VAR and Refs | General Discussion | May 15: Premier League clubs to vote on proposal to scrap VAR from next season

[Lentwood]

The tip of a toe brushing off a sock isn't a foul. He should've been booked for diving, the cheating cnut.

Correct but then the VAR system is currently designed in a way that rewards cheating, so of course players will cheat.

 

[BaguetteBoy]

Never a pen. Even more baffling than the VVD decision from Wednesday.

Not that baffling really!? one against us the other against Klopp last season top of the league team.

 

[Oranges038]

Correct but then the VAR system is currently designed in a way that rewards cheating, so of course players will cheat.

If contact is made and the player throws themselves down, then VAR will not overturn. It's been seen loads of times this season already, throw yourself down, even if the VAR says no penalty you won't get booked for diving, because of the contact, no matter how small and insignificant it is.

The players know this and cheating is being rewarded, it's disgraceful.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If contact is made and the player throws themselves down, then VAR will not overturn. It's been seen loads of times this season already, throw yourself down, even if the VAR says no penalty you won't get booked for diving, because of the contact, no matter how small and insignificant it is.

The players know this and cheating is being rewarded, it's disgraceful.

I’m almost certain there was some edict, before the season started, about clamping down on the scenarios where players “manufacture contact”. The ones where they hang a leg out creating contact where it wouldn’t otherwise happen (basically what happened last night) Didn’t we see a few penalties not given on this basis earlier that season? Have they just given up on all of that? Or have I imagined the whole thing?!?

 

[Fr. Todd Unctious]

Guaranteed there'd have been a media meltdown if we'd have gotten a penalty like that last night. The same media that have constantly stayed quiet about Liverpool

 

[Fr. Todd Unctious]

If contact is made and the player throws themselves down, then VAR will not overturn. It's been seen loads of times this season already, throw yourself down, even if the VAR says no penalty you won't get booked for diving, because of the contact, no matter how small and insignificant it is.

The players know this and cheating is being rewarded, it's disgraceful.

That cnut Tierney was on last night if that had been down the other end he'd have 100% said no penalty

 

[Oranges038]

I’m almost certain there was some edict, before the season started, about clamping down on the scenarios where players “manufacture contact”. The ones where they hang a leg out creating contact where it wouldn’t otherwise happen (basically what happened last night) Didn’t we see a few penalties not given on this basis earlier that season? Have they just given up on all of that? Or have I imagined the whole thing?!?

Yeah, manufactured contact was discussed at some point, dangling a leg or whatever, but I don't think I've seen it punished as a dive or anything, maybe just no penalty given.

But this isn't even manufactured contact, Casemiro pulls his foot away, maybe brushed the shin guard. And that little bit of contact is enough to convince VAR and the ref that the dive is worthy of a penalty. It's a joke.

 

[Oranges038]

That cnut Tierney was on last night if that had been down the other end he'd have 100% said no penalty

Maybe so, but to be convinced that's a penalty the day after his performance at Anfield, it's a joke. He should be made explain those decisions.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Maybe so, but to be convinced that's a penalty the day after his performance at Anfield, it's a joke. He should be made explain those decisions.

He doesn’t really need to explain them. It’s the way VAR is set up. This stupid notion that extreme evidence is needed to contradict the onfield decision. In both scenarios he was consistent in not challenging the referee’s original call.

And this is all part of the way VAR constantly moves goalposts and pisses us fans off whatever happens. First we endured the over fussy nitpicking, so they change the way it is implemented to stress the whole “clear and obvious” thing. Now we’re enduring the opposite extreme. The whole thing is an irredeemable shambles which should never have been implemented in football.

 

[Oranges038]

He doesn’t really need to explain them. It’s the way VAR is set up. This stupid notion that extreme evidence is needed to contradict the onfield decision. And it’s all part of the way VAR inevitably moves goalposts and pisses us fans off whatever happens. First we endured the over fussy nitpicking, so they change the way it is implemented to stress the whole “clear and obvious” thing. Now we’re enduring the opposite extreme. The whole thing is an irredeemable shambles which should never have been implemented in football.

100% agree with that.

Football without VAR is much better.

 

[Ahmer Baig]

The refs will do everything in their power to ensure that Klopp wins the title in his final season.

 

[11101]

When FIFA wonders why they can't crack the US market they just need to look at that dive and the decision that followed it.

 

[Lentwood]

I’m almost certain there was some edict, before the season started, about clamping down on the scenarios where players “manufacture contact”. The ones where they hang a leg out creating contact where it wouldn’t otherwise happen (basically what happened last night) Didn’t we see a few penalties not given on this basis earlier that season? Have they just given up on all of that? Or have I imagined the whole thing?!?

Well this is the farce of the whole system isn't it.

The directive says that there has to be significant contact for a penalty to be given. So if an attacker goes down in the box and a penalty is NOT given on-field, the bar for giving a penalty is high (see McT vs Palace last season!)

At the same time, if a penalty IS given on field, then ANY contact at all, however inconsequential, will result in the on-pitch decision standing.

99% of people watching that last night will have said Neto dived but yet also everybody watching knew there was 0% chance it would be overturned

 

[cyberman]

100% agree with that.

Football without VAR is much better.

To be fair, the shit penalties in the Liverpool game and last night were on pitch decisions.
What annoys me about Liverpools is the fact VAR didn’t bottle the pen because it was a pen but because VVD would have had to be sent off as well. You can’t say clattering into a player a few yards from goal 1v1 with the keeper with his knee is a genuine attempt only the ball.
It’s a shambles

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well this is the farce of the whole system isn't it.

The directive says that there has to be significant contact for a penalty to be given. So if an attacker goes down in the box and a penalty is NOT given on-field, the bar for giving a penalty is high (see McT vs Palace last season!)

At the same time, if a penalty IS given on field, then ANY contact at all, however inconsequential, will result in the on-pitch decision standing.

99% of people watching that last night will have said Neto dived but yet also everybody watching knew there was 0% chance it would be overturned

Exactly. Plus the knowledge that VAR is in use, will influence how the referees behave on the pitch.

The issue isn't how the system is being administered, it's the nature of the system itself. This is a feature not a bug.

 

[Dansk]

It almost cost United points yet again. As bad as we’ve been this season, you can point to at least 5 games where the outcome could have been United having more points too. Against teams that are in the top 6 as well!

This. A lot of people are saying all they want is consistency, and while that's valid enough, it's an equally big problem that certain clubs are routinely either robbed or gifted results by these questionable decisions. For a long time now, United have been absolutely swindled by the refs, and the trend is far too clear to ever be written off as happenstance. Very nearly every game we play, we are either denied a stonewall penalty or our opponents get the softest penalty in the world. It's legitimately almost every game we play. Our players also can't set one foot wrong without getting carded while our opponents get away with anything--and at this point, every player in the Prem knows that it's borderline impossible to get sent off against United, so they play with that in mind and leave our players limping off the pitch after the final whistle. Our manager gets sanctioned if he so much as glances at the assistant ref while the likes of Klopp and Pep are allowed to scream at them throughout their games. It's so obvious. This is not some victimhood complex.

And we all know why, too. If a ref makes a call that favours United, it's scrutinized in the media for a week and two thirds of pundits will automatically say it was incorrect, no matter how ludicrous a statement that is. Meanwhile, if he fecks United over, nobody bats an eye and half the country is gleefully rubbing their hands and loving it. It's no mystery why this affects the referees' decisionmaking. Meanwhile, for a club like Liverpool, it's the opposite: a questionable decision that goes against them is treated as a crime against humanity and the ref risks literal demotion whereas a questionable decision that favours them will have the pundits doing mental gymnastics to look for ways to justify it. We see the same thing with former players becoming pundits: if it's a former United player, he's only accepted in those circles if he converts to a decidedly anti-United stance, ala Neville, while the likes of Carragher are allowed to openly cheerlead for their former club and be a biased as they want because their former club is the media darling.

It's just sickening and exhausting. So are the people who are still thick-headed enough to deny that this is happening, because it takes a special level of witless denial to remain blind to it. It has been going on for some time now, and it's painfully obvious. Equally frustrating is the way you can't bring this up anywhere but here, because if you were to try to mention it in a place like /r/soccer or some other open football forum, you will see the same thing happening every time: "nothing a United fan says is ever allowed to be correct, so you're automatically wrong." That same mindset is the reason refs get away with blatantly sabotaging this club. People love that it happens, and simultaneously refuse to acknowledge that it does.

 

[mctrials23]

On the topic of manufactured contact, I haven't really noticed many penalties given for that. The issue at the moment is that when there is any contact its a penalty if the ref gives it. Conversely there can be quite a lot of contact and if the ref doesn't give it, its not a penalty. It makes 0 sense.

 

[stevoc]

Make contact in the box and you give an attacker the opportunity to drop like a sack of spuds. Then it's upto VAR and let's be honest after the 2 weeks of press whining over the decision that went against Wolves in August they were always getting at least one soft decision last night.

 

[NotChatGPT]

It's a similar penalty to the one that got Taylor demoted for a weekend.

Funnily enough

 

[Berbasbullet]

This. A lot of people are saying all they want is consistency, and while that's valid enough, it's an equally big problem that certain clubs are routinely either robbed or gifted results by these questionable decisions. For a long time now, United have been absolutely swindled by the refs, and the trend is far too clear to ever be written off as happenstance. Very nearly every game we play, we are either denied a stonewall penalty or our opponents get the softest penalty in the world. It's legitimately almost every game we play. Our players also can't set one foot wrong without getting carded while our opponents get away with anything--and at this point, every player in the Prem knows that it's borderline impossible to get sent off against United, so they play with that in mind and leave our players limping off the pitch after the final whistle. Our manager gets sanctioned if he so much as glances at the assistant ref while the likes of Klopp and Pep are allowed to scream at them throughout their games. It's so obvious. This is not some victimhood complex.

And we all know why, too. If a ref makes a call that favours United, it's scrutinized in the media for a week and two thirds of pundits will automatically say it was incorrect, no matter how ludicrous a statement that is. Meanwhile, if he fecks United over, nobody bats an eye and half the country is gleefully rubbing their hands and loving it. It's no mystery why this affects the referees' decisionmaking. Meanwhile, for a club like Liverpool, it's the opposite: a questionable decision that goes against them is treated as a crime against humanity and the ref risks literal demotion whereas a questionable decision that favours them will have the pundits doing mental gymnastics to look for ways to justify it. We see the same thing with former players becoming pundits: if it's a former United player, he's only accepted in those circles if he converts to a decidedly anti-United stance, ala Neville, while the likes of Carragher are allowed to openly cheerlead for their former club and be a biased as they want because their former club is the media darling.

It's just sickening and exhausting. So are the people who are still thick-headed enough to deny that this is happening, because it takes a special level of witless denial to remain blind to it. It has been going on for some time now, and it's painfully obvious. Equally frustrating is the way you can't bring this up anywhere but here, because if you were to try to mention it in a place like /r/soccer or some other open football forum, you will see the same thing happening every time: "nothing a United fan says is ever allowed to be correct, so you're automatically wrong." That same mindset is the reason refs get away with blatantly sabotaging this club. People love that it happens, and simultaneously refuse to acknowledge that it does.

Pretty much how I feel.

 

[Fitchett]

This. A lot of people are saying all they want is consistency, and while that's valid enough, it's an equally big problem that certain clubs are routinely either robbed or gifted results by these questionable decisions. For a long time now, United have been absolutely swindled by the refs, and the trend is far too clear to ever be written off as happenstance. Very nearly every game we play, we are either denied a stonewall penalty or our opponents get the softest penalty in the world. It's legitimately almost every game we play. Our players also can't set one foot wrong without getting carded while our opponents get away with anything--and at this point, every player in the Prem knows that it's borderline impossible to get sent off against United, so they play with that in mind and leave our players limping off the pitch after the final whistle. Our manager gets sanctioned if he so much as glances at the assistant ref while the likes of Klopp and Pep are allowed to scream at them throughout their games. It's so obvious. This is not some victimhood complex.

And we all know why, too. If a ref makes a call that favours United, it's scrutinized in the media for a week and two thirds of pundits will automatically say it was incorrect, no matter how ludicrous a statement that is. Meanwhile, if he fecks United over, nobody bats an eye and half the country is gleefully rubbing their hands and loving it. It's no mystery why this affects the referees' decisionmaking. Meanwhile, for a club like Liverpool, it's the opposite: a questionable decision that goes against them is treated as a crime against humanity and the ref risks literal demotion whereas a questionable decision that favours them will have the pundits doing mental gymnastics to look for ways to justify it. We see the same thing with former players becoming pundits: if it's a former United player, he's only accepted in those circles if he converts to a decidedly anti-United stance, ala Neville, while the likes of Carragher are allowed to openly cheerlead for their former club and be a biased as they want because their former club is the media darling.

It's just sickening and exhausting. So are the people who are still thick-headed enough to deny that this is happening, because it takes a special level of witless denial to remain blind to it. It has been going on for some time now, and it's painfully obvious. Equally frustrating is the way you can't bring this up anywhere but here, because if you were to try to mention it in a place like /r/soccer or some other open football forum, you will see the same thing happening every time: "nothing a United fan says is ever allowed to be correct, so you're automatically wrong." That same mindset is the reason refs get away with blatantly sabotaging this club. People love that it happens, and simultaneously refuse to acknowledge that it does.

100% correct Sir!

 

[11101]

On the topic of manufactured contact, I haven't really noticed many penalties given for that. The issue at the moment is that when there is any contact its a penalty if the ref gives it. Conversely there can be quite a lot of contact and if the ref doesn't give it, its not a penalty. It makes 0 sense.

If he hadnt given that, there would be a zoomed in close up of the contact on the back page of every newspaper in the country.

It's far easier to give a decision against us and wait for VAR to tell you if it was clearly wrong. Nothing will change until we start going after them post game.

 

[Lentwood]

Exactly. Plus the knowledge that VAR is in use, will influence how the referees behave on the pitch.

The issue isn't how the system is being administered, it's the nature of the system itself. This is a feature not a bug.

Yeah so take last night, it looked to me like the referee pointed to the spot almost apologetically, in quite an uncertain manner.

I am 100% sure that referees are now giving decisions based on the thought process of "I can always overturn it if I am wrong"...but clearly that creates a huge issue when the parameters are different based on the on-field decision.

Going slightly on a tangent here but with all of the technology we have now, why can't images be beamed back to Stockley Park as simulations of the incident...so have computer generated images of the players wearing neutral colours.

Then ask a 5-person panel of officials to vote on a decision anonymously - and crucially you also don't tell them the on-field decision.

If four out of five agree on a decision, and that decision is different from the on-field decision, then the on-field decision is overturned.

So for the penalty last night, five officials watch a computer generated image of a footballer in a white shirt go down under a challenge from a footballer in a pink shirt. They don't know the on-field decision but they are asked the simple question - penalty? Yes or no. If four vote "no" the on-field decision (which was 'yes' is overturned)

Then you can remove all the nonsense about "high-bars" and inconsistent rules...you just ask 5 'experts "how do you interpret this?"

 

[Annihilate Now!]

That penalty was a total joke. Never a penaly and absolutely ridiculous that VAR didn't get involved. It also totally exposes the logic flaw in VAR - because they're looking for any shred of evidence/contact to back up the refs view, yet the ref obviously thinks that a far bigger kick has taken place - and I venture if he was to watch it on the screen would have reversed his decision.

 

[Withnail]

It all goes back to the first season that they introduced it, VAR was correctly overturning decisions left, right and centre but effectively undermining the referees judgement.. Ref's got fed up with looking like they'd made mistakes all the time so now they just use it to justify whatever the ref thinks and to add drama when they fancy it

This stupid bloody mindset needs to go. It's not a mistake. You just can't see everything happening at break-neck speed with your flesh eyes in a pressurized environment.

Nobody's feelings or ego should be hurt when using technology to get it the correct decision.

 

[Fitchett]

Yeah so take last night, it looked to me like the referee pointed to the spot almost apologetically, in quite an uncertain manner.

I am 100% sure that referees are now giving decisions based on the thought process of "I can always overturn it if I am wrong"...but clearly that creates a huge issue when the parameters are different based on the on-field decision.

Going slightly on a tangent here but with all of the technology we have now, why can't images be beamed back to Stockley Park as simulations of the incident...so have computer generated images of the players wearing neutral colours.

Then ask a 5-person panel of officials to vote on a decision anonymously - and crucially you also don't tell them the on-field decision.

If four out of five agree on a decision, and that decision is different from the on-field decision, then the on-field decision is overturned.

So for the penalty last night, five officials watch a computer generated image of a footballer in a white shirt go down under a challenge from a footballer in a pink shirt. They don't know the on-field decision but they are asked the simple question - penalty? Yes or no. If four vote "no" the on-field decision (which was 'yes' is overturned)

Then you can remove all the nonsense about "high-bars" and inconsistent rules...you just ask 5 'experts "how do you interpret this?"

Great idea, which I fully support. However, it's far too logical and would never be accepted by the Premier League or PGMOL, as it removes their ability to manipulate matches to suit their agenda.

 

[NICanRed]

So if we have to accept that "contact" = penalty. Then Neto won a penalty.
BUT did the contact bring him down? I doubt it - so Neto dived!!
Is there any reason that the referee couldnt award the penalty but also issue a yellow to the diver?
There is a whole other subject for the fans, pundits and players to digest.

 

[Gordon S]

I think VAR is good. We should definitely use the technology that exists.
But how they use it currently is just madness. Just can not understand their logic.
Netos dive was obvious, not even his mom would have been able to say differently with a straight face.
The whole point of VAR should be to help the ref to NOT make wrong decisions in real time. Look at it again with the help of VAR, is it a feckin penalty or not. Yes or no. Regardless of what the poor ref had to call in the heat of the moment.
Now, the guys in the VAR room gets to see Netos embarrasing dive in slow motion replays, from 5 different angles, and are by the rules not allowed to say anything since they can`t prove with 100% certainty that Casemiros boot didn`t grace Netos socks.
If Casemiros boot was half a foot off his pads, the ref would probably have seen it in real time and not call it. Which makes the VAR completely redundant.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Newcastle’s fourth goal. The most obvious foul you will ever see wins Newcastle the ball for Barnes to score. No intervention from VAR. Remind me the point of this poxy technology?

 

[Desert Eagle]

How do they always stop play for a head injury except for when a team is attacking us?

 

[Stobzilla]

Launch this cnut into the sea.

 

[Samid]

LiVARpool at it yet again. Laughable.

 

[Shane88]

That's a fecking penalty. What world is Neville and those other twats on commentary living in?

McAllister tangles his legs up with Havertz and doesn't get anywhere near the ball.

 

[Pexbo]

WWE.

 

[90 + 5min]

LiVARpool. This team has so much luck with decisions.

 

[Bangor_Red]

LiVARpool at it yet again. Laughable.

Absolutely joke. Only able to win the ball by playing through the man. Yet jota gets one cos the keepers sleeve fibres glance his foot few weeks ago

 

[Withnail]

That's a fecking penalty. What world is Neville and those other twats on commentary living in?

McAllister tangles his legs up with Havertz and doesn't get anywhere near the ball.

He claimed it was a good tackle as the replay showed him causing Havertz to go down before he got near the ball.

 

[Bangor_Red]

He claimed it was a good tackle as the replay showed him causing Havertz to go down before he got near the ball.

Seemed like another tackle exactly the same by van dijk on odegaard which left him in a heap while Liverpool played on

 

[90 + 5min]

Klopp saying everything went against them when it comes to decisions. He is doing that with a smile and both him and reporter are talking like mates. No hard and tough questions at all. The only thing that is missing is coffee and some cake. Talk about putting pressure on referees. He did forgot to mention how once again Liverpool didn't get penalty against them. 4th in 2 games.

 

[Withnail]

Klopp saying everything went against them when it comes to decisions. He is doing that with a smile and both him and reporter are talking like mates. No hard and tough questions at all. The only thing that is missing is coffee and some cake. Talk about putting pressure on referees. He did forgot to mention how once again Liverpool didn't get penalty against them. 4th in 2 games.

He's such a sore loser and gets an easy ride every time. I suppose every manager should flip the lid and be an insufferable cnut when anyone makes a mild joke about fixture congestion.