VAR and Refs | General Discussion

LawCharltonBest said:
You can't convince me that if United got those same calls it wouldn't be a huge football talking point today. Compared to the tumbleweed it is since United were cost by them.

The terrible refereeing is a much wider issue than just United, but it's very clear that they're particularly afraid to give us decisions. Look at the ridiculous backlash to that Fernandes goal vs City. Couldn't put a football channel on without them pounding on about it with saliva dripping through their teeth, eyes wide and red. Had calls at least as bad, if not worse than that, in 80% of the matches since with not a peep.

Look at the penalty you got against us. Seen that happen at least 3 times in every match since against us. No penalties. And when did an opposition player last get sent off against United?

Wider issue, but United are particularly vulnerable.
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Andy Carroll wasn't it? But only after he'd put Eriksen out for the season with a far more reckless tackle than Caemiro's yesterday that he didn't even get booked for.
 
cyberman said:
There’s a clear line when we were getting fair, or even more than fair, VAR calls to when Klopp and Pep complained about it while pointing it out.
It’s gone to shit since then. I genuinely can’t think of the last on field penalty call we’ve gotten. Every single decision that has to be made gets ignored by the ref. I’d understand if we got pens that were overturned etc but not to have one pen call called in the first place is ridiculous.
I don’t think it’s a conspiracy but it’s 100 percent the refs showing they won’t be intimidated by the biggest team in England and they get to show how fair and balanced they are.
Honestly, I watch every game and I cannot remember the last decision we got that was overturned by VAR never mind penalties. It points to referees being over cautious with us which fecks the team over. Any decision that’s anywhere close in our favour and it’s simply not given.
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Fair enough I guess, if you really think this. I don't watch United anywhere near as much or as closely as you guys, so I can't discuss specific ref performances against you. It was just the idea I had trouble buying.
 
stevoc said:
Just because every set of fans believe they're being fecked over by the refs it doesn't mean that one or more teams aren't actually being fecked over by the refs though.

I'm sure even during some of the infamous match fixing scandals and Ref bribing incidents over the last 40 years that the fans of those teams benefitting from dodgy the decisions still thought they were being hard done by. That's just the nature of being a football fan.
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If every other fanbase thinks the same as you and can bring their own laundry list of evidence to the table, then is not just general incompetence rather than a problem unique to United? I argue with Chelsea fans about this all the time. It's a very popular topic in Chelsea circles too, 'the refs are against us, the media are against us' etc.
 
WeePat said:
Fair enough I guess, if you really think this. I don't watch United anywhere near as much or as closely as you guys, so I can't discuss specific ref performances against you. It was just the idea I had trouble buying.
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I might be reading too much into it but the complete lack of VAR overturning decisions in our favour means they think referees are so good at officiating United that they don’t need VAR. literally decades of football before this has shown otherwise. It’s just funny how they keep making mistakes for the opposition despite it being the same game.
Maybe I’ll calm down by next week but I can’t see how it would change anything
 
cyberman said:
I might be reading too much into it but the complete lack of VAR overturning decisions in our favour means they think referees are so good as officiating United that they don’t need VAR. literally decades of football before this has shown otherwise.
Maybe I’ll calm down by next week but I can’t see how it would change anything
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I was just saying to myself to ease off and leave the topic alone as you guys are hotly fresh off a really bad ref experience. I hope I didn't come across as goading or provocative while everyone is clearly still very annoyed about yesterday.
 
WeePat said:
If every other fanbase thinks the same as you and can bring their own laundry list of evidence to the table, then is not just general incompetence rather than a problem unique to United? I argue with Chelsea fans about this all the time. It's a very popular topic in Chelsea circles too, 'the refs are against us, the media are against us' etc.
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That's exactly whatit is, poor reffing standards exacerbated by some of the worst and random implementation of a technology that is meant to actually help things (but mostly doesn't).

Every team in the country thinks refs are out to get them, because refs are shit
 
Ole'sgunnarwin said:
I think we are getting a bit hard done by this season but not as much as people are saying.

What winds me up is the reason refs go to check the screen. Its not for 50/50 calls like the handball incident yesterday. They only go when they're 99% sure they'll change their original decision. Since VAR came in I can't think of any time a ref stuck to the original decision. Its a waste of time, everyone knows what's gonna happen.
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There is a reason for that though. The entire point (according to the refereeing organisation) is to only send the ref to the monitor when a big error has been made. However, this has the psychological effect of the ref being pretty much forced to reverse the decision upon being sent to the screen, because now everyone watching at home and in the stadium knows that the ref has been told by his colleague that he’s made a big error.

And then you get the decision yesterday, when one referee takes it upon himself to break the VAR protocol, send him to the screen for something that isn’t a clear and obvious error and put him under pressure to change his mind.
 
The bald head bastard former referee on sky just said Casemiro didn't win the ball, but he skimmed it?

You just can't win and idiots like these are given nationwide platforms to justify terrible decisions
 
WeePat said:
If every other fanbase thinks the same as you and can bring their own laundry list of evidence to the table, then is not just general incompetence rather than a problem unique to United? I argue with Chelsea fans about this all the time. It's a very popular topic in Chelsea circles too, 'the refs are against us, the media are against us' etc.
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Incompetence is definitely a big part of it, but as others have said with United being the biggest club if we get a controversial decision in our favour like the one vs City. It then get's blown all out of proportion and the media drone on about it for days. Since that match we've barely had a decision go our way in the league and Domestic cups. That's not down solely to incompetence, referees are being influenced the negative criticism they will get from awarding United big decisions.

Also the main point of my last post was just because every one thinks the Refs are out to get their team it doesn't rule out the possibility that Refs are being bribed or match fixing isn't occurring. As we've seen in France, Italy and now Spain over the last 30 years.
 
Ceteris said:
The bald head bastard former referee on sky just said Casemiro didn't win the ball, but he skimmed it?

You just can't win and idiots like these are given nationwide platforms to justify terrible decisions
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Did Gallagher even comment on the three penalties that we could have got? The sky video just shows him talking about the red card.
 
Shinjch said:
Did Gallagher even comment on the three penalties that we could have got? The sky video just shows him talking about the red card.
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Suprise, he doesn't think it was a penalty for the handball
 
stevoc said:
I don't think there's any organised conspiracy either but Referees are humans and will have their biases conscience or otherwise. And I've watched football long enough to notice a pattern that certain refs feck over certain teams more often than not.
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Yeah of course

Just for clarity, my saying the quoted part above wasn't a direct reply to your post, so I hope it didn't come across like I thought that's what your post was insinuating
 
LawCharltonBest said:
You can't convince me that if United got those same calls it wouldn't be a huge football talking point today. Compared to the tumbleweed it is since United were cost by them.

The terrible refereeing is a much wider issue than just United, but it's very clear that they're particularly afraid to give us decisions. Look at the ridiculous backlash to that Fernandes goal vs City. Couldn't put a football channel on without them pounding on about it with saliva dripping through their teeth, eyes wide and red. Had calls at least as bad, if not worse than that, in 80% of the matches since with not a peep.

Look at the penalty you got against us. Seen that happen at least 3 times in every match since against us. No penalties. And when did an opposition player last get sent off against United?

Wider issue, but United are particularly vulnerable.
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Yup 100%. Especially as that Fernandes decision was actually a correct decision (whether people agree with it or not is a different issue, but it is a correct decision by the rules). Yet they all lost their minds.
 
Marriner seems questionable to me in how he carefully selects the footage against Palace to look like Case had someone by the neck when it was by the collar and both players were having a laugh about it. Marriner ignored Palace players actually hitting our player in the face. It's very suspicious.

Yesterday the ref gives a yellow for Case. Since Howard Webb came in we've seen a strong lack of intervention yet Marriner decides to intervene. I've seen many tackles that if slowed down at certain angles and asked the pitch ref to have a look again he would probably give a red. The game wants to get away from that and even when VAR was being overused I don't recall similar tackles not inside the area having that much attention after the on pitch ref already decided on the action from VAR. To see many bad tackles with no intervention (even under Marriner) and then see the Case tackle get intervention after the ref already decided a yellow was enough after seeing it close up in real time really makes me question Marriner. It wasn't a clear and obvious error, the ref saw it close up and gave a yellow, I think it was 50/50 and like so many other tackles there was no need to intervene otherwise we'd have unnecessary stoppages, a yellow was given, play on. Marriner is deliberately very selective.
 
redshaw said:
Marriner seem questionable to me in how he carefully selects the footage against Palace to look like Case had someone by the neck when it was by the collar and both players were having a laugh about it. Marriner ignored Palace players actually hitting our player in the face. It's very suspicious.

Yesterday the ref gives a yellow for Case. Since Howard Webb came in we've seen a strong lack over intervention yet Marriner decides to intervene. I've seen many tackles that if slowed down at certain angles and asked the pitch ref to have a look again he would probably give a red. The game wants to get away from that and even when VAR was being overused I don't recall similar tackles not inside the area having that much attention after the on pitch ref already decided on the action from VAR. To see many bad tackles with no intervention (even under Marriner) and then see the Case tackle get intervention after the ref already decided a yellow was enough after seeing it close up in real time really makes me question Marriner. It wasn't a clear and obvious error, the ref saw it close up and gave a yellow, I think it was 50/50 and like so many other tackles there was no need to intervene otherwise we'd have unnecessary stoppages, a yellow was given, play on. Marriner is deliberately very selective.
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Mariner was the onfield ref against palace
 
LawCharltonBest said:
Yeah of course

Just for clarity, my saying the quoted part above wasn't a direct reply to your post, so I hope it didn't come across like I thought that's what your post was insinuating
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Not at all mate I knew what you meant I was just agreeing with you.
 
bosnian_red said:
Yup 100%. Especially as that Fernandes decision was actually a correct decision (whether people agree with it or not is a different issue, but it is a correct decision by the rules). Yet they all lost their minds.
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That's the thing. It doesn't even have to be Roy Carroll scooping the ball out the net from 10 feet behind the line any more for people to make a fuss about United getting a decision. Just something that's gone United's way when it could easily not have is enough to blast the images all over the Sports channels relentlessly for days on end now.

I'm not in any way surprised that referees don't want to give United a decision if they have a seed of doubt because they have no reason to put their balls on the line for United, and they know they have an easy life if they ignore it and nobody will question it.

But the referees need to be braver and United need to be proactive in addressing this. It'll be the same again against Fulham and beyond otherwise.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
You can't convince me that if United got those same calls it wouldn't be a huge football talking point today. Compared to the tumbleweed it is since United were cost by them.

The terrible refereeing is a much wider issue than just United, but it's very clear that they're particularly afraid to give us decisions. Look at the ridiculous backlash to that Fernandes goal vs City. Couldn't put a football channel on without them pounding on about it with saliva dripping through their teeth, eyes wide and red. Had calls at least as bad, if not worse than that, in 80% of the matches since with not a peep.

Look at the penalty you got against us. Seen that happen at least 3 times in every match since against us. No penalties. And when did an opposition player last get sent off against United?

Wider issue, but United are particularly vulnerable.
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Watched sky’s match highlights on YouTube after the game there was no showing of ANY of the penalties we could’ve got. MOTD only showed the handball and not Rashfords.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
Mariner was the onfield ref against palace
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Ah right, well there was a ridiculous late fouled called in that match while we were hanging on with 10 ten men. Sabitzer very cleanly won the ball back and only when Rashford was put through he decided to bring back play.
 
I think referees and VARs have to create a comprehensive document explaining rules, situations and when to do what. And this needs to be followed consistently across Europe. Also, it needs to be made clear whether the decision was correct in the first place or not a "clear and obvious error".

Think Martinez handball vs Sociedad, we were told clearly that if in a block, the ball ricochets of the body to hit the arm, its not a handball. Did they believe it wasn't a clear and obvious error or were they convinced that's a handball? Why the referee persisted with that decision needs to be made clear. Similarly, my understanding of the Casemiro situation was that if a player has studs up but gets the ball, it usually is a yellow. I can understand if that was given as a red and they didn't want to change it. But in this instance, they decided to re-referee the incident.

Somewhere, the application of the law needs to be made clear so we know whether they got it right or not and what led to this thinking. It is easy for us to cry foul because we remember those instances where we were wronged than the other ones. But the principle remains that without transparency, there is bound to be frustration and the refs would always be at the receiving end of it.
 
Nottm Forest have submitted a dossier of evidence to PGMOL regarding refereeing mistakes as part of a complaint about how their matches are being officiated and I think we should do the same, big decisions are going against us in almost every game now so the club need to take some kind of action to find out why this is happening and what can be done about it.
 
It really is every game now we’re getting shafted by some decision or other. Sometimes we score 4 goals and you forget about it like against Betis. Sometimes you drop points because of it like yesterday. But it’s every week at this point, and Ten Hag needs to call it out.

Longer term I hope they remove VAR altogether and change the handball rule back to what it used to be. It kills the game for fans in the ground, and there’s no point having it if you can’t even use it to get the decisions right anyway. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze so feck it off.
 
redshaw said:
Ah right, well there was a ridiculous late fouled called in that match while we were hanging on with 10 ten men. Sabitzer very cleanly won the ball back and only when Rashford was put through he decided to bring back play.
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Another great example of how fecked over we’ve been from on field referees alone
 
redshaw said:
Ah right, well there was a ridiculous late fouled called in that match while we were hanging on with 10 ten men. Sabitzer very cleanly won the ball back and only when Rashford was put through he decided to bring back play.
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feck I remember that one. Absolutely nothing there, not even any appeals from Palace, and still he gives it. Infuriating.
 
redshaw said:
Ah right, well there was a ridiculous late fouled called in that match while we were hanging on with 10 ten men. Sabitzer very cleanly won the ball back and only when Rashford was put through he decided to bring back play.
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Yeah I totally agree with you about him being shit, that was a shocker with the sabitzer incident, at the time I thought he blew up just because he couldn’t keep up with the play and didn’t want to run that far and fast so late in the game.

was just pointing out it’s not just mariner slowing down and showing selected videos when on var to show the worst possible angle.
 
PL refereeing is just shit, there's no conspiracy against any particular team, its just inconsistency and incompetence because the governance of refereeing is terrible. Every fan base can see a million examples of bad calls going against them.

Arsenal lost two points against Brentford because the VAR referee literally forgot to draw the line on a blatantly offside goal. We spend more time in the opposing box than any other side except maybe City and do more dribbles than any other side and yet we've been awarded only two penalties all year.

Everybody can complain about the referees.
 
cyberman said:
Literally the last angle shows it hitting the Southampton defenders arm first. It’s like I’m being gaslighted
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I think the important part of that incident is his fall, he clearly moves himslef into the path of the ball, putting his arm, coincidentally, right in front of the ball.
 
Flying high said:
I think the important part of that incident is his fall, he clearly moves himslef into the path of the ball, putting his arm, coincidentally, right in front of the ball.
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And he’s not really falling would be my argument. He’s dropping down for the ball for some reason out of his own free will. It isn’t a byproduct of falling but the purpose of it.
it’s just so absurd
 
stevoc said:
Andy Carroll wasn't it? But only after he'd put Eriksen out for the season with a far more reckless tackle than Caemiro's yesterday that he didn't even get booked for.
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And that was by a second yellow? He should have seen a straight red and was more or less explicitly asking the ref numerous times for booking. It bacame too blatant even for the refs to ignore after a while, although they did a very good job of trying to ignore it.
 
redshaw said:
Ah right, well there was a ridiculous late fouled called in that match while we were hanging on with 10 ten men. Sabitzer very cleanly won the ball back and only when Rashford was put through he decided to bring back play.
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Yep that one was ludicrous. I understand the Refs themselves not wanting to do interviews but the Refs should have a spokesman that can come on and explain their strange decisions after matches. It might make them a bit more reluctant to make baffling decisions like that.
 
Rossa said:
And that was by a second yellow? He should have seen a straight red and was more or less explicitly asking the ref numerous times for booking. It bacame too blatant even for the refs to ignore after a while, although they did a very good job of trying to ignore it.
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Yep it was two yellows, before that he should have had one and arguably two straight reds.
 
Rossa said:
What sbout KWP’s tackle on Garnacho. He took the ball, but he followed through with his other leg creating a scissor tackle. Should have been looked at the very least.
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Its a good point - and this is coming from someone that didn’t think Garnachos was a penalty.

They need to be consistent - Cas gets the ball and follows through and catches the guy- it’s a red. KWP gets the ball, scissors and injures Garnacho - not even a foul. Both get the ball but can potentially injure players - one is a red and the other isn’t even a foul.
 
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