Re. Van Dijk, he's just not on another level compared to the other names in this thread. As good, sure, but some of the above is hyperbolic and probably influenced by recency bias.
Vidic, Terry, Rio, Stam, Van Dijk
- Thread starter The holy trinity 68
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Even when in his best season, Vidic stats are far superior. How can you argue against that really?
As for his level being up there with the likes of Baresi and Scirea
Terry was bossing the PL in his mid 30s alongside Cahill, it is to be expected on a Utd board but Terry is underrated. There's a good shout for him to be best ever defender in PL. Van Dijk has had the highest peak, he came 2nd in the Ballon d'Or ffs, and only lost by 5 points. He lacks in longevity to be put at the top but 2 more season and he can be put up there.
I always preferred Vidic over Rio, so my Top 2 would be Terry and Vidic.
I always preferred Vidic over Rio, so my Top 2 would be Terry and Vidic.
VVD was genuinely good enough to deserve the balon d'or over Messi and Cristiano. He was the best player on a team that won CL and PL back-to-backEven when in his best season, Vidic stats are far superior. How can you argue against that really?
As for his level being up there with the likes of Baresi and Scirea
Vidic won the PL and CL double. And was the main reason United broke the PL clean sheets in a row record that still stands 12 years later. United only conceded 25 goals in the league that season. His stats also back up that he was much better than VVD in his best season.
But forget all of that. Saying he was the same level as Baresi or Scirea is baffling. I mean for your reasoning, why not include Cannavaro in there with Baresi and Scirea as he actually did win the Ballon D'or.
Aye but you've changed your tune now. Before you said he was easily the best or something to that effect. Now you're saying he's just as good. I wouldn't have quoted you if it hadn't been for the hyperbole
Aye, maybe I exaggerated a wee bit, he always gets unfairly overlooked when people start going on about the best PL defenders. The guy was top class.
May I ask the source for your stats? Some of the numbers seem off for both Vidic (08-09) and VVD (19-20) on their PL stats page.
I wouldn't include stats like cleansheets, goals conceded, penalties conceded and own goals unless I was sure the said player was chiefly culpable for those values.
Changing some of your numbers based on the PL website:
| Stat | Vidic | VVD |
| Tackles | 62 | 23 |
| Tackles Won | 12 | 12 |
| Last man tackles | 4 | 2 |
| Blocked shots | 6 | 5 |
| Interceptions | 71 | 40 |
| Clearances | 360 | 162 |
| Headed clearances | 123 | 83 |
Adding other stats which seem to be relevant to me:
| Stat | Vidic | VVD |
| Recoveries | 170 | 220 |
| Duels Won | 226 | 239 |
| Duels Lost | 90 | 81 |
| Successful 50/50 | 4 | 3 |
| Errors leading to goal | 1 | 1 |
| Yellow cards | 4 | 1 |
| Red cards | 2 | 0 |
| Fouls | 39 | 16 |
| Offsides | 0 | 1 |
| Goals | 4 | 5 |
| Headed goals | 2 | 5 |
| Assists | 1 | 1 |
| Passes | 1676 | 3259 |
| Passes/match | 49.29 | 85.76 |
| Big chances created | 0 | 2 |
| Through balls | 1 | 7 |
| Accurate long balls | 151 | 205 |
Looking at the overall picture for just those single seasons, Vidic seems to be better at tackling, interceptions, and clearances. VVD is better at recoveries, duels, passing, chance creation and an important pool player for attacking and defending set pieces.
It feels like you're comparing apples to oranges with these two. Vidic didn't have to do a lot of the passing and attacking plays for his team, while the way Pool play VVD mostly finds himself recovering balls as the last defender instead of playing close to his penalty box.
I also think that you should always compare stats across multiple seasons and ideally across different teams. Difficult to do that in this case since VVD has played almost 50 fewer matches than Vidic.
Can't we say the same about Vidic? That every non-United fan doesn't see him as the best defender in the PL history?
Loads of non-Chelsea fans think Terry is the best defender in PL history. Not on here though, that's obvious and understandable, but it can also be a bit of an echo chamber here when it comes to this question.
I find the clean sheat comparison very weak argemunt. Vidic had Rio next to him and Van Dijk Matip. For most non-United fans, Van Dijk will be the player who has reached a higher level than Vidic.
As impressive as these statistics are for Vidic in demonstrating how robustly he dealt with more direct duels, they miss the context that defending has changed over the last decade. Centre-halves today deal with fewer long balls and fewer crosses because more attacks are built up on the ground. On the whole, players make around 30% fewer crosses and tackles. For example, in 2008/09 Mascherano made 178 tackles, yet by 2020/21 the league leader Ayling made just 108. Most centre-halves from today will not have the same opportunity to rack up the same numbers from long balls and crosses as the guys in the 2000s.
I'd also add that these figures reflect the type of defender rather than their quality per se. For example if we take Ferdinand's impeccable 2007/08 campaign, he trailed Vidic significantly in each of these measures - 132 headed clearances to 203, 48 aerial battles won to 118, 57 tackles won to 72. Now Vidic had a great campaign, but Rio's positioning and reading of the game was off the charts. To take a more clearcut comparison, I'm sure Franco Baresi's tackles and headers were lower than Costacurta's, but nobody would ever suggest that Franco was the weaker of the pair. Point being the more natural stopper in any partnership will always generate higher numbers.
That's either nostalgia or bias from the fact that he was a regular in the England team, and most people tend to find Rio annoying.
People don't find Terry annoying? It's hardly an insult to Rio to think Terry was better than him.
Cannavaro won it in a world cup year. And he was incredible in that world cup, to be fair
Vidic, Terry, Rio, Stam, Adams, Campbell is good list with Van Dijk for future. Ranking is difficult - needs a lot of stats and can go to individual preference.
we are talking about the best out of the best.
we are talking about the best out of the best.
Vidic had Evans next to him in that record breaking run, Rio was injured.
Neither do most Utd fans either though. But Rio would certainly be the choice ahead of Terry for even non-utd fans.
1. Rio Ferdinand - The best Centre-back of his generationformostpartofadecade. Brilliant defender and silky on the ball.
2. Terry - Top defender and leader from the back.
3. Vidic - Aggressive on the floor and in the air. Dominant centre-half.
4. Van Dijk - The best of this era. Great all round
5. Stam - Strong and explosive. Top man-marker.
2. Terry - Top defender and leader from the back.
3. Vidic - Aggressive on the floor and in the air. Dominant centre-half.
4. Van Dijk - The best of this era. Great all round
5. Stam - Strong and explosive. Top man-marker.
I know this is not the best place for a post like this but I think VVD deserves a lot of credit for standing out in this era.
Due to the evolution of how teams defend and how better tactically even the lesser opposition are it is a lot harder to stand out now as a CB. As great as the Arsenal, United and Chelsea defenses of yesteryear were all had an incredible base around them and granted VVD has Alison and Fabinho but he doesn't have anywhere near the same cover from the fullbacks bombing forward and Klopp plays a much higher line than those teams did.
Better or not is subjective but he firmly deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as those mentioned, in my opinion.
Due to the evolution of how teams defend and how better tactically even the lesser opposition are it is a lot harder to stand out now as a CB. As great as the Arsenal, United and Chelsea defenses of yesteryear were all had an incredible base around them and granted VVD has Alison and Fabinho but he doesn't have anywhere near the same cover from the fullbacks bombing forward and Klopp plays a much higher line than those teams did.
Better or not is subjective but he firmly deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as those mentioned, in my opinion.
A CB with Joe Hart behind him, paired with Lescott/K. Toure/Demichelis/Otamendi
I think it's a lot easier to stand out as a defender at this time compared to the era the others were in. The fact he went for so much money was as much as anything due to the fact that there is a massive shortage of top class defenders.
The standard of defender across the continent has dropped massively since the days of Vidic, Terry, Rio and Stam. Rio was saying just recently that they don't even seem to coach defenders to defend crosses or drill them to the level they did back then.
I'm not saying VVD isn't a world class defender, I think he is, but he would have been one of many back then. imo.
I think the CB role has changed much since the days of Vidic and co. It is much more demanding these days since teams press higher and the CBs are exposed when the opponent breaks through. Also, the build up play is much more important.
Thus it is very hard to compare. But I haven't seen a CB being as much ahead of the other contendors as van Dijk, although I'm not even sure his peak is better than the peak of other great CBs of the last 10 years: Ramos, Boateng, Thiago Silva, Piqué, Hummels, etc. But one or two years ago, van Dijk stood out in a way Vidic, Ferdinand and co. never did.
Thus it is very hard to compare. But I haven't seen a CB being as much ahead of the other contendors as van Dijk, although I'm not even sure his peak is better than the peak of other great CBs of the last 10 years: Ramos, Boateng, Thiago Silva, Piqué, Hummels, etc. But one or two years ago, van Dijk stood out in a way Vidic, Ferdinand and co. never did.
I didn't know people use the term back to back with different trophies. We must have so many trophies back to back to back to back.
And he isn't best CB ever peak or otherwise and definitely didnt deserve the award over Messi who rightfully received it. A deserving candidate would have won opinions over as Modric managed to. He also got spanked in the first leg and needed Dembele(1st leg), his midfield and attack (2nd lag) to bail him out on the CL run.
Stylewise, VVD is closest to Ferdinand among the comparisons. But VVD is basically a faster, taller, stronger and more skilful version of Ferdinand. What Ferdinand had is longevity.
The only one who can match him on pure qualities was Stam. But even here, I'd say VVD has him beat on leadership and skill on the ball.
The only one who can match him on pure qualities was Stam. But even here, I'd say VVD has him beat on leadership and skill on the ball.
One can also use this claim against Terry when playing uber-defensive tactics under Mourinho and also having Carvalho next to and Makelele in front of.
Rio's 07/08 was better. It got somewhat overlooked because it was the first season that Ronaldo went superhuman and that obviously got all the attention, but Rio at the other end of the pitch was pretty much just as good. I personally rate it as one of the top two individual season any defender has had in the last two decades alongside Nesta in 02/03 (I might be a season off there). Not sure which I'd rate higher, but they are the top two for me.
I do think VVD's 18/19 is the second best in the PL era though.
Rio was clearly not the same after the back injury he suffered just after he'd had that incredible 07/08 season. From 08/09 Vidic had overtaken him and was definitely the more important, but many (most?) feel that Rio's peak season or two was higher than Vidic ever reached over the course of an entire season. Vidic had half a season where he reached that level (hell, I'd say he was even better), but he didn't maintain it for the entire season.
I'll over praise most United players as much as the next man and liked Steve Bruce but he was nowhere near the defenders in the op title.
He was also nowhere near McGrath
and I think he only played with him for two seasons (and even then, it'd be one and a half as McGrath missed a lot of his last season with us... before going to Villa and playing like the god he was/winning POTY).Should have been capped mind
People use back to back with different trophies because they never win the same trophy back to back.
Some sad clubs even parade two trophies they won in two different seasons, the same time.
After Cantona, Vidic is my favorite United player. I am biased....
And it's a good argument. I can't put Terry in there with the others because he was s world class in a specific setup. His vulnerability on the turn and playing a high line is something most of the others mentioned didn't have. He benefited a great deal from sitting deep and having the world's best recovering defender at the time next to him (Carvalho) when pushed up.
In the setup that suited him, there were none better. But he couldn't do what Ferdinand, Stam or Van Dijk could in a high line. He needed bodies around him, whilst those three were often charged to mop up on their own against attackers breaking.
Not bad, 2 right assessments out of 4!
Sad indeed.
Anyway, if we are just looking at a single season peak, and categorizing by tiers, Rio is the only defender with enough separation from the likes of Terry, Vidic, Stam and VVD. I can't separate the other 4. The likes of Campbell, Kompany, Dias, Carvalho are in a tier below.
Longevity: Vidic, Terry, Rio, Kompany, Campbell, Stam, VVD... In that order, IMO
Longevity: Vidic, Terry, Rio, Kompany, Campbell, Stam, VVD... In that order, IMO
Bramble not getting a mention?
https://www.sportbible.com/football...-better-than-both-van-dijk-and-vidic-20190611
https://www.sportbible.com/football...-better-than-both-van-dijk-and-vidic-20190611
Or that Liverpool team was just vastly superior to the United team? Reading the stats there's really no other conclusion to come to.
You're assuming because Vidic had to do more defending that he must be the better defender.
Vidic was better.
Was lucky enough to see Stam many times live at OT and he was incredible, he was so good at times that the CB partner was irrelevant.
If we're purely talking peak level then Van Dijk is in the top tier you'd have to say. When talking about the Premier League's best ever CB however I think you have to bring longevity into the conversation.
When you consider both his peak performance and his longevity I think you'd have to say Rio is the best CB this league has seen with Terry a close second.
When you consider both his peak performance and his longevity I think you'd have to say Rio is the best CB this league has seen with Terry a close second.