Have the inevitable PMGOL apologies emerged yet or is it just when clubs don't get penalties against United?
VAR and Refs | General Discussion | Forest go into meltdown
- Thread starter Samid
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Hard to tell really whether the contact really caused the fall, but it was so minimal that it's so frustrating. I am more pissed at Dalot for it to be honest, either bring him down outside the box or put pressure from the inside, don't just run behind him into the box and give the player and ref the chance.
He's definitely improved his all round game of late, but he's still brainless.
He's definitely improved his all round game of late, but he's still brainless.
If the contact caused the fall then he'd either be knocked off balance and fall after trying to stay up, or he'd go down instantly. He takes a few more strides and just collapses. Yes, Dalot does touch him underneath his boot, which is what they consistently zoomed in on.
For the first penalty, there's the slightest contact between Antonys knee and Cucurellas thigh, if there was anything in it Cucurella wouldn't collapse straight forward.
There's contact in both situations, but it's a contact sport and how many penalties haven't been waved away with the excuse that it's "not enough in it".
I thought both looked like nailed on penalties when they were given, and i can understand that Gillett think there's more in it, but i can't understand why he's not send to the screen for a verification when the VAR, even though it's the ever so fecking useless clown Coote, should clearly be able to see that there's minimal contact.
It's also quite funny in terms of Howard Webb punishing Taylor for awarding Newcastle a penalty against Wolves..Contact but not enough and VAR should have intervened.
Do the VAR guys watch the live broadcast? I can’t help but think that if they do they could easily be influenced by the level of outrage or opinion from the commentary team. Sometimes the commentators just pick a side and stick with it even if replays show differently to what they think they saw in real time. Last night was a good example, they had zero interest in changing their opinion and even moaned how long VAR was taking to check or if they needed to check at all.
With that in mind, it gets clearer each week that the match director for the broadcasters play a huge part in the narrative of a game. Mainoo gets an elbow to the face, Casemiro goes after Fernandez afterwards and the commentators can’t even put 2 and 2 together and there’s zero replays from the director. There were other instances too, it’s like the whole team have decided before the game that the big drama story would be another loss for United so they tailor their broadcast towards that. If United upset their narrative so be it, but they were delighted when it ended as they had hoped.
Sounds all conspiracy theorist I know, but I have seen it as a neutral too not just when it’s going against my own team.
With that in mind, it gets clearer each week that the match director for the broadcasters play a huge part in the narrative of a game. Mainoo gets an elbow to the face, Casemiro goes after Fernandez afterwards and the commentators can’t even put 2 and 2 together and there’s zero replays from the director. There were other instances too, it’s like the whole team have decided before the game that the big drama story would be another loss for United so they tailor their broadcast towards that. If United upset their narrative so be it, but they were delighted when it ended as they had hoped.
Sounds all conspiracy theorist I know, but I have seen it as a neutral too not just when it’s going against my own team.
Here’s an experiment: try to do a knockout competition of importance without VAR and see how it feels. Euros, World Cup.
it’s the lack of emotions when celebrating that really kills it for me. And of course the constant waiting for VAR to get it right 50% of the time.
it’s the lack of emotions when celebrating that really kills it for me. And of course the constant waiting for VAR to get it right 50% of the time.
It’s beyond ridiculous that the VAR room shouldn’t explain themselves during the game with their shit decisions. It’s not that hard: have the refs say the decisions and a monkey to type it in fast on the screen.
VAR was being touted to fight bribery, but with no transparency and explanations it might be just as corrupt and biased really.
VAR was being touted to fight bribery, but with no transparency and explanations it might be just as corrupt and biased really.
I love reading the myopic and red tinted vitriol on these pages. VAR makes errors every single week:
- Curtis Jones sent off against Spurs - Given onfield, upheld by VAR and overturned post match.
- Odegaard handball against Liverpool. Not given onfield and upheld by VAR. PGMOL apologise post match.
But has got some right:
- Penalty against Wan-Bissaka for a non trip on Kai Havertz - Given on field, overturned by VAR.
- Penalty for Utd against Chelsea when Enzo fouled Antony - Given by VAR.
The issue is that, many of the decisions are not as binary as were football fans seem to think as evidenced by the number of contradictory views on last nights penalties (both of which I consider to be soft).
This is why I am thankful that we do not have to endure VAR in the Championship. At Home Park, when you score, you glance at the Asst Ref / Ref and then celebrate - don’t have to sit and wait whilst the result is manipulated from Stockley Park.
On the subject of EtH, I genuinely feel that he has run his race and Utd should be going all out to attract either Amorim from Sporting or Naggelsman. I know that Liverpool are interested in Amorim, but surely being the Manager who resurrects the sleeping giant at Old Trafford must be more appealing, especially working alongside INEOS.
- Curtis Jones sent off against Spurs - Given onfield, upheld by VAR and overturned post match.
- Odegaard handball against Liverpool. Not given onfield and upheld by VAR. PGMOL apologise post match.
But has got some right:
- Penalty against Wan-Bissaka for a non trip on Kai Havertz - Given on field, overturned by VAR.
- Penalty for Utd against Chelsea when Enzo fouled Antony - Given by VAR.
The issue is that, many of the decisions are not as binary as were football fans seem to think as evidenced by the number of contradictory views on last nights penalties (both of which I consider to be soft).
This is why I am thankful that we do not have to endure VAR in the Championship. At Home Park, when you score, you glance at the Asst Ref / Ref and then celebrate - don’t have to sit and wait whilst the result is manipulated from Stockley Park.
On the subject of EtH, I genuinely feel that he has run his race and Utd should be going all out to attract either Amorim from Sporting or Naggelsman. I know that Liverpool are interested in Amorim, but surely being the Manager who resurrects the sleeping giant at Old Trafford must be more appealing, especially working alongside INEOS.
If this is the way it is going to be implemented in the game, then the game is probably better off without VAR. It isn't there to get the right decision, it is just there to sign off the on-field decision unless something totally baffling has happened.
Overall, the officials yesterday were incredibly bad. From the linesmen missing a few corner calls that were right in front of them, to the ref letting any contact go outside of the box but then dropping that tolerance immediately once a Chelsea player flopped to the floor in the box. Maddening all around.
Overall, the officials yesterday were incredibly bad. From the linesmen missing a few corner calls that were right in front of them, to the ref letting any contact go outside of the box but then dropping that tolerance immediately once a Chelsea player flopped to the floor in the box. Maddening all around.
Just saw the Dalot one again on Twitter zoomed in. There’s genuinely no contact with the player 
if I knew how I’d post it I would.
if I knew how I’d post it I would.Yet VAR zoomed in and decided it was a penalty. It’s fecking corrupt.Just saw the Dalot one again on Twitter zoomed in. There’s genuinely no contact with the player
The penalty decisions were an absolute joke! If those were given in our favour the media would be in an uproar, Talksport would have their material sorted for the next month but as it’s against Utd you won’t hear a peep out of anyone.
No it wasn't.
Better view of the second penalty.
No wonder VAR spent three minutes looking at it. Have to send ref to screens and recommend he consider all angles?
No wonder VAR spent three minutes looking at it. Have to send ref to screens and recommend he consider all angles?
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This either won’t be covered on Ref Watch or Gallagher will defend it and the panel will agree it was a clear penalty.
Don't think you can blame VAR for the penalty call yesterday. It was a typical 50-50 challenge that if the referee had not given it I suppose VAR wouldn't have intervened and given a penalty.
The 8 mins of stoppage time was strange though.
The 8 mins of stoppage time was strange though.
While i agree, the video of the Dalot penalty situation doesn't show the start of the situation where he does touch the Chelsea player on the underside of his boot prior to Dalot falling
Ofcourse Gallagher is going to defend it. There's contact, VAR does it's job and shouldn't get involved, we dont want to re-referee matches yada yada. Stupid of Antony and Dalot to take such risks where it can easily result in penalties.
100%
People can say it's Rawkish but this all goes back to the media meltdown after the opening game against Wolves. There's been countless questionable VAR decisions against us in particular that didn' get as much as a whimper from the media.
The hilarious thing about the Dalot foul is that when Walker fouled Rashford, we were told Rashford was too light weight and shouldn't have fallen over. You can't make it up.
Exactly! That kind of contact happens so many times.
Since SAF it's always been like.
Refs and VAR are on a crusade against United.
Yesterday there was also Gallagher running after Mainoo and pushing him to the floor in front of the referee - no yellow for that but if it was Casemiro !!!!!!!!!!!
Refs and VAR are on a crusade against United.
Yesterday there was also Gallagher running after Mainoo and pushing him to the floor in front of the referee - no yellow for that but if it was Casemiro !!!!!!!!!!!
Agreed. I don't think the Dalot one is contentious. Once he's the wrong side of the attacker, then he cannot make any contact with the legs whatsoever. The only exception is if the attacker slows down or cuts across his path purely to engineer the contact, neither of which were the case. When the attacker is clipped like that it takes another step or so before his legs go. Anyone who has been in that situation will know the feeling.
Antony's is softer. I reckon the ref is justified in giving it, but it's not that many years ago it would probably have played on.
I dont think var saw contact either. They were just unsure it was dive or not and decided to not overturn it.
We would never get two soft pens in a single game like these because the uproar would be too much for ref to handle.
Absolutely useless technology. It's only there to stirr up drama
One thing I can say without a shadow of a doubt is VAR does not give those if the ref doesn't.
Of course Cucerella was waiting for contact which there was and once he went down it was always going to be a penalty
For the people who think the refs have a bias against Man United, can I asked what you think their reasons are:
A) They just don't like Man United (be it because they support a rival or have a historic grudge)
B) They've been bribed
C) There isn't a bias, they're just crap at their job
If there are any other options, please, I am genuinely curious to know your thoughts.
I get that it's super frustrating to be on the end of bad calls but I an curious to see if people are just venting or if they actually think there is a conspiracy.
A) They just don't like Man United (be it because they support a rival or have a historic grudge)
B) They've been bribed
C) There isn't a bias, they're just crap at their job
If there are any other options, please, I am genuinely curious to know your thoughts.
I get that it's super frustrating to be on the end of bad calls but I an curious to see if people are just venting or if they actually think there is a conspiracy.
I think they're crap at their job, and it's also in the back of the mind of several of them that there will be an insane focus on it if they make a borderline decision that United benefits from. A bit like Mudryks penalty against Burnley vs the focus and consequences of Wolves not being awarded a penalty against United at the start of the season. There's a vast difference in scrutiny and media shitstorm
The only ref I think has an obvious bias is Michael Oliver.
The rest are somewhere on a sliding scale of unconscious bias and incompetence.
You're never going to eliminate that, so the bigger issue for me is VAR and it basically being a tool to justify shit refereeing. The "clear and obvious" line is literally only there so they can call a decision "correct" whichever way it's been given.
It feels like when decisions go in United's favour then there is furore in the media for the following days/weeks, but when calls go against United there is no such uproar. I don't think there is a conspiracy with the refs, and do think most of them are terrible at their jobs. But they tend to face much less scrutiny and backlash in the media if they do what happened last night against United rather than what happened on the first day of the season against Wolves, or even give Bruno that penalty against Wigan which was scrutinised in the days after.
No way either are not given at OT if for Utd.
I've been against VAR for a while now and think it just wastes time and it definitely takes the joy out of goal celebrations.
1. Most referees are around 30-45. We aren’t reffed by United fans so therefore we are reffed by neutrals and most neutrals that age have a deep set hatred for United because we dominated for most of their lives.
2. They want an easy life. A decision in United’s favour is a week or more of media scrutiny and often PGMOL statements or action against them. If you give a decision against United, even if it’s wrong you are sheltered from all of that. It’s a really easy choice for them.
The amount of extra time being added to game is purely done for drama. After all the Premier League has become an entertainment league rather than anything of sporting merit. Otherwise City and Chelsea would be punished for breaching spending rules.
Even the commentators yesterday both said the amount of extra time was strange but said they 'did not care because it's been such an entertaining game'. At which point we get two goals at the end. One a very soft penalty after numerous replays show little contact. The second was down to our own stupid decision making to attempt to get a winner and leave us open at the back.
8 minutes stoppage time for a second half with one goal and a few subs. We ended up playing 12 minutes. I haven't even discussed the first penalty which again shows no contact on the replay.
There is no point having VAR is it won't overturn anything. About time Ten Hag started questioning these decisions after the game. You know Arteta, Klopp and Pep would moan for weeks about these decision which is precisely why they get favourable decision by referees.
Even the commentators yesterday both said the amount of extra time was strange but said they 'did not care because it's been such an entertaining game'. At which point we get two goals at the end. One a very soft penalty after numerous replays show little contact. The second was down to our own stupid decision making to attempt to get a winner and leave us open at the back.
8 minutes stoppage time for a second half with one goal and a few subs. We ended up playing 12 minutes. I haven't even discussed the first penalty which again shows no contact on the replay.
There is no point having VAR is it won't overturn anything. About time Ten Hag started questioning these decisions after the game. You know Arteta, Klopp and Pep would moan for weeks about these decision which is precisely why they get favourable decision by referees.
I can and I will blame VAR. In the speed of things during the game, you can actually excuse the ref for getting it wrong. But if you need 5 mins to analyze whether it's a penalty or not, then it's not a penalty. What needs to be clear and obvious is the penalty (or the red card in such cases), not the error within the referee's decision. They saw it and figured it's not a penalty. Then they spent 5 mins in trying to find a reason why they can maintain the same decision and found some slow motion zoomed in contact. And they did it twice.
This is precisely the problem. I know fans always feel hard done by but so many times this season I can't believe some of the decisions that have gone against United. These are then never ever discussed by media channels. They're still too busy talking about Onana challenge from the first game of the season against Wolves. If that's not media bias I don't know what is.
That first clip cuts off the contact, Dalot kicks the underside of his right foot which causes Dalot to tumble and lightly touch him with his arm at the hip, Madueke still 100% dives because the contact does nothing to impede him as you see him clearly plant his standing foot and then decide to drag his other foot and fall over but it was clumsy from Dalot and he gave Madueke the chance to fool the refs. Antony definitely makes contact with Cucurella, right thigh to left knee and then his left leg coming across also makes slight contact knee to knee, another clumsy challenge. Personally I've no issue with the Antony one, it seems pretty consistent with what we always see, the Dalot one is egregious because even though there was contact I don't see how the attacker is fouled in any way, the visual is bad which is why I can see it being given initially but once VAR got a look they should be able to see the nuance and overturn it.
Which is how it should be. Not all contact should be a foul. I was one of few saying that should not have been a foul on rashford and it should not have been 2 pens last night
C and also a touch of unconscious bias because of the media backlash if they give something uniteds way - feck I have to be 100 percent sure here or I'll get slaughtered.
I preferred football without VAR.
I think both pens were very soft, but neither Antony or Dalot complained which says a lot.
I would like to think that had they not been given VAR wouldn't have overturned the decision, but who knows.
I would like to think that had they not been given VAR wouldn't have overturned the decision, but who knows.