VAR and Refs | General Discussion

One Night Only

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Well a game in the FA Cup could have done with VAR, keeper just booted the striker as last man, but outside the box. Ref gave a penalty and only a yellow card, should have been red and a free kick.
 

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Well a game in the FA Cup could have done with VAR, keeper just booted the striker as last man, but outside the box. Ref gave a penalty and only a yellow card, should have been red and a free kick.
One of those weird situations where Charlton are probably happy they got it wrong/ to concede a pen
 

NotChatGPT

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It's difficult not to laugh at Webb:

Speaking on Match Officials Mic'd Up, a Premier League Productions programme which analyses VAR decisions from the last months, Webb admitted there had been an error and revealed video officials are now being urged to challenge on-field referees for more detailed reasoning when a decision is debatable.

"VAR shouldn't re-referee the game and be reserved for clear situations when errors occur on the field. In this situation we see Hwang does not play the ball, it is played on to him by Schar and then there is contact between the players," said Webb, head of Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL), the group that officiates all Premier League matches.

"But what the referee has seen in real time is Hwang bring that leg through and make contact with Schar. If we see the replay, Hwang pulls his swing back a little bit, Schar brings his foot through and there's contact.

"We feel this reaches the threshold for it being a clear and obvious error, even though there is contact.
 

Pughnichi

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Stop watching Mic’d up…it just feeds the importance of Webb and his officials.

webb is fully committed to var so he’s gonna defend it to the end.

VAR is killing football though. Almost every goal seemingly has a check for something. It’s laughable. And ruining the joy of celebrating goals.

imo the only way var can work is if they give managers 1…maybe 2 challenges per game. Throw down a flag in the technical area like American football to show they want a review. This constant review has to stop.

the Haaland goal v Chelsea was crazy. Checking for handball as he slid over the line. Hearing on audio if it grazed his left elbow. It feels (to me at least) that rather than trying to assist making correct decisions (its intention) they’re instead looking to find reasons not to give goals.

i Still think it could be a useful tool but where we are with it currently, it’s a shambles
 

Anustart89

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Stop watching Mic’d up…it just feeds the importance of Webb and his officials.

webb is fully committed to var so he’s gonna defend it to the end.

VAR is killing football though. Almost every goal seemingly has a check for something. It’s laughable. And ruining the joy of celebrating goals.

imo the only way var can work is if they give managers 1…maybe 2 challenges per game. Throw down a flag in the technical area like American football to show they want a review. This constant review has to stop.

the Haaland goal v Chelsea was crazy. Checking for handball as he slid over the line. Hearing on audio if it grazed his left elbow. It feels (to me at least) that rather than trying to assist making correct decisions (its intention) they’re instead looking to find reasons not to give goals.

i Still think it could be a useful tool but where we are with it currently, it’s a shambles
Yup, we really need to take the matter of whether to intervene out of the hands of the referees as that introduces another source of bias (like when one referee once in a game decides to call a shirt tug, only for it to never happen again in the history of the game) on top of the referees clearly not calling things as they see them because VAR is there to bail them out (but rarely does). And because they don’t want to undermine the main ref they’ve introduced this clear and obvious threshold that adds another layer of subjectivity as to what is clear and obvious.

And it’s not just the decisions themselves in terms of the laws of the game. We have one ex-referee on record stating he didn’t recommend a review because he didn’t want to cause the ref more bother as it’d been a messy game.

Let the managers or team captain challenge a call if they feel the ref’s made an error that they feel is unfair. That forces the same ref that made the original call out to the monitor where a video technician shows the incident again, and if he changes his decision based on the video then the challenge remains. If a team wants to waste a challenge on a throw-in and the challenge fails then they can have no complaints when the opposition scores a hand of god goal in the 95th minute that is missed by the referee.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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automated offside flag, pitch level camera for out of bound situation/goal line, tennis style challenges, ref and VAR mic'd up and broadcast their discussion in real time to the stadium, no more slomo/freeze frame, just different angles in real time.
 

Withnail

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It's difficult not to laugh at Webb:

Speaking on Match Officials Mic'd Up, a Premier League Productions programme which analyses VAR decisions from the last months, Webb admitted there had been an error and revealed video officials are now being urged to challenge on-field referees for more detailed reasoning when a decision is debatable.

"VAR shouldn't re-referee the game and be reserved for clear situations when errors occur on the field. In this situation we see Hwang does not play the ball, it is played on to him by Schar and then there is contact between the players," said Webb, head of Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL), the group that officiates all Premier League matches.

"But what the referee has seen in real time is Hwang bring that leg through and make contact with Schar. If we see the replay, Hwang pulls his swing back a little bit, Schar brings his foot through and there's contact.

"We feel this reaches the threshold for it being a clear and obvious error, even though there is contact.
Why is that funny?
 

stevoc

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automated offside flag, pitch level camera for out of bound situation/goal line, tennis style challenges, ref and VAR mic'd up and broadcast their discussion in real time to the stadium, no more slomo/freeze frame, just different angles in real time.
Yeah why they don't have a series of cameras or a camera on a rail to judge offsides is baffling. They don't even have the offside technology they had at the World Cup and in the CL for offsides.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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Yeah why they don't have a series of cameras or a camera on a rail to judge offsides is baffling. They don't even have the offside technology they had at the World Cup and in the CL for offsides.
The clubs voted against it iirc.

I guess one of the drawbacks of challenges is unlike Tennis, it can be used to game manage, especially in critical moments, but it’s still better than the clusterfeck at the moment when they choose what and what not to review arbitrarily. One challenge for each half and another for extra time should suffice, and play should run its course before a challenge can be made.
 

Anustart89

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The clubs voted against it iirc.

I guess one of the drawbacks of challenges is unlike Tennis, it can be used to game manage, especially in critical moments, but it’s still better than the clusterfeck at the moment when they choose what and what not to review arbitrarily. One challenge for each half and another for extra time should suffice, and play should run its course before a challenge can be made.
The argument makes no sense anyway. If a team challenges a throw-in that takes 30 seconds to resolve, how's that more "time management" than some twat at Stockley Park taking five minutes multiple times per game, to decide not whether it's a foul, but if the non-calling of a foul is a clear and obvious error or only a clear error, or if the ball was almost prevented from going in the net by Haaland's elbow, at which point the goal would've been disallowed.
 

Fitchett

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That's fecking nuts
That's absolutely scandalous. But then, David Elleray always was a cnut. He really had it in for Roy Keane and Dennis Irwin, sending them off for ridiculous infringements. I suppose the upper class Harrow School House Master looked down on the Irish.
 

Sandikan

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Yes, that's exactly what happened. One of the worst calls ever.
It looks ludicrous to us, but at the time they weren't as hot on phases of play, or allowing stuff to develop.
So the lino clearly saw a forward pass, and Keane standing offside and gave it on that.
 

NotChatGPT

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Why is that funny?
The situation with Hwang isn't a new scenario, what we've more or less always seen with VAR is that if the ref blows for a penalty, VAR won't overturn it, no matter how minimal the contact is, unless the replays show there's no contact between the players. Essentially you'd have a situation where if the ref blows for a penalty it won't be overturned by VAR, and if the ref doesn't award a penalty then VAR won't recommend him to look at it either, and we've had plenty of those over the years VAR has been in use.

So when Webb states the following:
In this situation we see Hwang does not play the ball, it is played on to him by Schar and then there is contact between the players,"

It should be fairly clear that with the current threshold for clear and obvious, there is no way the decision for a penalty should be overturned. Just like the vast amounts of other similar situations.

However, Webb now introduces a completely different interpretation. It's not a clear and obvious fault based on what VAR sees on the screen, it's a clear and obvious fault because of what the referee thinks he saw on the pitch and what the VAR sees on the replay.

Everything on the pitch happens quickly and you make split second decisions based on your instant interpretation, so you will always have situations where you interpreted it differently from what actually happened, yet there is contact that means your decision won't be overturned as it's subjective if it's a foul or not, not re-refereeing matches yada yada.

Webb's solution:
Officials are now being urged to challenge on-field referees for more detailed reasoning when a decision is debatable.
But decisions have been debatable for quite some time, we're always back to clear and obvious and not re-refereeing matches based on replays, to the point where goals have been allowed/disallowed randomly with fouls in the build up, because the referee has seen the situation and it's a subjective decision on the pitch if it's enough to make it a freekick or if that's what the referee is accepting as normal contact. When Arsenal had a goal disallowed against us due to VAR intervening over a foul in the build up that the ref looked straight at, it was deemed to be a mistake by VAR due to the thresholds for clear and obvious. It didn't matter that it was a blatantly obvious freekick due to Eriksen being fouled to get a touch on the ball, the only thing that apparently mattered was that the referee had seen it and decided to allow it. Yet now, with the Hwang penalty, the subjective stuff suddenly gets a new layer of subjectivity but only in special cases which are again subjective, why?

Why is the Hwang penalty any different from say the disallowed Maguire header against Burnley in jan 21, which got disallowed by Friend for Maguire essentially timing his header perfectly on the back post, with the defender mistiming his. Compare that to the Newcastle goal against Arsenal.

Reality is that subjective decisions aren’t that subjective. Subjectivity becomes an excuse in relation to clear and obvious, VAR avoiding to get involved. Subjectivity is simply what the referee has seen. Stick 100 referees in a room and show them videos of fouls, red card situations, penalty situations, and you will see a lot more consistency than you’re seeing with a referee on the pitch making split second decisions and VAR having to decide if it’s within the thresholds or not.

The solution isn't to add another layer of subjectivity, like Webb is suggesting, which will only lead to even less consistency excused by "subjectivity". He is trying to fix a specific problem with a solution that created the problem in the first place. The only solution that makes sense is to have a proper method that all referees follow, where one of the key initial questions should always be "What did you see". It should be as standard as having methods in place to verify what the actual decision on the pitch is, but it took a massive feck up in order for them to see the need for that.
 

Longshanks

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Yup, we really need to take the matter of whether to intervene out of the hands of the referees as that introduces another source of bias (like when one referee once in a game decides to call a shirt tug, only for it to never happen again in the history of the game) on top of the referees clearly not calling things as they see them because VAR is there to bail them out (but rarely does). And because they don’t want to undermine the main ref they’ve introduced this clear and obvious threshold that adds another layer of subjectivity as to what is clear and obvious.

And it’s not just the decisions themselves in terms of the laws of the game. We have one ex-referee on record stating he didn’t recommend a review because he didn’t want to cause the ref more bother as it’d been a messy game.

Let the managers or team captain challenge a call if they feel the ref’s made an error that they feel is unfair. That forces the same ref that made the original call out to the monitor where a video technician shows the incident again, and if he changes his decision based on the video then the challenge remains. If a team wants to waste a challenge on a throw-in and the challenge fails then they can have no complaints when the opposition scores a hand of god goal in the 95th minute that is missed by the referee.
I think rather than just call the ref over because they are more than likely going to side with themselves unless it's an absolute howler. It should go to two separate VAR who are disconnected from the game don't know the score, don't know what the onfield refs decision is and just give an compleatly unbiased decision. If they both decide differently to onfield ref, decision overturned review retained. If it's a split decision onfield decision stands but the review is retained. If they all agree onfield decision stands and the review is lost.
 

Anustart89

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I think rather than just call the ref over because they are more than likely going to side with themselves unless it's an absolute howler. It should go to two separate VAR who are disconnected from the game don't know the score, don't know what the onfield refs decision is and just give an compleatly unbiased decision. If they both decide differently to onfield ref, decision overturned review retained. If it's a split decision onfield decision stands but the review is retained. If they all agree onfield decision stands and the review is lost.
I don't trust the "separate VARs" to give an unbiased decision from an office building. It would be impossible to blind them to all context involved in the situation since they'll see the players, which goalkeeper's in which box, and some of the referees are paid by the UAE to ref over there as a side gig and nobody's making a fuss about that in the media, despite one of those referees massively favouring the UAE owned team on separate occations over the past months.

I do however trust the referee's potential feeling of embarrassment (and risk of being demoted) if he's standing in front of 40,000+ people and deliberately sticking with a poor on-field call despite getting the chance to review the situation on a video. Acknowledging that their job is hard would obviously be the first step, and at the end of the day, you'd think that most referee would be interested in making the "more correct call" most of the time.
 
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Longshanks

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I don't trust the "separate VARs" to give an unbiased decision from an office building. It would be impossible to blind them to all context involved in the situation since they'll see the players, which goalkeeper's in which box, and some of the referees are paid by the UAE to ref over there as a side gig and nobody's making a fuss about that in the media, despite one of those referees massively favouring the UAE owned team on separate occations over the past months.

I do however trust the referee's potential feeling of embarrassment (and risk of being demoted) if he's standing in front of 40,000+ people and deliberately sticking with a poor on-field call despite getting the chance to review the situation on a video. Acknowledging that their job is hard would obviously be the first step, and at the end of the day, you'd think that most referee would be interested in making the "more correct call" most of the time.
They will stick with a poor on-field call and know that they will get backup from there peers. Can't do much if certain refs have a bias towards certain teams because they have essentially been bought that is a much wider issue that can't be solved by altering VAR whatever you do.

But the hope with a system where the VAR doesn't know the onfield decision or who is calling for the review that they won't naturally have a bias towards there mate In the middle and back them up with a poor call, which is basically what we are seeing now. Because they wouldn't know what the on field ref has decided so they couldn't naturally side with them. Taken that bias away, you may also be able to gather data and evidence of certain refs showing bias towards certain teams since they couldn't hide behind clear and obvious.

No system is perfect, there will always be some controversy and the team on the wrong end of tight decsisons will always be unhappy whatever you do.
 

Floyd

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It looks ludicrous to us, but at the time they weren't as hot on phases of play, or allowing stuff to develop.
So the lino clearly saw a forward pass, and Keane standing offside and gave it on that.
I saw that match on TV and thought it was outrageous. The commentators as well.
 

El Zoido

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Feck it yeah, that was it.

10 mins. Most bizarre offside call ever.

Bizarre. From the perspective of the linesman at pitch level, Giggs playing it through to himself may have looked like he was playing it through to Yorke, who was in an offside position. Why the flag stayed up after it was clear Giggs is collecting it, I’ve no idea.
 

marktan

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Was wondering if there's anyone or a website keeping track of all the decisions that benefited City so far this season? Given they've had a fair few going for them this season and with rivals have had a few going against them, and given that Abhi Dhabi is paying the refs to ref there, probably a good idea to keep track of them now there's a clear reason for bias to exist.

- Liverpool Diaz offside goal obviously
- United - City bogus penalty for the pull by Hojlund
- Arsenal - Newcastle Gumaraes not sent off for the elbow

Probably quite a few more? A bit conspiracy theorist but given the refs are getting paid by Abu Dhabi, City's charges, Barca paying Negreira and Saudi buying a world cup, probably not outside the reason of possibility..
 
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Nickelodeon

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I saw the WSL game yesterday. It was a long time since I’ve seen a game with no VAR. And one of the VAR related things that stuck with me the most is the lack of attention you would devote to a decision. For those who don’t know, United had a goal ruled out when the ball was adjudged to have been out similar to the Rashford vs Brighton or the recent Arsenal-Newcastle one. The assistant ref gave the decision and that was it, even if it could’ve gone our way. I think the entire process of scrutinising a decision in detail by the VAR and 3-4 mins that follow makes fans believe that their team deserves the decision especially in narrow and subjective cases.

I’m one of those who argues that VAR should be removed for the betterment of the game. Watching the game yesterday made me realise the joy of not having to

  1. Wonder if the attacking play is offside so cheering the team wouldn’t even matter
  2. Watch a phase of play which I know is already offside
  3. Wonder if that will goal stands(even if more were for City)
  4. Worry for arbitrary VAR checks just because a player is down injured

I know VAR probably gets more right than wrong but watching any average match of football without VAR and it’s apparent to see that refereeing decisions are given such little mental space. And that’s how it should be.
 

Heinzesight

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That (non) foul on Allison was over ruled every single time on De Gea and goals were given
The one where Lindelof a couple of years ago (Fulham away was it?) was basically was climbed on with an eye gouge thrown in for good measure…yet this one is disallowed! Beggars belief!
 

El Zoido

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Liverpool get one dodgy decision go against them every 3-4 years and lose their minds over it, then they get constant soft decisions go their way.
 

VictoriaRed

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City are the biggest d$$$$ in the league!! Calling for handballs; totally mocking the already shitty VAR!
 

RedRocket9908

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The one where Lindelof a couple of years ago (Fulham away was it?) was basically was climbed on with an eye gouge thrown in for good measure…yet this one is disallowed! Beggars belief!
Wasnt that West Brom, there was also one against Everton at home when DCL used De Geas face as leverage to get up and head the ball in from a corner.
 

Dansk

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It takes a special level of denial and idiocy to deny the self-evident fact that Liverpool enjoy a different, more lenient and favourable interpretation of the rules, one that no other club is afforded. It has been abundantly obvious for some years now. It's just a fact that anyone with eyes can see every week. Once in a while, if a ref forgets it, they get expelled from the fecking league and are made to apologize publicly. How, then, can anyone be surprised?
 
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