I think this comparison is fairly pointless, the likes of Southampton and West Ham will start drifting down the table soon enough.
Van Gaal (United) vs Koeman (Southampton)
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It's Van Gaal's CV that's gotten him the job. The scrutiny on him isn't as intense because his teams have a history of starting slowly and then succeeding, so people aren't as quick to judge initial results.
That's totally irrelevant to the point I made in the OP.
Why, with all the disruption Southampton experienced before the start of the season, has Koeman managed to get them playing as a cohesive unit straight away?
He's bought well. The players suit/compliment each other.
Whereas we've spent the last two/three years buying key players who don't really compliment each other at all (van Persie and Kagawa for example) and it's been hard to sort out since.
Sometimes having a clean slate is great for a manager.
van Gaal has benefited from it, and Koeman had an even cleaner canvas to work on.
I have no idea, but sometimes average teams will go on a crazy run at the start of the season.
He's done well though, no doubt about that.
Just one of those things? Big Sam has West Ham in 4th so far. It's only been 8 games so far so the table just doesn't tell the whole story so far. One little run of good form, hell 2 or 3 wins in a row and you'd be up in 3rd or 4th.
They've just clicked? You can't predict when it will happen, sometimes a team with a lot of changes needs time to adapt to each other and to the manager, sometimes it just clicks. It just happens sometimes, other times you have to work towards it. Confidence makes a huge difference and that's what we are lacking right now, but it is a huge help when trying to get a new team to work well.
It's hardly been enough games to make any serious judgement though, one little run of form and a team is up in the top 4, thats how inconsistent everyone has been this season, apart from Chelsea.
Little was expected from Koeman as he entered a club ravaged by transfer dealings.
Lots is expected from Van Gaal who took over at arguably one of the biggest clubs in the world.
At the end of the season we will know the answer. Truth is, Koeman is punching above his weight and I congratulate Soton on such good form and spirit.
Lots is expected from Van Gaal who took over at arguably one of the biggest clubs in the world.
At the end of the season we will know the answer. Truth is, Koeman is punching above his weight and I congratulate Soton on such good form and spirit.
Ouch...
Lack of expectations for one thing. Have Soton played anybody challenging yet either?
The main thing here is that Southampton already had a established philosophy thus making it easier for Koeman, as for LVG he didn't have that and had to start from the very basics, yes we do have the better players but without direction even the best players will fail.
Kind of.
Spurs probably the toughest team they've faced. Basically a lot of the same teams that we played (with better results) plus Spurs and Liverpool
WBA, WHU, SAFC, QPR, LFC, Swansea, NUFC & THFC
Beat Arsenal in the league cup too.
Koeman also started full of steam when he took over Benfica. The worst came in the end. I´m not particulary convinced about his managerial talents but i have to admit he started very well at Southampton.
That's interesting. Maybe some managers are masters of the quick (but temporary) fix?
They played Spurs already and lost. Otherwise, I have no clue about who else they played.
He had arguably the best squad in Portugal. He did well to reach the quarter finals of the Champions League and got good results against Liverpool and Manchester United. But domestically he was terrible and that last 3-1 loss against Paços de Ferreira sealed his faith.
Few points to consider.
1. Southampton didn't have a calamitous season last year, they had a really good season. We had a season that left our entire club completely drained of confidence.
2. Koeman didn't guide Holland to a World Cup semi-final penalty shoot out against Argentina a few weeks before the season began.
3. Koeman hasn't changed the footballing philosophy of the club itself - he's continued it (very well). Van Gaal has come into a huge club who's footballing philosophy needs replacing.
That last one is a BIG point that is being overlooked and under-rated way too much on Redcafe. Moyes' job was to continue winning ways and simply tweak our football. Van Gaal's job is to REINSTATE winning ways while REINVENTING our football - this isn't an excuse, it's a huge, huge difference that really needs to be acknowledged.
Spot on.
The fact you consider him a failure after what, 10 games is indeed laughable.
They're off to a good start but will fade quickly once the season gains momentum.
You've got a manager in Koeman who is coming in and playing in a similar way than the previous manager, perhaps even evolved the style. You've then can find players who can play and fit that style. Maybe even his coaching methods are similar. Although you look at there first XI and a lot of players were there last season.
Where as the LVG style of football is different to the Moyes style. His approach to coaching, going by what the players are saying, is completely different. So he's retraining a whole squad and also fitting in new players to his system, his ideas. Not a few players.
Isn't there always one or two minnowish sides who burst out of the blocks each year then collapse after 10-15 games? The appropriate time to ask you question would be next April.
I might be feeding the troll but I'll give this a go anyway.
Koeman has done a brilliant job with Southampton after losing the core of their team all in one transfer window. Their best 2 young defenders in Shaw and Chambers, their leader at the back in Lovren, their playmaker in Lallana and Lambert who lead the line for them. Fonte and Schneiderlin both wanted to go after that massive demonstration of the clubs lack of ambition. Maybe their best player last season in Rodriguez has missed the whole season so far, then injury hit their good young prospect Ward-Prowse.
I watched them at Liverpool on the opening day and they should have won the game convincingly. Wanyama and Schneiderlin bossed the midfield, Clyne was excellent going forward and Tadic looked to have a great eye for a pass. I was shocked at how he had pulled things together at this crisis club. How he's done it in such a short space of time I'm not sure but he deserves huge credit, as Van Gaal is showing us how difficult it is to adapt to this league even with huge transfer funds and a massively increased wage budget behind him.
I'll give you that Koeman has done well, but he's having a heck of a honeymoon period. Their bubble will burst.
Some honeymoon - it's extended beyond the three month mark!
Fantastic win yesterday for Saints - a 1-0 win away at Hull shouldn't be sniffed at. United have failed on numerous occasions to win easier away fixtures than that.
People can talk about an easy fixture list (United's hasn't exactly been taxing), but Southampton's start has been nothing short of remarkable - 10 games, only 8 points dropped, just 4 points off a Chelsea team people have already crowned champions and second highest scorers in the league. What is absolutely remarkable though is that they've conceded just 5 goals.
A bit of context - three of the back five that played against Hull are new: Forster, Alderweireld and Bertrand. The front three of Long, Pelle and Tadic are also all new, as is Mane, who came on at the hour mark. They've turned over half their team and their results have improved.
For the record, I'm a massive advocate of LvG, I love his approach and I think he's going to form a fantastic United team, but I hate the notion that a transitionary period in terms of rubbish results was to be expected. For me, a lot of under-performing players have been / are being indulged.
It's not even a worthy comparison. Koeman has so far wiped the floor with van Gaal. This is just a fact.
However, both sets of circumstances must be considered. Koeman and his players aren't under the same pressure as van Gaal. Also, Koeman has walked into a nicely oiled club that has improved year on year whilst van Gaal had to go into United and pick up the pieces of what was left.
To suggest van Gaal has failed/is failing is fecking stupid though.
However, both sets of circumstances must be considered. Koeman and his players aren't under the same pressure as van Gaal. Also, Koeman has walked into a nicely oiled club that has improved year on year whilst van Gaal had to go into United and pick up the pieces of what was left.
To suggest van Gaal has failed/is failing is fecking stupid though.
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Spot on. Results wise, there's no comparison right now. I do hope and feel that will change over the next few months.
All I can say is,
Form is temporary. Class is permanent.
Things will average out over the season and we'll see who is really doing well.
Another few points to ponder:-
1) United have been fielding a very young and inexperienced team, especially in defence (where the main problem is right now)
2) Southampton are continuing from last season in terms of system and playing style. United are not.
Form is temporary. Class is permanent.
Things will average out over the season and we'll see who is really doing well.
Another few points to ponder:-
1) United have been fielding a very young and inexperienced team, especially in defence (where the main problem is right now)
2) Southampton are continuing from last season in terms of system and playing style. United are not.
Their squad was fecking gutted and he subsequently had to buy half a starting team!
This idea that everything was hunky-dory at Saints is revisionism at its finest. They started the season as one of the favourites for relegation.
LvG, given the fixtures dealt to him, has failed to come up to the required standard so far - he admitted this himself before the Albion game. In terms of performance, I think the club has started to turn things around.
Again, the level of revisionism surrounding Southampton astounds me.
They have changed over half of their back line and have a completely new attack. Rodriguez is still injured, Lambert, Lallana, Lovren, Shaw and Chambers have all gone, while Schneiderlin spent most of the summer kicking up a fuss. They've had to do more bedding in than we have.
Not players. System. But if you insist, drop it and have a look at the other stuff I've written.
And if we want to even talk about players, we've lost Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra in defence and have all 3 remaining centerbacks injured and was playing with a 19 year old midfielder playing as a centerback even at one point. And that's only the centerback position.
I'm not saying we had an amazing season but it's not a disaster, not yet anyway, and we should not knee jerk at every little twitch in points. Wait till Jan at least before we even assess whether the word disaster is apt here or not.
Like I said, things will average out. Then we'll see where we stand really.
Playing personell are just one component in a club. Granted they lost several players but everything else in the background is like a well oiled machine. It's comparable to when Laudrup walked into Swansea really as he changed about half the team to and they seemed to move up a gear at the time.
Their squad was fecking gutted and he subsequently had to buy half a starting team!
This idea that everything was hunky-dory at Saints is revisionism at its finest. They started the season as one of the favourites for relegation.
LvG, given the fixtures dealt to him, has failed to come up to the required standard so far - he admitted this himself before the Albion game. In terms of performance, I think the club has started to turn things around.
The bit in bold is what I don't get. Irrespective of whether the system has remained the same, the fact they've brought in half a new team means there's a high number of players who need to familiarise themselves with that system.Not players. System. But if you insist, drop it and have a look at the other stuff I've written.
And if we want to even talk about players, we've lost Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra in defence and have all 3 remaining centerbacks injured and was playing with a 19 year old midfielder playing as a centerback even at one point. And that's only the centerback position.
I'm not saying we had an amazing season but it's not a disaster, not yet anyway, and we should not knee jerk at every little twitch in points. Wait till Jan at least before we even assess whether the word disaster is apt here or not.
Like I said, things will average out. Then we'll see where we stand really.
More revisionism, in my opinion.
There were persistent rumours last season that Southampton was going to be sold, something exacerbated by the player sales we saw during the summer. Granted, things have worked out, but it was quite a tumultuous period for the club.
Well, don't get me wrong as I feel Koeman has done a marvelous job with the team. He has exceeded expectations and his team is simply flying right now.
But as I said previously, we have mitigating circumstances and it's still too early in the season to use the word disaster. Just sit back and enjoy the games and then we can come back to discuss after at least half the season has gone by, whether the word disaster is apt. I'm guessing it wont be, but who knows, right? I could be wrong.
Shaw wasn't a big loss for the, Chambers also. They have Clyne as RB, and they have found a reliable LB as it is the only thing you need till you start playing for big trophies. I sad this even before the start of the season. Shaw is young and we can see what mistakes he makes, but he will become great probably, but we do need to wait.
Lambert was quite easy to replace and they have bought to players to cover for Lambert and Lallana, two players from the same system, from the same league....
They had most of their new guy ready from the begging of the season, and their manager was there from the begging, while our was on WC duty, as far as I remember. But yes, they are playing well, no one can argue about that.
Now in our first 3 games we had only Herrera for about 60 minutes and di Maria also for 60min, that's it, plus we had Carrick injured (that's where I blame LVG, as he could have bought Blind earlier), and all of our defenders were injured the whole season, they can't gel as they don't play together. On top of that all of our forwards were out of form, not just missing chances, but playing badly. After that we started to play better. The Leicester game was bad (yes the referee had a huge impact, but still, we should have not lost like that), the WBA game wasn't great, but we were the better side and they have scored because of quite big mistakes from our full backs (that where the Shaw problem occurs, as he is young), not because of our system, while the Chelsea game was actually quite good.
After the 3rd round you could see that we have massively improved going forward, but we hat to many problems at the back, mostly because of injuries (we had 2 CB who made their debuts in the Premierleague).
Koemann started better, but you can't judge LVG and taking into accounts all the players we have bought, none of them played 9 games. Di Maria played 6 (not full), Herrera 5 (one he had to go off in the 60th minute, one he played injured and had to leave the field). Rojo played 6 (in two positions, with different partners), Blind played 6, Falcao played 5 (none of them for 90 minutes), plus other injuries (and there are plenty of them).
Lambert was quite easy to replace and they have bought to players to cover for Lambert and Lallana, two players from the same system, from the same league....
They had most of their new guy ready from the begging of the season, and their manager was there from the begging, while our was on WC duty, as far as I remember. But yes, they are playing well, no one can argue about that.
Now in our first 3 games we had only Herrera for about 60 minutes and di Maria also for 60min, that's it, plus we had Carrick injured (that's where I blame LVG, as he could have bought Blind earlier), and all of our defenders were injured the whole season, they can't gel as they don't play together. On top of that all of our forwards were out of form, not just missing chances, but playing badly. After that we started to play better. The Leicester game was bad (yes the referee had a huge impact, but still, we should have not lost like that), the WBA game wasn't great, but we were the better side and they have scored because of quite big mistakes from our full backs (that where the Shaw problem occurs, as he is young), not because of our system, while the Chelsea game was actually quite good.
After the 3rd round you could see that we have massively improved going forward, but we hat to many problems at the back, mostly because of injuries (we had 2 CB who made their debuts in the Premierleague).
Koemann started better, but you can't judge LVG and taking into accounts all the players we have bought, none of them played 9 games. Di Maria played 6 (not full), Herrera 5 (one he had to go off in the 60th minute, one he played injured and had to leave the field). Rojo played 6 (in two positions, with different partners), Blind played 6, Falcao played 5 (none of them for 90 minutes), plus other injuries (and there are plenty of them).
Southampton had pretty good run so far in terms of fixtures. They lost to Pool and Spurs away and drew with WBA so far. Their most impressive result so far has been beating WHU away, and this is given the WHU position in the table at the moment.
In the next 9 matches in the league they have Arsenal (A), City (H), United (H), Chelsea(H), Everton (H), so I expect them to drop in the table till New Year
In the next 9 matches in the league they have Arsenal (A), City (H), United (H), Chelsea(H), Everton (H), so I expect them to drop in the table till New Year
Mmm...
They did outplayed Liverpool to be fair.
Why has Koeman managed to get Southampton playing so cohesively, yet we're still such a work in progress?