Its not really a grey area, its quite obvious when it happens.
Similarly contact does not always equal a foul. The contact has to be significant enough to impede the player. Do you think thats also a grey area then?
VAR and Refs | General Discussion
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Similarly contact does not always equal a foul. The contact has to be significant enough to impede the player. Do you think thats also a grey area then?
Yeah, and it’s the source of thousands of controversial decisions every week! But you can’t outlaw contact, it’s part of the game. You can however, very easily not award penalties to players who go over after minimal to no contact.
The poster just argue around chasing a tail.
It's clear there is grey area that is left to interpretation. There is no way to accurately define recklessness level, maliciousness.
Incompetent, bookworm referees are afraid of taking responsibility to make a tough call, so they strictly apply (wrongly) the rule by the letter without consideration of possibility of unwritten situation.
You say that but you see penalties given quite often when there is minimal to no contact due to poor referring. Similarly you see large contact and clear impeding and a player stays on their feet, opportunity is lost, and ref don’t give the pen
(this is said in jest by the way)The standard of referring doesn’t change what is a foul.
In any case though impeding the progress of a player without making contact is deemed a foul in the laws of the game. Feel free to read it up. And its also quite logical too.
My last response on that one.
That’s never a penalty. Ridiculous decision.
I don’t think that’s true at all. I think they’re doing their best to balance a deeply flawed system with the importance of keeping football a fast paced, relentless spectacle. However the fact you’re trying to explain what’s happening by making accusations of sabotage and corruption is exactly why VAR is such a disaster. And a predictable disaster too.
This specific penalty is the perfect example of why VAR was doomed to fail. In this thread you’ve got a clear split between those who agree and disagree with the call. There probably wasn’t contact but was the defender’s lunge enough to significantly impede the attacker? I dunno. Maybe? There’s been decisions like this every weekend since forever. With divided opinions amongst journalists, ex-players and the great and good of redcafe. And these split opinions aren’t because they lack training or don’t understand the rules. They’re the nature of the grey areas that will always exist in interpreting an incident like Liverpool’s penalty.
Before VAR the controversy around these was far less intense because anyone who was in any way sensible accepted that these were tough calls, made in the blink of an eye. And some of these calls would be incorrect. We could live with that. Now we have a system foisted on us which was sold to us as a way to remove human error. So any call that divides opinion gets attributed to VAR being not fit for purpose or, frequently, corruption.
If you were to do some sort of word cloud on football online chat pre and post VAR I guarantee you that use of the word “corruption” has exploded. The combination of all the additional stoppages in the game with that pervasive sense of injustice and unfairness is ruining football as a spectacle for many fans and is the exact opposite of what VAR was supposed to achieve.
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Could they implement a middle ground for the ref when they don't clearly see a position? Ref whistles and signals VAR and asks for their advice (as the ref didn't see the incident clearly). Saves the refs little ego at being overruled and gives VAR purpose.
This is the problem with it. The refs are all too protective of each other.
On field referees will always make mistakes especially when Klopp is on at them and the Anfield crowd is shouting for everything. VAR was supposed to bring a level of objectivity and clarity into refereeing, but unless it's a glaring and indefensible error the VAR ref will not intefere with the on field decision. The VAR referees are more concerned with not highlighting their mate's errors than using the system properly. If VAR was to work with them instead of overruling them maybe they would use it properly.
I always want ETH to start talking about this regularly. They're deciding games and are easily influenced by manager comments.
VAR isn’t really flawed, its just poorly executed. It also it not there to get every decision right, its there to improve the outcome of decisions. The people in the VAR room should be independent of match referees (there is too much conflict of interest) in my opinion, especially when they are reluctant to make their fellow referee look bad.
At the end of the day it still humans making decisions so there will be errors, what you want is less errors then before.
In this case if there is a split between whether people believe its a penalty or not then its not a clear and obvious error and VAR cannot intervene.
Also is VAR really ruining football as a spectacle? I tend to find that view quite dramatic, but I guess it must for some people.
The main thing that annoys me about VAR is that the referees seem to want more to protect themselves than to implement a system properly.
I’d love to see a poll from match-going fans. I’m willing to bet that 90%+ would say that VAR has made football less enjoyable to watch. And their entertainment should be the main priority with football.
For those who aren’t at the games it might be a stretch to say the game is being ruined as a spectacle but there’s definitely a stronger sense of injustice since VAR was rolled out. And I don’t see how anyone can enjoy watching a sport as much as they did before if they’ve become convinced that the game is corrupt.
So the foul on Wout in the penalty area went unpunished with a penalty but yesterday the same action was given as a penalty.
Makes you think why Liverpool are getting every decision game after game !!
Makes you think why Liverpool are getting every decision game after game !!
Not even the same, does the lad even touch Nunez?! It's ridiculous.
This is where we need a referee to come out after the game and say that he made a mistake but that VAR should have cleared it up. Until a referee does that, we're going to carry on with these ridiculous decisions to not overrule the on-field call.
I don't disagree with that, but I also am aware of the media campaign against VAR before its arrival and during its implementation.
And tonight we have Andre Marriner!
OMG!!
OMG!!
Change "Clear and Obvious" to "Reasonable Doubt" and I reckon you improve VAR massively.
You think the sense of injustice that screams out from every thread about refereeing this season is down to a media campaign?!
No, the sense of injustice about refereeing decisions precedes VAR (and it was very strong); what I am saying is the campaign against VAR started well before VAR was even introduced, along with a lot of miss information. Which has contributed in my opinion to a lot of the negativity that surrounds it (not all of it)
Still, I have gripes about VAR, especially its implementation as I mentioned above.
It's like the VAR doesn't want to undermine the referee, I don't know why they don't just get the refs to look at the screen then make the decision himself if he got something wrong or not
I think they need to have it so, when an on field ref makes a decision to give a pen or a straight red. He immediately goes to the monitor and reviews the footage alongside the VAR. Forget clear and obvious when the ref has made a decision we need to make sure that decision is correct. Give the refs the opportunity to immediately check there own decisions. You may find they are more confident to make a decision initially on-field if they can immediately check it themselves, and have the fallback of actually looking themselves.
I don't think the goal should be to undermine the referee, but I think this is the issue. The VAR making a decision that overrules the ref is not undermining the referee.
In my work as a software engineer we have checks and balances, when I commit some code, there is a code review, I don't see it as someone undermining me if they point out a mistake or suggest an improvement we are all one team.
The need for one person to be in control is a bit of an issue, in my opinion. Obviously, referees feel/felt threatened by VAR in some way I imagine.
Also if the person who make the original decision is the one doing the review, then you are susceptible to more errors due to confirmation bias.
But Nunez takes a completely normal stride with his left foot and plants the foot as if he wasn't touched, then for some reason his left leg collapses.
The refs were giving it the "is the fall proportional to the contact?" thing in that there would be an end to "soft penalties", and this is exactly what I thought they meant. Minimal contact, player could easily keep running but chooses to go down under minimal contact.
https://www.espn.com/soccer/english...mp-to-cut-soft-penaltiessave-20-offside-goals
Exactly. Surely most referees would want to make the correct decision most of the time? The VAR's role should be to say "it's possible that another decision might be more correct here, go to the monitor and have a look". If we want the maximum amount of maximally correct calls, that is, which it doesn't seem that the PGMOL is interested in.
This "clear and obvious" threshold just introduces another layer of subjectivity where the VAR can randomly intervene on something that isn't clear and obvious, and randomly choose to not intervene on something that is clear and obvious, for reasons known only to themselves.
I'd imagine that Attwell, considering he's supposedly told Fulham players he made a mistake, would have wanted the opportunity to make the right decision. So remove the VAR and replace them with video technicians, allow the ref himself to check a call that he might feel he hasn't properly seen and let the teams force the ref to the monitor for a limited amount of times per game (with the challenges being kept if successful). That way the ref only has to feel that the other decision is more correct than the one he made, and we'd get more correct calls.
"But what about time-wasting" you ask? The VAR in Newcastle-Brentford that awarded the penalty against Isak looked at 23 replays, presumably to ascertain whether the mistake to not award the penalty was "clear and obvious", and after the 23rd replay he decided that it was obvious. It took five minutes from the incident until the penalty was awarded, because after those 23 replays the ref still had to go to the monitor and "decide", although now everyone in the stadium knew he'd been told he'd made a clear and obvious mistake. If a team challenges that decision, and the ref goes out, I can assure you that it won't take more than 23 replays for the ref to decide the correct decision based on a balance of probability. If a team challenges a pen that is in no way a pen, only to waste time, then it'd take 2-3 replays (plus the time for the ref to run out to the monitor and back) to decide, which would be somewhere around 45 seconds.
From the Dale Johnson ESPN column, highlighting the problem with VAR (bold mine)
Edit: More nuggets from this week's column. Exasperation increases for every paragraph
Anyway, it can't get more annoying now, can it?
Still confused, and not even on a higher level.
So if a referee should have given a red card, then you can argue that giving a yellow card isn't necessarily a clear and obvious mistake. But if the referee even fails to produce a yellow card for something that "should be" a red, then surely the mistake is clear and obvious?
Edit: More nuggets from this week's column. Exasperation increases for every paragraph
Conveniently, Dale Johnson was out travelling when the Casemiro incident happened so he still hasn't commented on that.
Anyway, it can't get more annoying now, can it?
Oh you mean like Nuñez who was slightly struck from the left side on his knee (if even that), managed to plant the foot and then went flying three yards forward?
Still confused, and not even on a higher level.
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There will never be clearly defined objective criteria for what constitutes "clear and obvious" so there's no solution to this problem.
You are highlighting issues with the implementation and the fact the people implementing it have an interest to defend their own decisions.
That is not an issue with VAR itself as a tool.
If the panel agree that the referee has made a mistake then they should intervene. That was always the premise. Its basically supposed to be a peer review panel and its a panel because if they all agree then you have grounds to say that its clear and obvious and if they don't all agree then you have grounds to say its ambiguous.
Once you then try to add any other dimension over and above a unanimous panel decision you break the system.
The system cannot get everything right because it has human elements. When you attempt to manipulate a simple system so to optimise to get everything right (increase the threshold, let the referee have another look etc) you break the system
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That is a very good idea.
They should have a smartphone or tablet to review decisions, a screen at the edge of the pitch is unnecessary.
So who is making the calls if not referee? And if he knew it wasn't penalty why did they call it penalty. This is why it is important with transparency. We urgently need mics and cams on referees and VAR room. Thee is no way around. As soon as people get that it will be for the better.
i agree the process needs mics and we need to hear their reasoning because it is being ruined right now. Think as was mentioned it just feels like VAR is trying to not go against refs whenever they can help it, as if having the audacity to have the ref check it out on video is going to be an insult to them
I look forward to the PMGOL apology for the "free kick" and "yellow card" which led to that corner and the handball. No chance do they get that without Marriner giving that terrible dive as a foul.
We are genuinely getting shagged by the refs this season.
That "foul" on Encisco, for which Shaw was booked by the way, was an absolute farce. Brighton don't win the game without it.
That "foul" on Encisco, for which Shaw was booked by the way, was an absolute farce. Brighton don't win the game without it.
If our club don't come out in every way it can we deserve this every week. We need official statements from the club and we need tenHag to answer every question by mentioning decisions against us. We need investigation. This is not normal. We are being done by referees and VAR over and over.
Thank God VAR exists so that results are no longer determined by controversy.
Every. fecking. week.
Every. fecking. week.
We should refuse to play any match Marriner gets assigned to us as the ref or var
As much as we have ourselves to blame we are continuously being absolutely fecked over by the refs.
Sickening, absolutely fecking sickening.
Sickening, absolutely fecking sickening.
Agreed. 3 point swing created by referees in 24 hours with Liverpool "penalty" and that Brighton "free kick".
We are running out of referees who should be deemed acceptable to officiate our games.
The whole lot are as spineless, arrogant and incompetent as it gets.
Casemiro could have had a red, Antony was lucky booting MacAllister and Shaw arguably should have had a 2nd yellow (his first was a joke) for the penalty. Ref was shite but things also went in our favour too.
What was it with the freekick before the corner kick leading to Shaw handball? If you can't see the difference between simulation and a foul standing that close, there is just no hope