always known to plan two,three steps in advance. I just can't believe we were throwing offers here and there...Snejder bid is was just kick in the balls for me.
United in this Summer transfer window
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
the most worrying/ interesting/ pathetic/ surprising fact is this: it seems we didn't have our targets identified before the window opened. United were always known to plan two,three steps in advance. I just can't believe we were throwing offers here and there...Snejder bid is was just kick in the balls for me.
Martin Samuel in the Daily Mail (link).
Exactly, can it all be down to the press not afraid of angering Fergie i wonder?
Actually I've just remembered someone else missing from United's management this year. Maurice Watkins, club solicitor, director and football man - now chairman of Barnsley. He left us in the middle of last summer, but continued as an advisor after that.
He was seen as a sport law heavyweight. I don't know who his equivalent is now, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a smaller list of European contacts and less personal knowledge on the personalities involved, as well as less experience.
He was seen as a sport law heavyweight. I don't know who his equivalent is now, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a smaller list of European contacts and less personal knowledge on the personalities involved, as well as less experience.
so many changes. Sometimes I do wondered if we've handled this transition well at all or made moyes' job even more difficult.A couple of days ago someone joked that we'd try a scattergun approach of lashing in bids for any midfielder around.
When you look at all the stories coming out now, you have a list of
Khedira, Ozil, Herrera, Sneijder, Di Rossi, Fellani, where we're quoted as putting bids in!
Add in the obvious Fabregas saga, and potentially Thiago, (although people have tried to water that down with we weren't interested talk|), and add in Baines and Coentrao (sp?) and you can't say that the approach has been anything short of chaotic madness.
Smashing a 35-40m bid in on Khedira on the last day? Would that have been instead of Fellaini? Presumably so. Meaning it's likely he was well down our list of targets, hence waiting way beyond the clause expiring.
The only other possibility is that we arrogantly thought we could stroll into Everton and pick him up at will well below the clause.
Either way both are ridiculous methods
When you look at all the stories coming out now, you have a list of
Khedira, Ozil, Herrera, Sneijder, Di Rossi, Fellani, where we're quoted as putting bids in!
Add in the obvious Fabregas saga, and potentially Thiago, (although people have tried to water that down with we weren't interested talk|), and add in Baines and Coentrao (sp?) and you can't say that the approach has been anything short of chaotic madness.
Smashing a 35-40m bid in on Khedira on the last day? Would that have been instead of Fellaini? Presumably so. Meaning it's likely he was well down our list of targets, hence waiting way beyond the clause expiring.
The only other possibility is that we arrogantly thought we could stroll into Everton and pick him up at will well below the clause.
Either way both are ridiculous methods
As long as the events of the transfer window add to the experience of our guys, it's not hugely bothersome imo. I just hope they've learnt a lot of lessons from it. As far as being made the laughing stock goes...feck that. Couldn't care less about it. Let our football do the talking, as usual
We decided to be newly open with the press, and all it did was help make us look a bunch of cnuts.
Lesson learned, hopefully.
Thiago aged 22 and Ozil aged 24 our midfield would have been world class for the next 10 years at least, we should have done everything possible to get them.
Not sure we a chance of getting thiago.
Ozil was definitely gettable. We just didn't want him.
We lost SAF, Gill, Watkins all of whom would have had personal contacts that either bypassed the noisier agents or allowed us to keep them at arm's length. We may even have decided that Mendes for example was becoming too powerful and too expensive to use as a go-between - it's certainly surprising that we ended up doing nothing in Spain or Portugal given the numbers of players on the move there.
Our novices were out of their depth in shark infested seas and easy meat for rumours, leaks and gossip. When we tried to dodge the gossip by being more direct, we just looked over eager and a bit desperate.
Or something.
I think we could have also got Thiago all we had to do was persuade the player with wages promises etc, we should have gone for him as soon as the season ended before Pep.
Maybe we need to be looking at why the club allowed that to happen. The board must have known they were struggling. Did they just sit there and let them flounder. What has it achieved or is it just 'It wasn't our fault attitude'. Let Woodward and Moyes take all the flak while they sit behind the barricades. They are happy to bask in the glory, but have been quiet as hell when there has been a mini crisis. All that experience on the board. If they using it as a steep learning curve, I hope it works and doesn't destroy their confidence in future transfer dealings.
Can anyone remember when Busby went? Wilf McGuiness, did Busby chose him and why did it go wrong. Then Frank O'Farrell. Just hope Moyes has the bottle to not let all this bother him.
McGuiness had been around United his whole career, first as a player then as a coach. He had been reserve team manager for a few years when Busby retired, so I imagine the club figured it was the obvious next step. Why it went wrong? That's a massive question and likely discussed in other threads.
Aye - it's easy enough to get the cards mixed up here: A lot seems to have gone wrong this window, but those two players may not be relevant examples at all: Thiago may have been unattainable in practice (the Pep factor) and Özil, whilst being a brilliant player, wasn't a type we desperately needed. Like it or not, Rooney ended up staying - and with both him and Kagawa around, Özil would've been overkill in a sense. It's understandable, in short, if we weren't seriously in for either player.
Generally, I'm a bit confused. Not really angry (we did, finally, buy a midfielder!) but definitely confused. To me it looks like we waited as long as we did to seal the Fellaini deal for two possible reasons: We wanted a double deal, including Baines as well - and the latter part of that equation just didn't work out. Or, we assumed that Everton would let Fellaini go for less than his release clause once it had expired and nobody else had made a move for him.
The latter obviously turned out to be a bloody stupid assumption - and one might even question the reasoning behind it in itself: Everton weren't desperate to sell - so why would they lower the price? The former is questionable as well, as I don't personally see Baines as a necessity at all.
I said weeks ago that we should wait until the window closes to make any judgement here - and now, well: The verdict has to be that the new people in charge still have something to prove. We don't know the details, but there is much to suggest we weren't exactly on top of things. If the stories about last minute approaches for the likes of Khedira and Sneijder (Christ!) are true, this surely smacks of something close to desperation - and it doesn't look good at all.
Still, we signed a midfielder. We actually did sign a midfielder - and I think he'll improve us. So, fair enough - let's give Microphone a chance, and see how this pans out. But there are questions that need answering here, that seems clear.
Good question. Maybe it was a stitch-up. Woodward and even Moyes could be disliked by the back room staff. Maybe that's why they kept quiet, an easy way to bring Woodward down a peg or two or to get revenge.
Or, according to some accounts, we didn't want him at first but then changed our mind on deadline day when it was too late. So many conflicting stories and we don't come out of any of them looking great.
Moyes was under pressure from fans and media to make a stamp on the team, with people claiming he'll turn us into another Everton. By mentioning the players he wanted to sign publicly, it was a way for hi to say to everyone 'I know I am at United, and I know I a expected to aim higher than I have been'
Exactly. In retrospect it looks like a mistake but that's only because Moyes got fecked over by those who were handling the transfers.
Why are we blaming Moyes for this? Are we expecting him to do the negotiations and sign the players himself? That's not the manager's job. The manager job is to name the players he wants and his valuation for them, and at most contact the player in question to convince him to join the club. Other than that, it's not the manager's job, it should be the club that takes care of the rest.
It helps if the manager names realistic targets and sets realistic valuations. Moyes did neither.
You were privy to the discussions were you?
Opinions have changed since this was posted, and rightly so if true.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/a-l...ry-piece-on-our-transfers-this-summer.376601/
The farce of Moyes transfer targets and valuations is all mostly in the public domain in case you hadn't noticed.
Which valuations? Not paying £30.5m up front for Ander Herrera? Refusing to pay over £15m for Baines? As for Fabregas, the club were led to believe he wanted to come, it didn't work out, but when it comes to a player like Fabregas you give it every opportunity to do so. The only farce this transfer window was paying over Fellaini's release clause, and we have absolutely no idea why that occurred.
I hope so, I don't want him to get to the end of the season with no deal in place as I think he'll leave.
I'm not going to comment further if this is what you believe.
No one's actually sure we did either, lot of reports saying we paid 23.5, and Fellaini's transfer request made up the difference.
Aye, that's true, although Everton have denied that. Thinking about it, making the Fabregas bid public was a major mistake, but that wasn't Moyes, it was Woodward and he won't be doing that again.
Depends on whether you believe Everton, I suppose, and they've made utter cnuts of themselves all window, so I pretty much don't.
We went for Fabregas and seemed to wait on that for a long time. I'd say most people could have said when it started that we weren't going to get him. We went for Herrera very, very late. Yeah, I'd say a lot of this summer is on Moyes. The good news is I'm sure he'll be up to speed very quickly.
It doesn't matter how late we went in for Herrera, we weren't going to buy him unless we paid his release clause, which was something we weren't prepared to do. It's okay saying Fabregas was never going to happen, the club didn't think that was the case, and I think we should try to sign players like that, it was only a farce because Woodward made it public. We've got Fellaini and hopefully we can spend the next eight months identifying the creative midfielder we need, it isn't the disaster people are making out it is.
The spin begins:
Manchester United baffled by criticisms of summer window policy
Manchester United are privately mystified and annoyed at the widespread criticism of their transfer-window dealings.
Target achieved: Maroune Fellaini, in training with Belgium team-mate Romelu Lukaku on Wednesday, is the man Manchester United wanted Photo: GETTY IMAGES
The champions brought in David Moyes’s No1 target, Marouane Fellaini, and managed to retain the heavyweight services of Wayne Rooney, who had flirted with a move to Chelsea.
Supporters, though, wanted more.
It is understood that Manchester United did not want to be rushed into the wrong signings, or what they considered overpriced signings like Ander Herrera. They expect to be busier in the next two windows, not necessarily January, but certainly next summer.
However frustrating in the short term for fans who understandably want the team strengthened, the club’s long-term commitment to Moyes means they take a more phlegmatic, longer view.
The club now have time to work with Moyes, establishing his targets.
Related Articles
“This was always going to be a difficult transfer window with a new manager,’’ the United source said, “but the club wouldn’t change anything we did in the transfer window.
"We’ve kept Wayne, our biggest concern. We’ve got a lot of talent in with Fellaini and Guillermo Varela [the Uruguayan full-back]. [Wilfried] Zaha is in the squad and Adnan [Januzaj] has been promoted. No one’s gone out. We’ve got a big squad.”
Big but not heavyweight, argue many supporters.
With Moyes newly arrived, there was an understanding inside Carrington and Old Trafford that he should be given time to examine his squad.
He knew 15 or so of the United players well, having set up Everton to face them over recent seasons, but the club wanted Moyes to get to know the rest of the squad, assessing their potential before making moves in the transfer market.
The champions have been perplexed at claims that they struggled to do deals such as the Herrera saga. The club have been tracking the Athlétic Bilbao midfielder for two years. After discussions at Old Trafford involving Moyes and chief executive Edward Woodward, the club decided on a budget for a 24-year-old who has yet to represent Spain.
An inquiry was made to Bilbao, and a £26 million bid reportedly offered, but it became clear that United would get Herrera only through meeting the buy-out clause of £30.5 million.
“The fee was too much,’’ the United source said. “He’s a very good player but not a top, top player.”
United have huge resources to invest in players, both in transfer fees and salaries, but are determined to run the club as a business and not over-pay. They were particularly frustrated to miss out on Sir Alex Ferguson’s No 1 midfield target, Lucas Moura, in 2012 when the Brazilian went to Paris St-Germain for £40 million, beyond United’s valuation.
Having decided that £30.5 million was above their valuation of Herrera, United ended all interest in the player on Sunday. Contact was made with Athletic Bilbao and the player’s representatives to inform them of United’s decision.
The following day, transfer deadline day, United were bemused when three individuals purporting to represent the club appeared at the Spanish league offices on Monday afternoon looking to get involved in the deal.
“They were like fake sheikhs,” the United source said. “They were nothing to do with us.’’
The so-called “imposters” were actually members of a Bilbao law firm reportedly used by the Spanish club to facilitate paperwork.
On Monday, United received calls from middlemen saying they could get them Herrera. “They were just trying to insert themselves in the deal,” the United source said. “They were trying to get an introduction fee. A lot of people tried to get involved.”
United are still interested in Herrera and are understood to have spoken to his representatives again. “To spend too much at the end of the window is something the club are not going to do,” the source said.
This summer, United turned down well-known attacking midfielders who have ended up at English clubs. The champions were offered Willian, the Anzhi Makhachkala player who ended up at Chelsea but apparently was keen to join United.
The feeling within Carrington was that they had a No 10 in Rooney. Moyes, Woodward and others at the club had worked hard to ensure Rooney stayed, partly because they rate him highly and also because they did not want him leaving to strengthen rivals like Chelsea.
They repeated this mantra of “not for sale” and kept their No 10. The storm of criticism being directed at Moyes and Woodward would have been even stronger had Rooney left for Chelsea.
Four weeks ago, United were also offered Mesut Özil for substantially less than the £42.4 million for which he eventually went to Arsenal on transfer deadline day.
United liked Özil but declined the chance to pursue him again because of this belief in Rooney as their tempo-setting No 10. They also consider Shinji Kagawa an option as a creative force behind Robin van Persie.
Moyes was very interested in working with Leighton Baines again and a bid was put into Everton for
the left-back. It quickly became apparent to United that Everton could not countenance losing two players
in Baines and Fellaini, who was the less embedded.
There is also sensitivity within the club towards their current first-choice left-back, the highly respected vice-captain, Patrice Evra, who has started the season well.
There is still a concern about whether Evra can play 50 games in the season, and a move for Baines in one of the next two transfer windows cannot be discounted.
Manchester United baffled by criticisms of summer window policy
Manchester United are privately mystified and annoyed at the widespread criticism of their transfer-window dealings.
Target achieved: Maroune Fellaini, in training with Belgium team-mate Romelu Lukaku on Wednesday, is the man Manchester United wanted Photo: GETTY IMAGES
By Henry Winter, Football Correspondent
11:00PM BST 04 Sep 2013
The champions brought in David Moyes’s No1 target, Marouane Fellaini, and managed to retain the heavyweight services of Wayne Rooney, who had flirted with a move to Chelsea.
Supporters, though, wanted more.
It is understood that Manchester United did not want to be rushed into the wrong signings, or what they considered overpriced signings like Ander Herrera. They expect to be busier in the next two windows, not necessarily January, but certainly next summer.
However frustrating in the short term for fans who understandably want the team strengthened, the club’s long-term commitment to Moyes means they take a more phlegmatic, longer view.
The club now have time to work with Moyes, establishing his targets.
Related Articles
- Carrick: United set a good example
04 Sep 2013 - Everton keen to reward Baines with new deal
04 Sep 2013 - Herrera: United did not meet buy-out clause
04 Sep 2013 - Will United's inactivity backfire?
03 Sep 2013
“This was always going to be a difficult transfer window with a new manager,’’ the United source said, “but the club wouldn’t change anything we did in the transfer window.
"We’ve kept Wayne, our biggest concern. We’ve got a lot of talent in with Fellaini and Guillermo Varela [the Uruguayan full-back]. [Wilfried] Zaha is in the squad and Adnan [Januzaj] has been promoted. No one’s gone out. We’ve got a big squad.”
Big but not heavyweight, argue many supporters.
With Moyes newly arrived, there was an understanding inside Carrington and Old Trafford that he should be given time to examine his squad.
He knew 15 or so of the United players well, having set up Everton to face them over recent seasons, but the club wanted Moyes to get to know the rest of the squad, assessing their potential before making moves in the transfer market.
The champions have been perplexed at claims that they struggled to do deals such as the Herrera saga. The club have been tracking the Athlétic Bilbao midfielder for two years. After discussions at Old Trafford involving Moyes and chief executive Edward Woodward, the club decided on a budget for a 24-year-old who has yet to represent Spain.
An inquiry was made to Bilbao, and a £26 million bid reportedly offered, but it became clear that United would get Herrera only through meeting the buy-out clause of £30.5 million.
“The fee was too much,’’ the United source said. “He’s a very good player but not a top, top player.”
United have huge resources to invest in players, both in transfer fees and salaries, but are determined to run the club as a business and not over-pay. They were particularly frustrated to miss out on Sir Alex Ferguson’s No 1 midfield target, Lucas Moura, in 2012 when the Brazilian went to Paris St-Germain for £40 million, beyond United’s valuation.
Having decided that £30.5 million was above their valuation of Herrera, United ended all interest in the player on Sunday. Contact was made with Athletic Bilbao and the player’s representatives to inform them of United’s decision.
The following day, transfer deadline day, United were bemused when three individuals purporting to represent the club appeared at the Spanish league offices on Monday afternoon looking to get involved in the deal.
“They were like fake sheikhs,” the United source said. “They were nothing to do with us.’’
The so-called “imposters” were actually members of a Bilbao law firm reportedly used by the Spanish club to facilitate paperwork.
On Monday, United received calls from middlemen saying they could get them Herrera. “They were just trying to insert themselves in the deal,” the United source said. “They were trying to get an introduction fee. A lot of people tried to get involved.”
United are still interested in Herrera and are understood to have spoken to his representatives again. “To spend too much at the end of the window is something the club are not going to do,” the source said.
This summer, United turned down well-known attacking midfielders who have ended up at English clubs. The champions were offered Willian, the Anzhi Makhachkala player who ended up at Chelsea but apparently was keen to join United.
The feeling within Carrington was that they had a No 10 in Rooney. Moyes, Woodward and others at the club had worked hard to ensure Rooney stayed, partly because they rate him highly and also because they did not want him leaving to strengthen rivals like Chelsea.
They repeated this mantra of “not for sale” and kept their No 10. The storm of criticism being directed at Moyes and Woodward would have been even stronger had Rooney left for Chelsea.
Four weeks ago, United were also offered Mesut Özil for substantially less than the £42.4 million for which he eventually went to Arsenal on transfer deadline day.
United liked Özil but declined the chance to pursue him again because of this belief in Rooney as their tempo-setting No 10. They also consider Shinji Kagawa an option as a creative force behind Robin van Persie.
Moyes was very interested in working with Leighton Baines again and a bid was put into Everton for
the left-back. It quickly became apparent to United that Everton could not countenance losing two players
in Baines and Fellaini, who was the less embedded.
There is also sensitivity within the club towards their current first-choice left-back, the highly respected vice-captain, Patrice Evra, who has started the season well.
There is still a concern about whether Evra can play 50 games in the season, and a move for Baines in one of the next two transfer windows cannot be discounted.
No excuse for the Coentrao feck up?
Nor our paying more than the release clause for Fellaini (I personally find the story of Moyes not activating the clause out a sense of fairness believable, I'm just surprised that an article deatailing reasons to absolve the club of blame fails to address the issue).
Nor our paying more than the release clause for Fellaini (I personally find the story of Moyes not activating the clause out a sense of fairness believable, I'm just surprised that an article deatailing reasons to absolve the club of blame fails to address the issue).
Didn't really feck up there, tbh. Besides making a grown man cry, which is Madrid's fault.
Took a punt, Madrid backed out, hopefully we're back in for him January, or next summer, but mainly January.
They wanted Baines, it didnt happen.. it was late by the time they went for back up Coentrao, but done in time nevertheless. Madrid couldnt get cover, so declined to finalise the deal.
I was thinking why on earth didn't we bid for him sooner. I know Madrid pulled the plug but that was because we left it so late that their replacement had sodded off elsewhere.
If anything, up until Madrid changed their mind, it was quite a brilliant move for a last minute gasp. Fantastic young player(arguable a better opportunity than Baines), could have provided cover in midfield, and it was a loan to buy, just in case he didn't fit the Premiership. To get that set up in such a short time was well done. Just a shame Madrid lost their target.