VAR - Not the hero we want, the one we need

[bleedred]

They do, but if for example VAR had called Young on Aguero a pen, the league would be over. Tonight is another example, if we don't get the Sterling penalty there is a legitimate chance the game plays out differently and we need 5 or 6 points instead of 3. I don't think they balance out at all tbh. Some seasons everything goes your way, some seasons nothing does, others its 50/50, but there is a huge issue of inconsistency which VAR can go a long way to fixing. The bigger teams nearly always get the rub of the green vs the little ones too.

Ref's do an amazing job getting 95% of decisions or whatever right. VAR increases that, while its not perfect it is a plus. It does need to be tweaked to make decisions faster and better but it still needs to be in the game and league.

You are saying that one decision decides the title, it doesn't. You have had other bad decisions as well over the league and I am pretty sure, I can think of favorable decisions as well, which we as fans tend to ignore convincingly.

I don't think so. I cant think of a team in any of the top leagues which were relegated/ won the championship because of refereeing decisions rather they deserved to be there.

A 5% increase at what cost to the game?.

 

[bleedred]

I would like to see where that 95% number comes from. Not having a go at you, but 95% of what exactly? I mean, it's a pointless stat if they're including throw-ins in that stat, which I'm guessing. When it comes to the big calls I reckon a coin toss between two outcomes isn't much worse than the so called top referees in the country.

For example, tonight there were two big calls in the Spurs-City game, both of which the ref got wrong IMO. The penalty should've been a free kick, which would've meant ten men for Spurs, and the Davies tackle should've been a red.

Multiple sources and studies.
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ing-how-many-decisions-do-officials-get-right

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...tatistics-behind-worldwide-use-show-positives

 

[Anustart89]

Multiple sources and studies.
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ing-how-many-decisions-do-officials-get-right

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...tatistics-behind-worldwide-use-show-positives

Cheers!

 

[Rafaeldagold]

You are saying that one decision decides the title, it doesn't. You have had other bad decisions as well over the league and I am pretty sure, I can think of favorable decisions as well, which we as fans tend to ignore convincingly.

I don't think so. I cant think of a team in any of the top leagues which were relegated/ won the championship because of refereeing decisions rather they deserved to be there.

A 5% increase at what cost to the game?.

It’s all about that 5% accuracy!!

Who cares about the cost to the game, or your enjoyment of it? You’re living in the dark ages if you think preserving the free flowing nature & excitement of the most successful sport in the world isn’t worth that 5%.

Viva VAR. The saviour of football which was a hopelessly failing sport with so many terrible ref decisions in a game for every team apparently.

 

[awop]

It’s all about that 5% accuracy!!

Who cares about the cost to the game, or your enjoyment of it? You’re living in the dark ages if you think preserving the free flowing nature & excitement of the most successful sport in the world isn’t worth that 5%.

Viva VAR. The saviour of football which was a hopelessly failing sport with so many terrible ref decisions in a game for every team apparently.

That VAR-less weekend of football got you so excited you forgot to answer the questions we asked you.
What would you do to improve referees ? I also would love better refs but i have honestly no idea how it can be done. Please give us a clue.

 

[LuenerLinguist]

Set pieces, injuries, refs dont giving advantage etc. are all part of the game and all causing the stop of the free flowing nature. At least the latter two could be improved.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

That VAR-less weekend of football got you so excited you forgot to answer the questions we asked you.
What would you do to improve referees ? I also would love better refs but i have honestly no idea how it can be done. Please give us a clue.

There are good refs out there. It’s really not hard to ref a game properly/adequately . Get them from the lower leagues, pay them more I don’t know. The very fact that there are games which don’t need var with refs getting decisions right proves it’s possible

Dean is just a terrible ref and always has been.

Although it must be said I don’t think this ‘necessity for var’ is true. Refs really aren’t that bad-every team feels like they get bad decisions, but this is biased fans were talking about where every 50/50 should be in their teams favour etc.

 

[Anustart89]

There are good refs out there. It’s really not hard to ref a game properly/adequately . Get them from the lower leagues, pay them more I don’t know. The very fact that there are games which don’t need var with refs getting decisions right proves it’s possible

Dean is just a terrible ref and always has been.

Although it must be said I don’t think this ‘necessity for var’ is true. Refs really aren’t that bad-every team feels like they get bad decisions, but this is biased fans were talking about where every 50/50 should be in their teams favour etc.

That's your response, after bleating on about "better refs"?

You reckon that Mike Dean saw the Alonso tackle, felt like "feck this I only make £70k per year, no red!"

So because they get some big decisions right means that they don't need help? A coin toss gets half the big decisions right, you reckon we should put coins in charge? That's save the PL a lot of money.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

That's your response, after bleating on about "better refs"?

You reckon that Mike Dean saw the Alonso tackle, felt like "feck this I only make £70k per year, no red!"

So because they get some big decisions right means that they don't need help? A coin toss gets half the big decisions right, you reckon we should put coins in charge? That's save the PL a lot of money.

What on Earth are you talking about?

1) how is it bleating you want better refs when it’s entirely possible to ref a game correctly. There are good refs out there.

2) No I never said that. If you actually bothered to look I said multiple times Dean is just a terrible ref.

3) Um you’ve kinda lost me with your rambling coin toss thing.

The main point is me and many others don’t believe the trade off of implementing var for a slightly better accuracy rate is worth it.
You do. Enjoy the World Cup with VAR in it-it’ll be a shambles.

At the end of the day the premier league and champions league both agree var isn’t suitable to be In play next season despite your ridicule.

Oh and here’s a question for you. If var is all about improving accuracy in decisions in football then surely in the future it will be used to check every single decision? Throw ins, corners placement, every challenge middle of the park, tussle in the box, every coming together, 50/50 challenge, as we need to up those accuracy numbers right?

 

[Anustart89]

Oh and here’s a question for you. If var is all about improving accuracy in decisions in football then surely in the future it will be used to check every single decision? Throw ins, corners placement, every challenge middle of the park, tussle in the box, every coming together, 50/50 challenge, as we need to up those accuracy numbers right?

If I were to decide, that wouldn't be an issue, because no manager in their right mind would waste a challenge on corner placement.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

If I were to decide, that wouldn't be an issue, because no manager in their right mind would waste a challenge on corner placement.

To be honest with you the challenge system would be the less intrusive version of var if they’re going to force it into the game, it would make a manager even more important by careful challenges.

 

[limerickcitykid]

That's your response, after bleating on about "better refs"?

You reckon that Mike Dean saw the Alonso tackle, felt like "feck this I only make £70k per year, no red!"

So because they get some big decisions right means that they don't need help? A coin toss gets half the big decisions right, you reckon we should put coins in charge? That's save the PL a lot of money.

Mate, you just don't get it. It's simple. Just get better refs.

 

[Oscie]

Works well everywhere else, not sure what our problem is to be honest

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...oh.

 

[Dan]

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[Oscie]

I'll assume fans who missed the goal entirely because they popped out for a half-time pie and piss are bouyant at the accuracy of the decision. High-fiving each other I'd imagine. They'll be in a rush to get home tonight to find out if any more goals are awarded after the final whistle.

 

[Castia]

Just seen that shambles from Germany....get rid of it now it’s got no place in football.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Mate, you just don't get it. It's simple. Just get better refs.

What’s your thoughts on tonight’s Germany game? Do you genuinely think VAR has a place in football?

 

[Sigma]

Works well everywhere else, not sure what our problem is to be honest

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...oh.

What’s your thoughts on tonight’s Germany game? Do you genuinely think VAR has a place in football?

How is this a fault of VAR? The referee should have kept them on the pitch while he viewed it.

 

[do.ob]

Yes, I don't see the big drama either. It's a simple communication problem. If the ref tells people "hold up, there might VAR intervention" then the players stay on the pitch, there is much less confusion and much less time lost. To try and construct some existential VAR crisis out of this is just very very silly. It was a freak incident that occured for the first time and wasn't handled well. Next time people will react better.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

How is this a fault of VAR? The referee should have kept them on the pitch while he viewed it.

VAR creates the opportunity for problems like this to exsist. It’s a farce.

VAR will always be in the hands of another ref (you know those refs that are apparently so terribke we need VAR...)

so these mistakes will keep happening. You’re just substituting poor decisions for poor, farcical ones which also disrupt the game.

 

[Sigma]

VAR creates the opportunity for problems like this to exsist. It’s a farce.

VAR will always be in the hands of another ref (you know those refs that are apparently so terribke we need VAR...)

so these mistakes will keep happening. You’re just substituting poor decisions for poor, farcical ones which also disrupt the game.

People learn from mistakes.

 

[awop]

VAR creates the opportunity for problems like this to exsist. It’s a farce.

VAR will always be in the hands of another ref (you know those refs that are apparently so terribke we need VAR...)

so these mistakes will keep happening. You’re just substituting poor decisions for poor, farcical ones which also disrupt the game.

If i buy you a "Good guy with a gun" tee-shirt, will you wear it ? Because it sounds like you would love it.

That incident in Germany is ridiculous, as do.ob said it's a communication issue from one of the many "good referees".
How long did he take to ask for VAR if the players are already in the dressing room ?
But it's a good thing it happened, the probability of this ever happening again (in Germany at least) just dropped massively.
Not going to hazard a percentage, some people don't like those.

 

[Paxi]

VAR is as bad as this shit..

 

[bleedred]

Surely the pinnacle of video action replay will be achieved when fans don't actually react to goals live in the ground but instead wait until a text message alert on the drive home to let them know which goals were allowed to stand and which ones were ruled out after a thorough review of all the goals and major incidents leading up to them.

Half way there!!!!!

 

[Oscie]

People learn from mistakes.

At what point are we going to accept we need more than 'things will be ironed out' in response to some of what VAR is throwing up?

Every single unsatisfactory anomaly VAR it's always the same. Nothing is addressed, it's just dismissed as 'mistakes happen' or 'it'll work out in the end'. I doubt there's been a high profile trial of any kind in a sporting context where people are have absolutely no interest in the actual trial itself instead insisting that any problems that arise from it should be ignored and getting huffy with people who notice them.

Half way there!!!!!

Oh sure decisions are now made when the players have left the pitch and the fans are outside the ground thinking it's halftime - but anyone who suggests that fans might have left the stadium by the time a decision is made is just scaremongering!!!

..or something. I know: It'll work out in the end and um...something about Paul Scholes in the Porto match from 2004 and erm...Thierry Henry FFS! Etc.

 

[Sigma]

At what point are we going to accept we need more than 'things will be ironed out' in response to some of what VAR is throwing up?

Every single unsatisfactory anomaly VAR it's always the same. Nothing is addressed, it's just dismissed as 'mistakes happen' or 'it'll work out in the end'. I doubt there's been a high profile trial of any kind in a sporting context where people are have absolutely no interest in the actual trial itself instead insisting that any problems that arise from it should be ignored and getting huffy with people who notice them.

The first time VAR was trailed in England was January of this year. Are you seriosuly saying 3 months is long enough to make a considered decision?

 

[Oscie]

It's just the same cycle: VAR throws up something unsatisfactory and the response is to shrug and say that somehow these things will resolve themselves if we do nothing but say 'these things will resolve themselves'. It's incredible that the biggest cheerleaders of VAR never have any explanation or solution to any of the problems beyond assuming they'll probably go away in time.

 

[Spiersey]

I think the current issue with VAR is the random checks that no-one has appealed for. I think it should be reserved for incidents such as Man City's disallowed goal v Pool. A simple check shows that it came off of a Liverpool player and the goal is awarded. it's the nonsense random checks at goals from corners where a referee just checks as there might have been a foul.

Also probably a decent argument for making it to be used only for things that are absolute and not subjective, e.g, was the ball out of play, inside/outside the box and blatant dives.

 

[Sigma]

It's just the same cycle: VAR throws up something unsatisfactory and the response is to shrug and say that somehow these things will resolve themselves if we do nothing but say 'these things will resolve themselves'. It's incredible that the biggest cheerleaders of VAR never have any explanation or solution to any of the problems beyond assuming they'll probably go away in time.

Of course it's not going to get resolved by itself. The governing body are trying to find solutions to the various pitfalls that have been pointed out. This is why a trial is necessary, as in such instances, its very hard to predict a lot of the drawbacks.

Also as the referees get more experienced with the system as well as being properly trained, the process will with out a doubt get more efficient.

 

[Oscie]

Of course it's not going to get resolved by itself. The governing body are trying to find solutions to the various pitfalls that have been pointed out. This is why a trial is necessary, as in such instances, its very hard to predict a lot of the drawbacks.

On the contrary I'd say most of the drawbacks of VAR were the same concerns that many people shared quite openly before its introduction. Quite sure people were wary about every goal being reviewed leading to goals being ruled out for absurd reasons, delays in decisions and fears that outcomes of matches (or in tonight's case, a half of a match) being decided when fans had gone for a pint.

Quite honestly I can't think of single VAR drawback that people wary of VAR didn't raise at the time. Might have been an idea to actually address those concerns rather than dismiss them, wait for them to occur and then claim somehow they were all impossible to predict.

 

[el3mel]

Gets worse with each experiment. I'm dreading WC from now.

 

[do.ob]

At this point you're just repeating the same melodramatic hyperboles over and over again.
Like VAR for whatever reason (i still havent seen a logical notive) being intent on ruling out goals for the fun of it and crying about fans finding about results on their way home because the ref took a minute to indicate the review. When it is documented every step of the way that guidelines aim for the opposite.

 

[Oscie]

At this point you're just repeating the same melodramatic hyperboles over and over again.
Like VAR for whatever reason (i still havent seen a logical notive) being intent on ruling out goals for the fun of it and crying about fans finding about results on their way home because the ref took a minute to indicate the review. When it is documented every step of the way that guidelines aim for the opposite.

Players were in the dressing room and were called back out so a penalty could be taken. This supposedly in a country where, as we're repeatedly told, everyone loves VAR and it works well and is an example to referees in England.

'Melodramatic hyperbole'

 

[do.ob]

Players were in the dressing room and were called back out so a penalty could be taken.

'Melodramatic hyperbole'

Yes, because you act like this is an intended outcome and things will only go further into this direction, when the obvious reality is that this was caused by players and refs being unfamiliar with such a situation. No one will say this was good execution or an intended outcome. Refs will look at this and look for ways to prevent this from happening againg.
Officials basically tell you every chance they get that minimal reaction and execution time is one of the highest priorities, I don't know why that guideline seems so hard to grasp for some people.

 

[Oscie]

Yes, because you act like this is an intended outcome and things will only go further into this direction, when the obvious reality is that this was caused by players and refs being unfamiliar with such a situation. No one will say this was good execution or an intended outcome. Refs will look at this and look for ways to prevent this from happening againg.
Officials basically tell you every chance they get that minimal reaction and execution time is one of the highest priorities, I don't know why that guideline seems so hard to grasp for some people.

So only changes that are intended to make the game shit can be criticised? Something like this which could/should have been easily anticipated and ways drawn up to prevent it is exactly the problem. We're trialling a system at the highest level where few have evidently given two shits about thinking through.

Every single rule change in history has been done with the intention of improving the game, doesn't mean if they turn out to cause problems they can't/shouldn't be criticised.

It's VAR not Jeremy Corbyn, immunity from criticism isn't due. It's about to be used at a World Cup ffs and at the very least supporters are now admitting that not everything has ben fully thought through. Bloody hell.

Honestly, name one issue that you think VAR has thrown up that you think was completely impossible to anticipate. One. Something that someone sat down in a room with a pad charged with thinking of potential problems VAR might cause couldn't come up with in 10 minutes.

 

[do.ob]

So only changes that are intended to make the game shit can be criticised? Something like this which could/should have been easily anticipated and ways drawn up to prevent it is exactly the problem. We're trialling a system at the highest level where few have evidently given two shits about thinking through.

So what now? Scrap VAR because an inconsequential mistake has been made, that 20/20 hindsight told you shouldn't have been dealt with mire clearly in advance?

Differentiating between sloppy execution and systematic problems would be a start. This was clearly the former. Next time players might stay a few seconds longer on the pitch after a critical situation and the ref will signal VAR contact earlier and more clearly and this problem is solved.

 

[Emacii]

According to some sources its not clear if the ref handled this situation correctly. Apparently the rules say he is only able to take actions as long as he is on the field. In the videos it appears as the VAR contacted him after leaving the field so this could lead to a possible protest by Freiburg.

 

[Oscie]

So what now? Scrap VAR because an inconsequential mistake has been made, that 20/20 hindsight told you shouldn't have happened?

Differentiating between sloppy execution and systematic problems would be a start. This was clearly the former. Next time players might stay a few seconds longer on the pitch after a critical situation and the ref will signal VAR contact earlier and more clearly and this problem is solved.

How about thinking through VAR is rather than introducing it to top level football and then having a policy of: shrug and assume things will probably iron themselves out? The whole thing was rushed before people it was even thought through. Countless problems that could have easily been anticipated had there actually not been a rush to use it and for football to show off its new toy. There hasn't been a single VAR-related incident that could not have been predicted. The fact the system has been introduced before anyone thought to address those issues is a disgrace.

Now we've got a system that's being used at the top level of the game, at the World Cup no less, which people who actually charged with using it still aren't sure how it's supposed to be used. It's not hysterical to think this situation is absolutely fecking ridiculous.

 

[do.ob]

How about thinking through VAR is rather than introducing it to top level football and then having a policy of: shrug and assume things will probably iron themselves out? The whole thing was rushed before people it was even thought through. Countless problems that could have easily been anticipated had there actually not been a rush to use it and for football to show off its new toy. There hasn't been a single VAR-related incident that could not have been predicted. The fact the system has been introduced before anyone thought to address those issues is a disgrace.

Now we've got a system that's being used at the top level of the game, at the World Cup no less, which people who actually charged with using it still aren't sure how it's supposed to be used. It's not hysterical to think this situation is absolutely fecking ridiculous.

You're literally talking about the ref taking a couple of seconds too long to inform players in this case. I think it's naive to think that you can just rule out these things happening, no matter the preparation, because in the end you still have humans who have to learn learn and a fast to lots if new rules and regulations in a high pressure environment

 

[Oscie]

You're literally talking about the ref taking a couple of seconds too long to inform players in this case.

Players left the pitch. Were in the dressing room. Were called out again.

I'm literally not literally talking about a couple of seconds delay. That takes more than a couple of seconds. Huge issues like this get dismissed as a 'couple seconds delay'.


EDIT: According to the BBC the delay was six minutes. But if you're not being melodramatic and hyperbolic you'd probably round that down to a couple of seconds, sure