In fairness Kompany had been running a one man defence. Those defenders were part of great units, Kompany wasn't. He's been a brilliant defender, one of the very best the league has seen.
Virgil van Dijk | Performances
- Thread starter Samid
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Cantona was awesome, but the guy flying kicked someone in the stands, he's a fecking nutter
Though I do also see your point ofcourse. Especially since winning this game or even drawing it, would have given them a huge title shot.
So let me get this straight, based on your logic the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Xavi, Iniesta, Scholes, Piro, Giggs.....(well basically all the greats of football) aren't as great as everyone claims them to be because they didn't play in a team like pool. I mean, really?
We're talking about central defenders here, so why are you bringing in attackers & midfielders into the debate ? But let me indulge you by saying that Phil Neville won a lot more major trophies than Steven Gerrard, so does that make him a better player ? Of course it doesn't. John Terry had been something of a regular for Chelsea for nearly 4 years before they eventually won the league. & that was only after Roman had splashed the cash for some top class talent. So let me ask you this hypothetical question: Do you think Terry, Vidic, or Kompany, would have had a more positive impact on Liverpool than VVD has had ?
Well Djimi Traore has a Champions League winnners medal, so that makes him a better player than those who don't. Isn't that how it works on here ?
What is to suggest they couldn't? This is such a ludicrous argument. Vidic made likes of Jonny Evans look like a world beater, we went 13 games or something ludicrous without conceding a goal in PL with Evans as his partner. van Dijk has been good for you but Liverpool fans and few on here are really getting carried away.
Likes of Rio, Terry, Vidic, Kompany are some of the best defenders this league has ever seen. van Dijk needs to do a hell lot more to warrant being put in same bracket.
So what strengths & attributes have those 3 players got, that - in your opinion - VVD doesn't ? What makes them better players ?
That isn't his point. It's to do with the length of time he's been performing at this level, compared to the length of time other defenders were performing at a similar - and yes, arguably lower - level. I think van Dijk looks set to be talked about in the same breadth as all of the elite defenders mentioned here, but it's hardly a controversial point to say let's judge him after more than a year. He was great at Southampton but we know that's not the same.
That isn't setting an arbitrary standard for van Dijk. It's the same standard that pretty much any neutral uses when it comes to the whole "world class" discussion. You can search through threads over the last two decades and find the exact same talking point. Naturally when he's your own player, you're a little quicker to announce him as such. That's the same on here too. After Ferdinand's performances in 07/08 lots of United fans were talking about him as the best player in the world while many Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal etc. fans said "Hold on folks, he's been great but...it's only one season. Before that he was good but a level below Terry and Carvalho, etc."
There are lots of defenders that have had exceptional seasons and then dropped down a level afterwards. What you're doing now is judging his current exceptional level as his overall level. What lots of United fans are doing is judging it as a great performance over a limited time period, which isn't necessarily indicative of how he'll always be. Most people are in the middle. There's no other way this discussion could go.
@redman5 in case you forgot, the narrative that about van Dijk being a good defender but overrated and overpaid was exactly the same narrative you bought into about Rio:
A year later and you had to admit he was a little more than a "good centre half". The same will happen here.
I think £30 million for Rio Ferdinand takes some beating when it comes to paying over the odds for a player
Good centre half, but £30 million for a defender FFS.
To think, some of you guys reckon Torres was overpriced
A year later and you had to admit he was a little more than a "good centre half". The same will happen here.
VVD should first perform at that level for at least two seasons and win something big before being compared to Vidic, Kompany, Terry who were terrific for years and won multiple titles.
Note also that VVD made mistakes in some of the most important games this season: (1) the foul against Sane at Anfiled that could have cost Liverpool a loss and (2) the bad challenge on Mertens that deserved a red as much as Kompany's on Salah. He wasn't particularly impressive in all 3 away CL games either.
Note also that VVD made mistakes in some of the most important games this season: (1) the foul against Sane at Anfiled that could have cost Liverpool a loss and (2) the bad challenge on Mertens that deserved a red as much as Kompany's on Salah. He wasn't particularly impressive in all 3 away CL games either.
Why? What does it acheive exactly?
VVD has had a terrific year, but let's remember he's 27, he's never won anything of note, and never even been to an International tournament. Comparing him to legends like Kompany, Rio and Vidic is like comparing apples and pears. Let's see where he is in 3-4 years time.
I can't believe I'm actually having this discussion, do you genuinely believe van Dijk is better than those 3 players?
For starters, they have sustained their exceptional level over multiple seasons and helped their team win trophies after trophies. Also, one thing which you completely seem to ignore that van Dijk has achieved sweet feck all when it comes to performing in Champions League or in an International tournament. The names which I mentioned before have done that, they have marshaled their defence in those cagey games where a goal could knock their sides out.
Once again, take off your scouse hat and try to understand why people are reluctant to put him in same elite category as Rio, Vidic, Terry or Kompany. He has not achieved anything and yet to show he can sustain this level for multiple seasons.
I don't ever recall bringing other defenders from the past into the debate though saying he needs to better, or equal, them, in order to be labelled top class.
It was a straight-forward question I asked. Nothing complicated or hypothetical about it. You chose not to answer it, so I'll draw my own conclusions from that.
Van Dijk is a small team bully, due to his reliance on physicality and lapses in concentration he regularly contributes to the team conceding goals against high quality players. The difference in his performances between the league and CL is startling.
The likes of Rio and Terry actually got better on the big occasion. Their main quality was in the mind which lended itself to high pressure situations. They were still quite physical but only as a last resort, which is the mark of an elite defender. Another defender that got better like that was Ashley Cole, I think the only two players that ever got the better of him were Messi and Ronaldo.
He is near unbeatable in the box, but have a look at him actually play in the box and it paints a picture. He's good in the box largely because he's a man mountain, he gets heavily attracted to the ball on set pieces which means there is generally a vacant space where he should be and players can get a run on him. I've seen Van Dijk go through a wave of Liverpool players just so he can get his head on the ball countless times, it's not something you should really do. It's not man or zonal marking, it's just Van Dijk marking the ball.
The likes of Rio and Terry actually got better on the big occasion. Their main quality was in the mind which lended itself to high pressure situations. They were still quite physical but only as a last resort, which is the mark of an elite defender. Another defender that got better like that was Ashley Cole, I think the only two players that ever got the better of him were Messi and Ronaldo.
He is near unbeatable in the box, but have a look at him actually play in the box and it paints a picture. He's good in the box largely because he's a man mountain, he gets heavily attracted to the ball on set pieces which means there is generally a vacant space where he should be and players can get a run on him. I've seen Van Dijk go through a wave of Liverpool players just so he can get his head on the ball countless times, it's not something you should really do. It's not man or zonal marking, it's just Van Dijk marking the ball.
Any Decent defender would've had an Impact on that pool defence and yes they would've had similar or better Impact (but we'll never know) IMO. They were great individually as well as part of the defence unit. Van Dijk is a good defender but some on here seem to be going overboard like yourself (I guess its one of the perks of being a pool player).
I have never suggested just because a player won trophies they're better than players who have not, you are suggesting that. Slippy is one of the best Midfielders to ever play the game and just because he didn't win as many trophies as someone else doesn't make him less of a player. You're the one who is bringing trophies to measure how good they're. your logic not mine. I'll forget players in different positions and only talk about Defenders. So based on your logic does it mean the likes of Maldini, Ramos, Cheillini, Vidic, Rio, Terry, Nesta, Lahm, Megamind aren't as great as everyone think because they haven't played for some like pool?
You're only looking at it from the point of view from which it suits your agenda, btw you can also look at those great players and see that they managed to maintain their positions (not talking about squad players) and high level of performance for many, many years (not 1 or 2 years) in teams where there was high demand to win matches and trophies (wining more trophies doesn't one player better than another, just so you know) and if they weren't as great as everyone think they are/were, they simply would have been replaced with better players.
If you're a pool fan, let me ask you this. Based on your logic are the likes of Dalglish, Rush, Souness etc... aren't as great as everyone thinks because they have played in great (who also won many, many trophies) pool teams?
I really don't disagree with anything you've said here. I just don't get the reasoning, that Kompany was the better player because he has won more. Thats a lazy argument imo.
The past year, I believe van Dijk has been up there performing at least at a similar level to Kompany's best.
However.. for him to achieve the same legacy as the likes of Ferdinand, Terry and Kompany, I agree that he has to perform at a high level for longer and win some trophies too.
You're reading into that unnecessarily, for whatever reason. It's just another version of the same story. There are certain players you use as a benchmark for what makes a "world class" player. At that time Terry was probably the best defender in the league and Nesta was probably the best defender in Ferdinand's ilk. He was compared to them regularly. The only reason past defenders are being brought into it is because most current defenders are a bit rubbish. Us United fans can attest to that!! It makes it harder to judge a player when there's so few direct, current comparisons to make. So some people are stretching back to the previous generation to find reference points. They'd be making the same argument if it was applicable to current defenders, but it isn't.
The fact that Rio played in an underperforming United team with Liam Miller and co. might not have been something you actively held against him, but it did make it easier for you to describe him as just "a good centre half". Similarly the fact that Rio happened to peak individually when we peaked in Europe made it easier for United fans to not just say he was the best in the league, but the best in Europe. The conditions players operate in does shape their public perception, and that's particularly true of defenders because they depend on a good system to play well. If you're in a team shipping goals all the time due to others' defensive mistakes, you'll have a tough time staking your claim as an elite defender - rightly or wrongly. Rio suffered from that alongside Silvestre and co.
I don't think he's saying much different to your last paragraph. He's saying the role Kompany played in winning those titles was essential, and existed over a long period of time, so van Dijk has to have a similar level of influence in a similarly successful team, or a higher level of influence in a less successful team, to be reasonably compared.
You can compare them on peak form over a 1 year period, and some people will think van Dijk has been better (e.g. me) and some will think Kompany was better at his best (e.g. Buchan). But to compare them as overall players, you are essentially comparing what you've described as their legacy. Anything other than that is just a comparison of form.
Not going to get into a debate about this because what you are saying is ridiculous. Bias if I have ever seen it.
Kept booting it out of play or upfield the other night
Has been average in Liverpool’s multiple away defeats this season (four?)
He’s dominant often but not always
Has been average in Liverpool’s multiple away defeats this season (four?)
He’s dominant often but not always
Are you for real? Of course, it was hypothetical. How else are we going to debate about this mythical scenario of impact Terry/Rio would've had on Liverpool
Also, I did answer as to why they are better players. They were able to perform at a high level for number of years compared to van Dijk's few months. This includes Europe as well as International tournaments. Get your head out of sand and read what people are writing.
Liverpool generally have been better defensively because of the way they play, they defend from the top and dangerous balls barely get to their defence, in most cases their defenders just mop up loose balls
Since TAA, Robertson got integrated into their defence from October 2017, Plus Milner and Wijnadum do a lot of work in midfield
I think a lot of work these other guys do are minimized just to praise VVD and make it seem he is the major reason Liverpool are keeping clean sheets
Putting VVD in the conversation for best CB the league has ever seen is insane, I mean Vidic, Tony Adams, Sol, Carvalho, Terry, Rio, Stam and most importantly Vidic played at a level higher and for longer
Liverpool media and fans have been so starved that they will push anyone as the best in history.
Another example
Since TAA, Robertson got integrated into their defence from October 2017, Plus Milner and Wijnadum do a lot of work in midfield
I think a lot of work these other guys do are minimized just to praise VVD and make it seem he is the major reason Liverpool are keeping clean sheets
Putting VVD in the conversation for best CB the league has ever seen is insane, I mean Vidic, Tony Adams, Sol, Carvalho, Terry, Rio, Stam and most importantly Vidic played at a level higher and for longer
Liverpool media and fans have been so starved that they will push anyone as the best in history.
Another example
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They have a history with this. I still remember fondly all the wingers they've had up through the years that were bang on to be better than our sub-par Ronaldo.
Its all hypothetical but the best CBs the premier league has ever seen, played in much more settled and established defences with more experience and debatably better players.
For example, lets take Terry. He played with Carvahlo, Ivanovic and Ashley Cole. I'd be hard pressed to find even a fellow Liverpool fan who would say Roberton is better than Ashley Cole, or Lovren matches the tactical application and intelligence of Carvahlo.
The same extends to Rio and Vidic. They played in absolutely phenomenal defences, infront of established premier league keepers who have been there for years. As good as Robertson has been, I'm under no illusions Evra is a clear tier above him in ability, leadership, command, presence, attacking ability and defensively at present. Playing with class acts such as these with multiple titles under the belts will make your life easier. That reminds me... the premier league's standards for defensive ability has dropped off a cliff the last few years. A prime Evra and Cole must be worth like 80M these days?
Taking this into account, I think the argument of VVD walking into a team with a terrible defensive record, with inexperienced and debatably poor players, under a coach who isn't best known for his defensive organisation or for setting up his teams to protect the defence... and fixing the defence is really really impressive. If VVD maintains this level of ability for the rest of his career, I struggle to really debate him being the best defender in individual ability that the premier league has seen.
Sadly the only attribute he is missing... medals and a winners mentality. Sure you can say you have grit, determination, speak all the right words in interviews; but its what you do and accomplish on the pitch that ultimately counts. That winning mentality that the likes of Scholes et al had without screaming it from the rooftops or having the most charismatic interviews. He hasn't proven he has that yet, and that would be my main reservation (other than longevity) in not saying he's one of, if not the best, centre back the premier league has seen.
For example, lets take Terry. He played with Carvahlo, Ivanovic and Ashley Cole. I'd be hard pressed to find even a fellow Liverpool fan who would say Roberton is better than Ashley Cole, or Lovren matches the tactical application and intelligence of Carvahlo.
The same extends to Rio and Vidic. They played in absolutely phenomenal defences, infront of established premier league keepers who have been there for years. As good as Robertson has been, I'm under no illusions Evra is a clear tier above him in ability, leadership, command, presence, attacking ability and defensively at present. Playing with class acts such as these with multiple titles under the belts will make your life easier. That reminds me... the premier league's standards for defensive ability has dropped off a cliff the last few years. A prime Evra and Cole must be worth like 80M these days?
Taking this into account, I think the argument of VVD walking into a team with a terrible defensive record, with inexperienced and debatably poor players, under a coach who isn't best known for his defensive organisation or for setting up his teams to protect the defence... and fixing the defence is really really impressive. If VVD maintains this level of ability for the rest of his career, I struggle to really debate him being the best defender in individual ability that the premier league has seen.
Sadly the only attribute he is missing... medals and a winners mentality. Sure you can say you have grit, determination, speak all the right words in interviews; but its what you do and accomplish on the pitch that ultimately counts. That winning mentality that the likes of Scholes et al had without screaming it from the rooftops or having the most charismatic interviews. He hasn't proven he has that yet, and that would be my main reservation (other than longevity) in not saying he's one of, if not the best, centre back the premier league has seen.
That's beyond a joke. Not even spurs fans would vote for Fabinho. They can't help bigging up everybody. Wasn't Solanke meant to be such a great player as well?
They have had great players, Suarez and Gerrard - there's no need to go so over the top in their praise of players.
They have had great players, Suarez and Gerrard - there's no need to go so over the top in their praise of players.
Think Liverpool fans are even aware of the likely possibility that Van Dijk might want to go and play with a bigger team?
Is he the best defender in the league now? Yes he is, and by a mile.
Is he any kind of special CB? I don't think so. He looks so good in the EPL now because the vast majority of CB"s are pretty trash and there aren't a lot of good all rounders.
He's very good in the air, good at positional play and average to decent at passing, like most of tall CB's.
I'm not denying his qualities, but he's nowhere near as good as Rio, Vidic, Terry, Carvalho, Stam and he will never be.
Is he any kind of special CB? I don't think so. He looks so good in the EPL now because the vast majority of CB"s are pretty trash and there aren't a lot of good all rounders.
He's very good in the air, good at positional play and average to decent at passing, like most of tall CB's.
I'm not denying his qualities, but he's nowhere near as good as Rio, Vidic, Terry, Carvalho, Stam and he will never be.
This is an example of trying to undersell the other part of the defense to make VVD look better.
Liverpool first choice defence is
Allison
TAA, Gomez, VVD Robertson
All of them are in top 5 in the league this season individually.
I have no doubt that Robertson is the best LB in the league currently,
Trent will be one of the top 3-5 in the league this season. He even held his own vs Ronaldo
Gomez is either better or around the ballpark of other current PL top 6 teams CBs like Rudiger Luiz, Stones, Jones, Lindelof, better than every Arsenal CB.
Allison behind them is another top 5 keeper in the entire world who was signed for a world record
So how are we making this defence to be garbage tier that Voltron VVD has to come save them?
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Depends if we win anything or not.
Not winning things is why players leave us for clubs that do win things.
If our trophyless run continues then we won’t keep hold of our best players.
I think the stipulation tied to the coutinho deal is the only reason he wouldn’t go to Barca at the earliest opportunity. Literally the perfect defender for them and he and umtiti would be as good as it gets for a few years.
Whatever about his qualities, I hate that sort of hyperbole when describing players; stuff like 'he's nowhere near as good' or such and such is 'miles better' and so on.
Van Dijk is an excellent player. He may or may not be as good as Stam, Rio and the like, but he's not 'nowhere near as good'.
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Vieira or Fabinho?. Bloody hell. What is next; Roberto Carlos vs Robertson?
. Bloody hell. What is next; Roberto Carlos vs Robertson?Herrera vs Kante and Rashford vs MbappeVieira or Fabinho?
Herrera vs Kante and Rashford vs Mbappe
Florent Ping Pongolle vs Ronaldo and Ryan Babel vs Ronaldo
Not bad response, i admit. But i have better. Alisson good as De gea.Herrera vs Kante and Rashford vs Mbappe
Sooo...if he's better than Vieira, that means (according to some) that he's better than Keane too?
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Van Dijk is probably is probably the best defender around right now. But, also with the way Football has been evolving I was wondering if a CB could still have this type of impact. I thought the Pique, Hummels, Ramos type would be the norm at top clubs important in the build up but, just hope they do not hurt you too much defensively. And people rave about Atletico and Juve's CBs but, they often play with a low block. Van Dijk doing what has been doing this season mostly playing in a high line is incredible.
I'm not underselling the defence. I'm comparing them to previous defences that other phenomenal premier league defenders have been apart of.
I'm not debating whether VVD is the best defender in the premier league NOW. I don't think its up for debate. He IS the best defender in the premier league now. Also our defence has improved ALL of this year since VVD has come in. This includes half a season with Lovren/Matip & Mignolet/Karius in goal. You're talking as if Gomez, TAA, Robertson and Allison have been at our club and playing in the first XI for the years. In reality, they've all emerged or been transferred over in the last 24 months; and shock-horror, dramatically improved since the arrival of VVD.
Anyway we've moved off point. I'm trying to debate whether he's better than PREVIOUS premier league defender greats (not current day ones, because I think its obvious he is better than every other CB in the league). Hence why I'm trying to compare our current defenders (Robertson to Evra/Cole, Gomez to Carvahlo/Terry/Rio/Vidic). If you think Robertson is better or equal to prime Ashley Cole or Evra, then good for you. Theres no point further holding a debate with someone who thinks someone with <18 months of top level football is better or equal to serial winners whom have competed at the highest stages of every competition and won multiple trophies.
Just for the sake of arguments, I think you're severely underrating the impact VVD has on the players around him. Take him out for this season, and I honestly don't think we would see the level of performances from Gomez and TAA. I'm not trying to undersell any of our players. I'm just a very realistic liverpool fan who understands the limitations, potential and ability of our defenders. I'm ready for TAA to have a bad game. I've seen Robertson in the past 2 games excluding the City game look complacent and give the ball away needlessly in our side of the park. These are flaws MOTD does not decide to show or pick up on, so obviously as long as we're winning, these two look like the bees-knees. They're great players but they still have much room for improvement.
Not sure about this. Unfortunately, he doesn’t strike me as being interested in going to Spain.
Pretty much