Uno Draft: Round 1 - Pat_Mustard vs. GodShaveTheQueen

[Pat_Mustard]

Alright, cool - I've got only very basic ideas about the front four, for example. You did sketch out their roles & interplay in the OP, so it's more a case of me not really being able to judge and discuss this.

But perhaps just some more about how you envision them playing together? Things like:

What kind of CF role would Kocsis play in a modern 4-2-3-1?

How do Czibor and Waddle interpret their positions, how does each of them act/move in the attacking third, what are their individual strengths? I have Waddle down as a creative midfielder/winger with a good shot on him, and Czibor as more of a winger/forward (neither playing inverted here) - not sure if that's accurate or not.

I'm far from an expert on Kocsis, but my impression from the limited amount I've seen and read is that he'd be at ease in the modern game a focal point CF, and obviously the team's primary goalscorer. Similar to RVN in some ways, his link up play seemed assured and very competent (Gio posted some good stuff about this when I queried him about it in a previous draft), even though it's not a standout quality of his in an all-time sense. Again similarly to RVN, he seemed strong physically but not a proper battering ram CF in the Vieri mould, but someone who relied more on great movement and brilliant finishing as their outstanding qualities.

I agree with your take on Czibor and Waddle. The all-touches video I made of Waddle vs West Germany that I posted above is a good demonstration of his style of play, although it's commonly accepted that he was better at club level than for England generally. He did have a terrific shot (see 2:40 in that video) but was more creator than scorer, with a great cross off either foot (outside of the left foot crosses were a speciality), excellent dribbling and a fine passing range. He had plenty of variety to his play too, being comfortable coming infield or hugging the touchline.

Here's Czibor vs Benfica in the European Cup Final:


It was quite an uneven performance in terms of quality but it was notable to me that switching flanks was such a big feature of his game, which led to the superb long-range goal he scored there. He also seemed exceptionally two-footed, scoring another peach with his right here:


With that in mind I expect the trio behind Kocsis to interchange quite a bit. Abedi is a good AM in that regard, as his biggest strengths IMO were his mobility and movement as well as his dribbling - he seemed to pop up on both flanks really frequently. His goalscoring record was fairly unexceptional and he looked to be a very good passer but no Laudrup of course.

So TLDR: Kocsis as the focal point CF (should be familiar for the Adebi/Waddle duo who played off Papin for Marseille), with the trio behind him interchanging as they please

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I have no problems with either attack but I'm somewhat underwhelmed by both midfields. I'm just about going with GSTQ due to the quality of players in his attack.

They'd possibly look even more in their element in a 4-4-2, but I'm surprised that my Edwards/Pirri CM duo looks underwhelming. With the likes of Falcao, Matthaus, Xavi, Neeskens and the mighty Anderson all on the sidelines in this draft, they can more than hold their own with most opponents in terms of quality imo.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

So while I was researching Pirri and Stiles, the game to look out for was the 1968 European Cup semifinals where we beat Real Madrid en route to the final.

The reason I mention this is to not one up Stiles against Pirri. In fact, in the crucial second leg away at Bernabeu, both Stiles and Pirri had great games. United probably would have lost that tie completely in the first half of the game itself if not for Stiles.

But that is not the point. While I was reading up on the game, I came across an absolute brilliant article

https://johnludden.wordpress.com/20...ken-from-scarlet-ribbon-mufc-utdbeforefergie/

Contrary to the title, the article is not about Nobby Stiles but is a bit by bit break up of the emotional and physical ride that final was. Literally had goose bumps by the end.

The bits about Real Madrid President Santiago Bernabeu and United Manager Matt Busby by the end are just brilliant.

Do give it a read. To me, after reading this, it felt to be a bigger turnaround than even the 1999 UCL final (we were down 3-1 in this game and made a comeback).

 

[Himannv]

They'd possibly look even more in their element in a 4-4-2, but I'm surprised that my Edwards/Pirri CM duo looks underwhelming. With the likes of Falcao, Matthaus, Xavi, Neeskens and the mighty Anderson all on the sidelines in this draft, they can more than hold their own with most opponents in terms of quality imo.

Perhaps I just don't know enough about Pirri to rate him highly. Have you got some footage or more info about him as a creative player from midfield?

Perhaps it's just that I don't expect much from Abedi Pele so I feel the responsibility for creating everything lies on Pirri here.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Like a 3-4-2-1? I'm not really sure.

I reckon Jair's partnership with Mazzola fro Grande Inter makes it likely that he's mesh well with Kalle. But then Irwin is not even close to a wingback that needs to balance the other flank. As I said, I don't rate Eusebio as peak on the left and coupled with Irwin, it makes for a very underwhelming flank which would fail to take advantage against Alves tactically and it comes down to individual player quality here. Also share @Theon 's opinions on suitability of RvN. Someone more rounded like Seeler/Elkjaer would make the balance a lot better and get the best out of Kalle/Eusebio.

Pat's side is more traditional and balanced and seem to be built to counter the tactical strengths of GSTQ, but then that defence fails well short in player quality against the opposition. Walker/Alves vs RvN/Eusebio seems a bit too wide to bridge.

Hard decision this.

No-one's likely to change their stance here on the eternal Dani Alves debate, but have you watched any of Des Walker's performances for England at World Cup '90? Some proper showcases of his level there, keeping a clean sheet against the Dutch and van Basten, and playing brilliantly against West Germany too.

Some quotes from The Blizzard's review of that match:

The bigger the game, the more likely Robson was to return to his sweeper system. Butcher’s lack of pace meant he was used as the spare man, with Wright marking Klinsmann and Völler faced with the task of beating Des Walker.

Völler was injured soon after, continuing his hitherto miserable tournament, and Riedle replaced him in Walker’s pocket.

First, England’s defence had to withstand the most intense pressure of the match. Klinsmann led a two-on-two break, only to be almost contemptuously dispossessed by Walker

When Beardsley gave the ball away on the halfway line, there was barely time to blink before Walker had to get in front of Riedle at the near post to clear Brehme’s dangerous cross.

After an England corner, Augenthaler drove a fine cross-field pass to Klinsmann on the halfway line; he headed it beyond the last man Walker and seemed set to go through on goal, only for Walker to move thrillingly through the gears.

The Express estimated that Gascoigne’s value had increased from £860,000 to £6m. He was principally linked with Juventus, who ensured they had no chance of signing Des Walker by announcing they had signed him, thus engaging the wicket of Brian Clough. “They will never get their hands on Walker,” he said with approximately 100% finality.

I wouldn't dismiss RVN's chances of scoring against anyone, but Walker was a top-notch CB at his peak, and his principal weakness of quality on the ball is mitigated here by playing him between two great ball-players in Krol and Alves.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The funniest and best bit on Stiles from the above article

So badly hurt was Nobby Stiles after a kick out from Amancio in the first half that he sat pouring whisky onto an open leg wound at the half time break. The thought of not carrying on never entering Nobby’s head.

As the United players headed off back up the tunnel for the start of second half it was obvious by the demeanour of many of their opponents that they already considered the game won. It was a cockiness that riled those in red. Sensing a simmering fuse, the referee pulled aside Nobby Stiles and Amaro Amancio. Smashing his fists down, Sbardella intimated to the two that there were to be no more antics. Both nodded in agreement then rejoined their team-mates with the official’s warning already forgotten. So began the second-half with Amancio wasting no time getting in his retaliation first. Knowing Stiles was all but playing on one leg, he went to finish him off. Only then to suffer the irate Mancunian’s wrath when behind Sbardella’s back, he was knocked out cold by a right hook. The punch caused howls of derision to sweep down from the terraces. Only to be met by a gentle shrug of the shoulders from the man christened with great irony ”Happy” by long suffering team-mates. It was a marker laid down by the United man that left his Spanish opponent felled and in great pain on the turf.

From that moment Amancio’s influence waned and he disappeared as a threat. To further infuriate the masses, Stiles gently tapped the referee on the shoulder and pointed out the distraught Amancio ”He’s injured ref.” For his troubles the Mancunian was hit with a ripe tomato hurled from the crowd and a shoe that missed by an inch! Nobby Stiles would forever be known in these parts as the ”Assassin of Madrid.”

 

[MJJ]

Like a 3-4-2-1? I'm not really sure.

I reckon Jair's partnership with Mazzola fro Grande Inter makes it likely that he's mesh well with Kalle. But then Irwin is not even close to a wingback that needs to balance the other flank. As I said, I don't rate Eusebio as peak on the left and coupled with Irwin, it makes for a very underwhelming flank which would fail to take advantage against Alves tactically and it comes down to individual player quality here. Also share @Theon 's opinions on suitability of RvN. Someone more rounded like Seeler/Elkjaer would make the balance a lot better and get the best out of Kalle/Eusebio.

Pat's side is more traditional and balanced and seem to be built to counter the tactical strengths of GSTQ, but then that defence fails well short in player quality against the opposition. Walker/Alves vs RvN/Eusebio seems a bit too wide to bridge.

Hard decision this.

Alves kept peak Ronaldo quiet with ease everytime they met and dominated the whole flank.

Dunno where him being a poor defender comes from

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I wouldn't dismiss RVN's chances of scoring against anyone, but Walker was a top-notch CB at his peak, and his principal weakness of quality on the ball is mitigated here by playing him between two great ball-players in Krol and Alves.

I think Walker would have more run ins with Eusebio rather than RVN, especially with the need to cover for Alves too at times.

Now Walker had good pace which would help although I am not sure if he was the kind to cover out wide for a fullback.

Anyways, the point being I think it would be more of Eusebio vs Walker battle rather than RVN vs Walker.

 

[MJJ]

The funniest and best bit on Stiles from the above article

brilliant. He is injured ref

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Perhaps I just don't know enough about Pirri to rate him highly. Have you got some footage or more info about him as a creative player from midfield?

Perhaps it's just that I don't expect much from Abedi Pele so I feel the responsibility for creating everything lies on Pirri here.

He really needs some all-touches compilations made of him as there's bugger all by way of decent videos I can find, but here's a short one with some delightfully soothing music that at least shows his goalscoring prowess:


He looked a quality passer and just an outstanding box to box player in general to me, but I wouldn't class him as some Pirlo-style creative god either. That said, we have plenty of creativity and chance creation routes from our wide players, as well as Krol's outstanding passing from deep.

 

[2mufc0]

I rate Des Walker, he's the type of guy who would do well against pacey strong forwards.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Perhaps I just don't know enough about Pirri to rate him highly. Have you got some footage or more info about him as a creative player from midfield?

Perhaps it's just that I don't expect much from Abedi Pele so I feel the responsibility for creating everything lies on Pirri here.

Sort of unethical to not post this during the game, but Edwards and Pirri is a top notch midfield.

Pirri would come very close stylistically to Matthaus for me. Great engine, could run box to box the whole game, but also played a sweeper like Matthaus and had excellent reading of the game.

I wouldn't call him really creative like a Suarez/Falcao per se, but as a pair, Edwards and Pirri is as complementary a DM/B2B pair as it gets. From what I remember Suarez was the creative presence from midfield in Spain national team at that time while Pirri was the B2B player.

Put someone like Laudrup in front of them and that is good enough for me to even face a Matthaus-Falcao-Zidane midfield.

I like others don't know much about Abedi Pele but for someone like Laudrup or Zidane, that is as brilliant a base as it gets.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Commiserations @Pat_Mustard , was a good game.

 

[Synco]

To be honest, I don't think @Pat_Mustard should have lost that game, especially with the midfield superiority his side had. In addition to that, late discussions gave me the impression of a well constructed setup & quality players in fitting roles, blending well with each other.

But GSTQ's team has a great basis in many ways, and with a few adjustments it should be a damn good side for the upcoming rounds.

 

[Gio]

I rate Des Walker, he's the type of guy who would do well against pacey strong forwards.

Yeah. Although Eusebio and Rummenigge looked potentially devastating for GSTQ, both Walker and Schnellinger look like decent fits for those man-to-man assignments. I thought Waddle would be the match-winner here.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

To be honest, I don't think @Pat_Mustard should have lost that game, especially with the midfield superiority his side had.

I agree. I didn't expect to win that game. Pat probably didn't get enough time to post throughout the game or the scoreline would have been different IMO.

I thought Waddle would be the match-winner here.

My original plan was to play Irwin at RWB (considering Czibor was the biggest threat and didn't know how would Jair be received) and Bale at LWB (with Ruggeri covering). But Waddle and Alves was too good a flank.

Think moving Irwin to left with Kolo covering would have been good enough to handle Waddle and all his zones (cutting in or running out or overlaps). I wouldn't have expected him to be the match winner to be honest.

My match winners probably would have been one of Pat's midfielders or Jair on my side.

 

[Gio]

I agree. I didn't expect to win that game. Pat probably didn't get enough time to post throughout the game or the scoreline would have been different IMO.



My original plan was to play Irwin at RWB (considering Czibor was the biggest threat and didn't know how would Jair be received) and Bale at LWB (with Ruggeri covering). But Waddle and Alves was too good a flank.

Think moving Irwin to left with Kolo covering would have been good enough to handle Waddle and all his zones (cutting in or running out or overlaps). I wouldn't have expected him to be the match winner to be honest.

My match winners probably would have been one of Pat's midfielders or Jair on my side.

Yes - he was my main other consideration which is why it was such a tight match for me. He looked really well set here. Couldn't really see Pat's FBs pushing up much, especially Schnellinger. So Jair motoring down after Czibor had gone for a wander would have been difficult to defend against.

 

[Synco]

I agree. I didn't expect to win that game. Pat probably didn't get enough time to post throughout the game or the scoreline would have been different IMO.

Although, when all's said and done, it would have been a pity to see your team go out, because much of it looks really, really good - I like the backline + GK, the front three, the flanks. It was just the center that wasn't well suited to connect it all, imo. Looking forward to see how it develops in the next round(s).

Good thing is you can now go and nick Pat's CM

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Although, when all's said and done, it would have been a pity to see your team go out, because much of it looks really, really good - I like the backline + GK, the front three, the flanks. It was just the center that wasn't well suited to connect it all, imo. Looking forward to see how it develops in the next round(s).

Good thing is you can now go and nick Pat's CM

Cheers mate.

You should play in one of these things. I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts and the way you analyze and question these things. Not just in this game (although I have failed to convince you in my last 2 games )

 

[Synco]

Cheers mate.

You should play in one of these things. I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts and the way you analyze and question these things. Not just in this game (although I have lost to convince you in my last 2 games )

Thanks - I've been asked once before, but it's better not to do it, for reasons of self-protection. As I said then, there should be a parallel second life just for internet & gaming.

Also, my grasp of tactics isn't very good. I reckon it would seriously hurt my chances when I try to own my opponent in a discussion while having to ask what "attacking the channels" actually means.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Thanks - I've been asked once before, but it's better not to do it, for reasons of self-protection. As I said then, there should be a parallel second life just for internet & gaming.

Also, my grasp of tactics isn't very good. I reckon it would seriously hurt my chances when I try to own my opponent in a discussion while having to ask what "attacking the channels" actually means.

Haha fair enough. If you ever want to pair up with someone as an AM, you could post in the new drafts thread if you change your mind. Plenty of people usually pair up.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Commiserations @Pat_Mustard , was a good game.

Well played mate. I enjoyed that match - plenty of interesting discussion and it was good to see some less familiar players featuring.

I agree. I didn't expect to win that game. Pat probably didn't get enough time to post throughout the game or the scoreline would have been different IMO.

I was narrowly leading early on and started leaking votes as soon as I began posting so I should have kept my fecking mouth shut . Honestly, it looked 50/50 to me beforehand so I didn't mind losing this one at all, especially as I was too lazy to do a proper selling job on Abedi, not that I think he was really good enough to be a proper vote-winner in this company. I liked your choice of WBs too, and it was particularly refreshing to see Irwin's attacking game getting properly highlighted for once even though I'm sure you knew it would be questioned.

To be honest, I don't think @Pat_Mustard should have lost that game, especially with the midfield superiority his side had. In addition to that, late discussions gave me the impression of a well constructed setup & quality players in fitting roles, blending well with each other.

But GSTQ's team has a great basis in many ways, and with a few adjustments it should be a damn good side for the upcoming rounds.

Yeah. Although Eusebio and Rummenigge looked potentially devastating for GSTQ, both Walker and Schnellinger look like decent fits for those man-to-man assignments. I thought Waddle would be the match-winner here.

Cheers lads! Glad to see Waddle getting some appreciation here. I probably veer towards overrating him but he was ridiculously good to watch at his peak (and even beyond it during his later career at Sheffield Wednesday), and I do think his form for Marseille gets overlooked a bit, as they were one of the best teams around back then and he was clearly one of their star players. Agreed on the potential of GSTQ's team moving forward. That's a mental assortment of attacking talent he's assembled, and with a little bit more quality at CM he'll be a tough opponent for anyone. For my team, I was just pissed off that I didn't get to finish my drafting with a European player. I wanted the unpicked Rivera, and I think he'd have strengthened my team massively.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Glad to see Waddle getting some appreciation here. I probably veer towards overrating him but he was ridiculously good to watch at his peak (and even beyond it during his later career at Sheffield Wednesday), and I do think his form for Marseille gets overlooked a bit, as they were one of the best teams around back then and he was clearly one of their star players

I hadn't watched Waddle before so thought of down playing him before the game until I watched his clips. Him with Alves looked as complimentary as it gets