VAR and Refs | General Discussion

[King7Eric]

I don't remember this much furore when the Martinez handball was given. Now you have every pundit frothing at the mouth

Playing Devil's advocate, that was the Europa League which garners less attention than the CL. Also, we qualified comfortably from our group, albeit having to play an additional knockout round. This decision looks like it has knocked Newcastle out of the CL.

 

[saivet]

I didn’t see the outrage when Martinez was given handball.

The narrative wasn't as interesting to be honest.

Underdogs away at PSG with a massive injury crisis. They hung on until the very end before conceding the penalty right at the end.

 

[Cpt Negative]

I don't remember this much furore when the Martinez handball was given. Now you have every pundit frothing at the mouth

To be fair, the commentators that night were very critical of the decision. But it certainly didn’t have the post match furore this has got.

Thought the first handball claim was much clearer handball than the latter

 

[AndySmith1990]

It's a sad state of affairs when most of the headlines I see about football relate to VAR and controversial ref decisions. It's sapping all enjoyment out of the game

 

[Oranges038]

The handball rule is so fecking fecked up now.

Feck all this silhouette and unnatural position nonsense, there is no set natural position when you're running, jumping or diving to block a shot as defender you're hands and arms will naturally go to a position to balance your body.

For me, handball should be only for a deliberate action of hand to ball.

 

[ROFLUTION]

What is ridiculous is that before you had 1 human/ref able to make shit decisions. Now you have 4 humans/ref able to make even shittier decisions.

Every time a player goes into the penalty area they're now looking for the slightest touch knowing that VAR will give it.

VAR has taken the bite/energy out of football. It's been what 3 years now and still no success? Remember when FIFA and the FA's announced VAR had a 99% getting decisions right rate?

I remember when VAR came out, there were a clear number of posters on here who were in favor for it. Genuinely curious whether they still think it's great. I mean, it's been some years now, it's probably not gonna be perfected that much more.

 

[Pexbo]

The handball rule is so fecking fecked up now.

Feck all this silhouette and unnatural position nonsense, there is no set natural position when you're running, jumping or diving to block a shot as defender you're hands and arms will naturally go to a position to balance your body.

For me, handball should be only for a deliberate action of hand to ball.

Which would mean that defenders can make themselves big in the star position and as long as they manage to do that before the shot is fired then they didn’t move hand to ball and it’s a legit block.

 

[Oranges038]

Which would mean that defenders can make themselves big in the star position and as long as they manage to do that before the shot is fired then they didn’t move hand to ball and it’s a legit block.

Better than the shit rule we have at the minute, where every glance off a hand is subjected to a 5 minute VAR review.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Which would mean that defenders can make themselves big in the star position and as long as they manage to do that before the shot is fired then they didn’t move hand to ball and it’s a legit block.

If you do that then you definitely intend to handle the ball.

All this micro analysis VAR fuelled bollox gives me such a pain in the hole. A good, experienced referee can tell when a handball is deliberate often enough for incorrect calls to not be a big problem. It’s only in the very recent past that it’s become such a fecking headache.

 

[Offside]

Anybody who's actually played football knows there's no such thing as an unnatural position. It's been ages since I've seen a genuinely deliberate handball.

 

[Offside]

The handball rule is so fecking fecked up now.

Feck all this silhouette and unnatural position nonsense, there is no set natural position when you're running, jumping or diving to block a shot as defender you're hands and arms will naturally go to a position to balance your body.

For me, handball should be only for a deliberate action of hand to ball.

Which is was for many years! Why change it? Do they want more goals? We know that's not true as VAR keeps ruling out brilliant goals for someone's hair being offside.

 

[SilentWitness]

That's a ridiculous decision and makes it feel like they had to give PSG something.

 

[Oranges038]

Which is was for many years! Why change it? Do they want more goals? We know that's not true as VAR keeps ruling out brilliant goals for someone's hair being offside.

I don't know. Probably because they wanted to remove some of the subjectivity from the decision making process. Same reason why intent was removed for red card offences for tackles.

It seems as a defender if the ball hits your hand in the penalty area it's a penalty regardless of the situation. There was always some bad handball calls in the past, but now it seems like there's more and even with VAR more bad calls being made.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/11/21/harry-maguire-premier-league-change-soft-penalty-decisions/#:~:text=Last season there was a,end of the group stage

In the 2001-02 Premier League season there were just five penalties awarded for handball in the entire campaign. Last season, the tally was 24. The three seasons to produce the most handball penalties are the most recent three, which speaks to Var’s influence.

The same is true in the Champions League, in which three of the top four seasons for penalties awarded have come since 2019-20 when Var was fully operational. In last season’s Champions League 49 penalties were given, compared to the historic low of 17 in 2006-07.

Last season there was a 50 per cent increase in handball penalties awarded in the Champions League, the most of any campaign at 18. There have already been nine handball penalties in this season’s competition, and we are two games away from the end of the group stage

 

[JuriM]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So Uefa admitting it was an error

 

[ti vu]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So Uefa admitting it was an error

Will need to wait for a reliable source, but if this is true, the whole VAR thing is an farce including previous similar handball penalty calls. It takes until a state owned club to be on the receiving end for UEFA to take notice?!

 

[Offside]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So Uefa admitting it was an error

How did the referee miss that? It was obvious.

 

[Oranges038]

Will need to wait for a reliable source, but if this is true, the whole VAR thing is an farce including previous similar handball penalty calls. It takes until a state owned club to be on the receiving end for UEFA to take notice?!

One state owned club benefits the other is punished. The reaction probably all depends on which one had the UEFA guys over for a nice holiday a while back.

 

[Yorkeontop]

I remember when VAR came out, there were a clear number of posters on here who were in favor for it. Genuinely curious whether they still think it's great. I mean, it's been some years now, it's probably not gonna be perfected that much more.

VAR at the 2018 WC was frankly exhilarating at times. It leads me to believe that it's only meant for those 6 weeks type of tournaments, although I'm not sure this current version of it would do.

 

[hodgey123]

Can we actually get rid of it now or are we stuck with it forever? What will it take for UEFA/FIFA to scrap it? Genuinely don't know but I am sick of it and wish it could be binned.

 

[ROFLUTION]

VAR at the 2018 WC was frankly exhilarating at times. It leads me to believe that it's only meant for those 6 weeks type of tournaments, although I'm not sure this current version of it would do.

I remember paying close notice to VAR at 2018 and I don't remember it exhilarating, but I guess you're right when you say "at times". Denmark got a wrong handball against them, France got an offside decision wrong where FIFA denied showing it in replay - that's not good transparency. And it was an overall theme of not showing replays of offsides, so one could notice or not whether VAR was right.

But at times VAR got something more right than without VAR for some national teams, which probably made VAR look good for some that mostly watched their own national team and not every game. I vaguely remember a dubious call about Neymar that wasn't given by VAR too, just because it was Neymar and he had his antics. Also I remember something in an important Belgium game (I think?) where a penalty was given where the ball was already on the way out for a goalkick - that one was a bit controversial. I think they allowed for more physical play at that WC too, which at least were better than VAR in it's current form.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How did the referee miss that? It was obvious.

Not just any referee too. Arguably the best in the game right now.

That UEFA clarification is stupid anyway. The the laws of the game would allow for a handball after the ball deflects off someone’s body. If a defender does a “starfish” block, spreading their arms to block a shot, then it should obviously still be a penalty if the ball deflects off their body before hitting their arm. Ditto if the ball hits a defender on his chest and he then uses his arm to swipe the ball away before an attacker can head it.

This is all just ridiculous over complication of a very simple rule that has been referee’d just fine for decades, right up until VAR made shite of it.

 

[Yorkeontop]

I remember paying close notice to VAR at 2018 and I don't remember it exhilarating, but I guess you're right when you say "at times". Denmark got a wrong handball against them, France got an offside decision wrong where FIFA denied showing it in replay - that's not good transparency. And it was an overall theme of not showing replays of offsides, so one could notice or not whether VAR was right.

But at times VAR got something more right than without VAR for some national teams, which probably made VAR look good for some that mostly watched their own national team and not every game. I vaguely remember a dubious call about Neymar that wasn't given by VAR too, just because it was Neymar and he had his antics. Also I remember something in an important Belgium game (I think?) where a penalty was given where the ball was already on the way out for a goalkick - that one was a bit controversial. I think they allowed for more physical play at that WC too, which at least were better than VAR in it's current form.

I think the more apt word is intriguing, but like an exhilarating intrigue. And reading your post gave me a glimpse of the feeling I had back then. I'm pretty sure the newness of the system played a factor.

 

[Remember the geese]

How did the referee miss that? It was obvious.

Wouldn't be surprised if the referee didn't know the rules. That's how incompetent it is.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

How did the referee miss that? It was obvious.

Because that's not the reason why they think it was wrong

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

They say it's because the arm was in a natural/normal position - nothing to do with the deflection.

Not just any referee too. Arguably the best in the game right now.

That UEFA clarification is stupid anyway. The the laws of the game would allow for a handball after the ball deflects off someone’s body. If a defender does a “starfish” block, spreading their arms to block a shot, then it should obviously still be a penalty if the ball deflects off their body before hitting their arm. Ditto if the ball hits a defender on his chest and he then uses his arm to swipe the ball away before an attacker can head it.

This is all just ridiculous over complication of a very simple rule that has been referee’d just fine for decades, right up until VAR made shite of it.

As far as I'm aware the "deflection off the body" ruling was a suggestion at the beginning of the season but was rejected by UEFA and so isn't actually in the laws of the game.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Because that's not the reason why they think it was wrong

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

They say it's because the arm was in a natural/normal position - nothing to do with the deflection.



As far as I'm aware the "deflection off the body" ruling was a suggestion at the beginning of the season but was rejected by UEFA and so isn't actually in the laws of the game.

Yeah they clarify that in the article linked by that tweet.

 

[antonyrightfoot]

I don't remember this much furore when the Martinez handball was given. Now you have every pundit frothing at the mouth

The penalty on martinez was harsh but you can understand why they gave it, the hand blocked the ball on its way to the goal. Yesterday call was a disgrace. I feel the one stonewall penalty we should got this season was against tottenham (romero)

 

[Offside]

It was also totally obvious last night that the referees were influenced by the incessant calls from PSG players for a penalty. They are so incompetent.

 

[RedRocket9908]

Should this goal have been ruled out, it looks like a possible foul on the goalkeeper to me?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[RedUnited86]

Should this goal have been ruled out, it looks like a possible foul on the goalkeeper to me?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Who the feck knows anymore.

 

[NotChatGPT]

I watched the penalty situation, PSG - Newcastle, not sure i understand the public outcry, especially not the moaning from various pundits.

It’s a bog standard CL penalty that we’ve seen countless times over the years. Nothing new really.

 

[Ayoba]

I watched the penalty situation, PSG - Newcastle, not sure i understand the public outcry, especially not the moaning from various pundits.

It’s a bog standard CL penalty that we’ve seen countless times over the years. Nothing new really.

Because it was against the plucky underdog newcastle, a great great team, with a great stadium and great fans who deserve so much, led by a man of dignity, Edward Howe, whose team battled hard against the big bad ugly PSG that embody everything that is wrong with the modern game.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I watched the penalty situation, PSG - Newcastle, not sure i understand the public outcry, especially not the moaning from various pundits.

It’s a bog standard CL penalty that we’ve seen countless times over the years. Nothing new really.

It's a ridiculous decision, based on a ridiculous rule, in the last minute of a crucial Champions League game - of course it's going to be a huge talking point.

 

[Oranges038]

Should this goal have been ruled out, it looks like a possible foul on the goalkeeper to me?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Not a hope.

Keeper throws himself to the ground after a little nudge looking for a foul and drops the ball because of it. Never a foul and he was rightly punished, he should also have been booked for diving.

 

[Josep Dowling]

People keep blaming the referees for these handballs but it's clearly the handball rule that is causing confusion to everyone. It's been changed so many times in recent years that no one knows the rules. They need to go back to intent of handballing. Accidental handball or deflected handball should not be penalties. Handballs will always be a subjective view point and probably a decision VAR should not get involved with. The only scenario VAR should is when the referee gives a handball but it doesn't touch a player's hand/arm.

I would have thought the decision last night was obviously not a penalty but there were a couple of handballs in the second half which I was surprised weren't given. There was one very similar to the Eriksen situation against Bayern.

I'm finding so much media hype around Newcastle and ALOT of pundits on their side like they're some underdog. The pattern is following exactly the same as City and has to be driven by the Saudis to gain support. Jenas is insufferable and the biggest hypocrite. He was told not to criticise referees and had to apologise about 2 months ago, and then he was at it again last night. I don't know anyone that likes his as a pundit. Best thing they can do is get rid of him.

 

[NotChatGPT]

It's a ridiculous decision, based on a ridiculous rule, in the last minute of a crucial Champions League game - of course it's going to be a huge talking point.

It's not that i don't think it's a ridiculous decision, but there's been countless decisions like this in the past. In the Champions League, and Europa League, if the ball ends up hitting the arm inside the box then it's going to be a penalty.

I read all the complaints and thought it was going to be a bonkers decision, but it's just in line in what they've always done.

 

[Mb194dc]

"deliberate" doesn't matter. For many years now. The rules have changed long time ago.

Of course it matters. All the guidance is just about what is deliberate. Handball has to be deliberate to be given.

This VAR has been stood down now.

The question is why the ref gave it after looking at the screen. It's obviously not a pen so he should just tell var that.

Refs should always be sceptical of what they're told by VAR. Frankly better if they aren't told anything and just watch the footage.

Frankly I do wonder about the integrity of the CL. I remember that really weird penalty retake we got for double encroachment. That's never happened again.

Lots of weird calls, going all the way back that van persie second yellow and probably before.

 

[NotChatGPT]

Of course it matters. All the guidance is just about what is deliberate. Handball has to be deliberate to be given.

This VAR has been stood down now.

The question is why the ref gave it after looking at the screen. It's obviously not a pen so he should just tell var that.

Refs should always be sceptical of what they're told by VAR. Frankly better if they aren't told anything and just watch the footage.

Frankly I do wonder about the integrity of the CL. I remember that really weird penalty retake we got for double encroachment. That's never happened again.

Lots of weird calls, going all the way back that van persie second yellow and probably before.

It has very little to do with deliberate.

 

[Bobski]

Anybody who's actually played football knows there's no such thing as an unnatural position. It's been ages since I've seen a genuinely deliberate handball.

Getting to the point were a penalty is far too harsh a decision for this. No one wants a return of the days when John Terry was running out with arms wide like a keeper, daring the ref to give a pen but it is utterly ridiculous how defenders are being treated by handball, basically asking them not to have arms.

VAR is shite, doesn't matter if they get the decision right or not, it is still shite, and half the irritation with it is the constant whining by every set of fans about it. "They got a penalty for that in the last game, this is quite similar, it should be a pen to" "They made a feck up last week, they should make the same feck up this week or else it is a conspiracy"

Tedious beyond belief. If the whining and conspiracy theories are worse post Var than before, if the football experience is worse, what is the point.

 

[caid]

I was in favour of bringing in VAR. I thought the refereeing level was complete shit and anything that helped them make better decisions would be a benefit. I'd rather they just got better referee's really but i was in favour of VAR too. Being able to see multiple slow motion replays within seconds of every incident just seemed like a useful tool to making good decisions or at least changing bad ones.
Its the same referee's in charge today and they're still hopeless so to be honest i'd like to see them changed before i throw out var. The implementation is pretty stupid in a thousand ways though. European ref's are pretty hit and miss but I think the better ones make good use of it. Rules are a bit shit in some cases in europe but hard to blame the referee's for that.

 

[Gio]

Anybody who's actually played football knows there's no such thing as an unnatural position. It's been ages since I've seen a genuinely deliberate handball.

Yes. Problem is they decided to take out intent from the assessment as it was hard to measure. This was a specific change to accommodate VAR as opposed to improving the rule - because VAR could show where contact was made, but didn't help in judging intent. In fact it skewed intent because it slow-motioned and froze frames.

They've made a total shambles of the handball rule. Needs a hard reset.