US Politics
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Its almost always a local issue. In the case of Columbia, their own administration apparently called in the NYPD to get rid of the protesters from their campus after some of them moved from the tent encampment into the campus buildings.
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"almost always a local issue" yeah right
No, he is in charge of Netanyahu.
Democrats
. The holders of free speech, the defenders of equality (but not for arabs).It is not his decision, but didn't the white house tweet in support for the college's decision and criticized the students? So not his decision, but he would definitely be doing the same if he was in that position. It tells us a bit about his personality, he so all in in supporting israel he's ok with not allowing peaceful protests. Isn't the US all about supporting peaceful protests everywhere else in the world?
Even more than that:
Biden started his campaign in 2020 with an ad that referred to Trump saying about that Charlottesville Nazis that there were "fine people on both sides". Trump did not direct the state or university police then, in fact it was a Democratic city in a Democratic state. But everyone understood the danger of Trump legitimising those Nazis.
It's his decision, though. Maybe not directly, but this stuff has direct links to his actions over the past seven months.
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Sometimes here in LA various protestor groups will shut down the freeways by walking out onto the lanes with a human chain and sitting down. Traffic in the best of times is a nightmare here, and these protests do get headlines but in my view they alienate everyone. Making tens of thousands of people two hours late for where they were going has a serious knock on effect, not just the obvious things like people in emergency situations.
To me, the people camping out on universities and colleges are like the freeway protestors, except much worse. It's a protest devoid of historical context. For the tens of thousands of graduating seniors, their graduation ceremonies are being scaled back or canceled out of safety concerns, and these are the same kids who lost a year of high school to the Covid shut down. So the protestors are taking away the rights of others for their cause, which I object to. In the case of Columbia, the students were talked to, given an ultimatum, and the students chose to think they were in a movie. They are now being expelled/suspended by the dozens, and the ones who vandalized school property will have to face vandalism charges.
Some might say these are necessary acts in pursuit of noble aims, but I disagree. Where was the student outrage and protests and camp outs when Syria murdered nearly a million people? Or protests for the innocents killed in Sudan? Russian invasion of Ukraine? Myanmar? Nigeria? Burkina Faso? Mexico? Mali? Congo? Ethiopia? Pakistan? Haiti? Colombia? India? Afghanistan? The one difference between all of those and these protests is that this involves Jews and Israel. (And yes, the US supplies money, arms, materiel, and intelligence to most if not all of those conflicts, overtly or covertly).
After the terror attacks on 9/11, the US launched a war of choice against Iraq, which had nothing to do with the attacks, and later tried to pin some flimsy story on Hussein to justify it. No one knows the actual deaths and casualties, because we made sure they would never know, but the estimates are hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed. Where were the student protests then in favor of the Taliban or Isis? The student protests now are parroting Hamas talking points and achieving the goals of Hamas, which is to undermine support for Israel (and eventually the destruction of Israel and murder of all the Jews - as they helpfully point out in their own foundational charter).
At the end of the day I find all of these protests disingenuous. No one wants innocent people killed, solider or civilian - no one except the terrorists who launched the Oct 7 attacks and their fellow travelers. For people in the US, including students, it's easy to see the suffering of the people in Gaza and to feel empathy and to want to end their suffering. I think we can all agree that it's horrific and awful to witness such carnage. Here's where our paths diverge, though: I think the way to end these hostilities is for Hamas to submit to the demands of the Israelis. This includes releasing all of the hostage as well as turning over the leaders and perpetrators of the Oct 7 attacks. It's similar to the ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia: war makes monsters of us all, both sides have committed atrocities, both sides have committed crimes against humanity, and both sides should be held accountable. The student protests are more focused on the destruction of Israel than in the cessation of hostilities, or even of justice.
To me, the people camping out on universities and colleges are like the freeway protestors, except much worse. It's a protest devoid of historical context. For the tens of thousands of graduating seniors, their graduation ceremonies are being scaled back or canceled out of safety concerns, and these are the same kids who lost a year of high school to the Covid shut down. So the protestors are taking away the rights of others for their cause, which I object to. In the case of Columbia, the students were talked to, given an ultimatum, and the students chose to think they were in a movie. They are now being expelled/suspended by the dozens, and the ones who vandalized school property will have to face vandalism charges.
Some might say these are necessary acts in pursuit of noble aims, but I disagree. Where was the student outrage and protests and camp outs when Syria murdered nearly a million people? Or protests for the innocents killed in Sudan? Russian invasion of Ukraine? Myanmar? Nigeria? Burkina Faso? Mexico? Mali? Congo? Ethiopia? Pakistan? Haiti? Colombia? India? Afghanistan? The one difference between all of those and these protests is that this involves Jews and Israel. (And yes, the US supplies money, arms, materiel, and intelligence to most if not all of those conflicts, overtly or covertly).
After the terror attacks on 9/11, the US launched a war of choice against Iraq, which had nothing to do with the attacks, and later tried to pin some flimsy story on Hussein to justify it. No one knows the actual deaths and casualties, because we made sure they would never know, but the estimates are hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed. Where were the student protests then in favor of the Taliban or Isis? The student protests now are parroting Hamas talking points and achieving the goals of Hamas, which is to undermine support for Israel (and eventually the destruction of Israel and murder of all the Jews - as they helpfully point out in their own foundational charter).
At the end of the day I find all of these protests disingenuous. No one wants innocent people killed, solider or civilian - no one except the terrorists who launched the Oct 7 attacks and their fellow travelers. For people in the US, including students, it's easy to see the suffering of the people in Gaza and to feel empathy and to want to end their suffering. I think we can all agree that it's horrific and awful to witness such carnage. Here's where our paths diverge, though: I think the way to end these hostilities is for Hamas to submit to the demands of the Israelis. This includes releasing all of the hostage as well as turning over the leaders and perpetrators of the Oct 7 attacks. It's similar to the ethnic cleansing in former Yugoslavia: war makes monsters of us all, both sides have committed atrocities, both sides have committed crimes against humanity, and both sides should be held accountable. The student protests are more focused on the destruction of Israel than in the cessation of hostilities, or even of justice.
That's certainly how the internet framed it. What was said [by the White house press secretary] was:
"The President supports demonstrations that are peaceful and lawful." and "Forcibly taking over buildings is not peaceful, it is wrong" and "A small percentage of students shouldn’t be able to disrupt the academic experience, the legitimate study, for the rest of the student body"
For me, I don't really see what is wrong with that statement.
I would say college protests are at the very basis of a healthy democracy. By framing these as unlawful and not peaceful, the white house is sending the message to the decision makers that they can go ahead and stop it and the white house will be on their side.
You can google the white house supporting college protests in all countries around the globe and saying that's part of democracy, it happened recently in iran.
In this case, because he - biden - is clearly in the wrong and democrats are not used to deal with this level of criticism, they're resorting to tactics normally used by those they criticize. I'm sure you can see the hypocrisy here and why lots of young democrats are fed up with this two faced bullshit.
The White House literally released a statement saying they support peaceful and lawful protests. I feel like I'm in Wonderland here. Protestors cannot just unilaterally take over property, bar others from access. They should not unilaterally be able to have graduations cancelled, educations stalled and disrupt thousands of potentially sympathetic fellow students.
Columbia students should be encouraged to protest all they want. But when they take over a building, are told to leave by the University, and don't - what is supposed to happen next? As it happens, I believe there are plenty more steps that should have been taken - involving faculty as a mediator being a crucial one - and that the President and board will lose their jobs over this. I don't like that the NYPD were called in, because US universities should have extremely sharp memories of what can happen when you involve armed law enforcement with students on campuses.
BUT. None of that is a matter for the President of the United States. Or any country leader.
What is actually happening here is that a protest got out of hand, the protestors crossed a line, the University over-reacted. But because this is a Gaza thing, it's ole Genocide Joe and his Genocidal supporters being facist.
Rosa Parks should not have refused to get up. What if there were people on that bus that needed to get to work?
MLK should not have been on that bridge in Selma. That bridge is meant for cars.
They had no right to inconvenience others because they wanted to feel morally superior.
MLK should not have been on that bridge in Selma. That bridge is meant for cars.
They had no right to inconvenience others because they wanted to feel morally superior.
All these words to type utter trite. It’s a who’s who (or what’s what) from the Israeli playbook of deflection and idiocy.
Correct. The only acceptable way to protest is to do it quietly in a place where it can easily be ignored.
I bet all the money in my pocket that if this was a students' protest during a trump presidency and they were demanding the right of people having bodily autonomy, your reaction would be very very different.
Or if iran was committing genocide and iranian students were protesting blocking a couple of building, the white house would saying those protesters are heroes and protesting against government sanctioned genocide is a noble cause.
I think you need the face reality here, from the white house supporting the violent removal of protests, pelosi calling protesters chinese agents and many democratic mayors and state legislators dealing with these protests as if these people were an anti-semitic mob, I conclude the democrats don't deal very well with dissent. The tragedy here is that the protesters are 100% right and the white house is 100% wrong on the matter at hand: genocide in gaza.
So many historical figures changed the US for the better by peacefully not following some laws and now, with an ongoing genocide supported by the current administration, we have to resort to "oh but it's illegal blocking buildings". I'm sorry, but the focus is really on the wrong thing here.
Or, they could be two separate issues, one absolutely warranting condemnation, the other not, each considered on the facts of the actual matters at hand.
Does it not matter if protests are not peaceful and unlawful? If (you believe) the cause to be just, is that okay? To what point? Who decides? Whose rights take precedence?
I think it's an interesting argument, and one worth making. Why do these protestors have more rights than someone un-interested and just wanting to graduate school? It's not different from climate-change activists who, say, barracade access to roads, preventing 'normal' people from dropping their kids at school and getting to work. Of course if you believe so strongly in climate-change, you'll say something like "well those inconvienced people need to wake up". If pro-Abortion activists stop those seeking medical care from accessing a clinic, if you believe they're literally doing God's work, you'll support that.
I think the Biden adminstration is hugely out of step not only with what is actually right but also his own public's opinion on Gaza. But that doesn't mean that I think he's also supposed to sort out things like any of the above protests going too far.
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Not just Israeli. This sort of deflection has been used against all sorts of protestors over the last decades.
This is your opening line? "Think about the graduation ceremonies"? That's the historical context?!?
I have zero condemnation for people who break a few laws (blocking building and events, obviously not beating people up) in the name of a noble cause. Who decides what that is? feck knows, but stopping a genocide is definitely one.
If a group of people are trying to stop the government from committing genocide and they block buildings to do it, I am on their side. We can enter an argument of moral relativism here, but we all know a good cause when we see one, and this is definitely a good cause. The institutional power has reacted with violence, which shows us were they stand when it comes to protests. "Voting is not enough, get involved. Oh but by the way, we'll kick the shit out of you if we disagree with your cause".
We can expect this from republicans, but democrats have been telling us for decades they are different. It's not what I see.
And since you suggested I was being obtuse before, how do you classify comparing blocking building or roads with stopping people from accessing healthcare. Is that a fair comparison?
Oh, I can see this is going to be illuminating discussing things with you.
I guess but he’s regurgitated all the nonsensical points their ilk make in the other thread. What planet do they live on?
On Biden's favorite show.
Do you think people are going to be interested in 'discussing' with someone who heavily insinuated that opposition to the Israel/Gaza war comes from antisemitism? That is not a discussion opener, it is a discussion closer.
But if you want discussion,
I don't know all the details of all these conflicts. But I am Colombian, so I am pretty familiar with that. Enough to know that it is utterly nonsensical to claim that the only difference between that and the current Israel/Gaza war is that it involves Jews. Based on that I can safely say you are just listing countries.
No, only in countries they dont like.
Graduation ceremony
, who gives a feck when thousands are being murdered for no reason?Civil Rights Movement(s). Your comment is devoid of historical context.
For those citing the first amendment, this article explains how it actually applies. Some takeaways:
• private universities set their own standards around speech and protest
• time, place, and manner are standards embedded in free speech case law.
• free speech can be curtailed if it engenders "imminent lawless action"
• occupying a building is not protected free speech, particularly in the case of Columbia, which offered an alternate time and place for student demonstrations.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/us/free-speech-campus-protests.html
• private universities set their own standards around speech and protest
• time, place, and manner are standards embedded in free speech case law.
• free speech can be curtailed if it engenders "imminent lawless action"
• occupying a building is not protected free speech, particularly in the case of Columbia, which offered an alternate time and place for student demonstrations.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/01/us/free-speech-campus-protests.html
Which proves my point that the only reason students care about this conflict is because it involves Jews/Israel. There are dozens of other examples where the broader "civil rights movement" might be a rubric. The civil rights movement was not based on how foreign nations conducted war or pursued their goals through violent means, it was about securing rights of American citizens here at home. Ironically, the student encampments have been violating the civil rights of the students not involved in the protests.
And that is a crime??
For those not voting for Biden because of Israel (which he has been atrocious at dealing with), Trump would take it way further...
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Are Americans being drafted to fight in Gaza? MLK was able to connect the dots because in 1968 Americans were being drafted to fight in Vietnam, while black Americans were still second class citizens in their own country. This is not that.
some people are 1 nudge away to ask to protest into Habbo Hotel so we don't bother anyone
Why this is worse than Biden, regarding Gaza?
I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone out there who will vote for that shite when the message is already as transparent as it is.
What's the limit of the "protests must be uncomfortable" argument? If a university building gets occupied by students, the building must...permanently be occupied?
You protest to enact change. There’s no one size that fits all, so I think the question is a bit silly.
Something similar is happening in my old Uni (occupying the Jeremy Bentham room) and they’ve managed to bring the Uni provost to the table to negotiate: