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Virgil Van dijk: UEFA Player of the year
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I must've missed that completely.
These awards just dumb now IMO. VVD is a fantastic CB and probably the best in the world currently but World Player of the Year over Messi and Ronaldo? Come on, have a word.
If we're voting for the best player in the world as an award, Messi should've won every single one since probably 2008 onwards and Ronaldo a close second. Ballon d'Or and FIFA Best (or whatever they're called these days) have just become popularity contests for hipsters. There's no way Modric was the best player in the world last year and no way VVD was this year either.
If we're voting for the best player in the world as an award, Messi should've won every single one since probably 2008 onwards and Ronaldo a close second. Ballon d'Or and FIFA Best (or whatever they're called these days) have just become popularity contests for hipsters. There's no way Modric was the best player in the world last year and no way VVD was this year either.
A bit of an overreaction. Given that the awards are seasonal I don't see what the problem is and VVD had/is having an immense season I'm not sure what the issue is. Most individual awards in literally every sport are given in the context of teams success. This is nothing new. Of course Messi is the better player but that is completely irrelevant when giving out a seasonal award that already has a precedent for factoring in team success. There's nothing to really moan about.
Your argument makes no sense. Would van Dijk have won anything if he stayed at Southampton? Of course Terry and Kompany only won things when they played in a better team, because that's how football works mate.
I'd have him over ronaldo easily, who is not in Messi's echelon anymore
VVD is playing with the likes of Salah and Mane who are world class forwards (it's probably only Messi who clearly stands out as a better attacker than Salah in world football atm) and he still clearly stands out as our best player.
Because City's success right now is not because of money it is because of Pep. Just like Klopps success in the CL was due to spending a quarter of a billion last year. The team that spends most wins most, agreed.
You missed when they won 3 trophies domestically and you won none? Ok.
How do you quantify the contributions of defenders and attackers and come to the conclusion that VVD contributes more than Salah/Mane? You are conflating subjective impressions with objective facts.
The perception that VVD is more important to your team than Salah is based on a dubious reasoning: Liverpool have massively improved after VVD's arrival, hence it is because of his arrival.
Example: City won 18 games in a row in 17/18 and the only defensive additions to their team were Walker and Ederson. It would be daft to think they alone propelled City from 78 to 100 pts. They contributed to that but Guardiola's coaching and more luck were the main factors. Similarly, VVD and Alisson contributed to you going from 75 to 97 pts (also 22 pts like City), but the main factor was the overall organsation of the team. And also luck. In terms of xG your improvement with VVD wasn't big, just 4 pts: in 17/18 you were unlucky and in 18/19 lucky. Same with City in 16/17 and 17/18.
If one out of VVD and Salah should miss the whole season, I think you'd win fewer pts with VVD and no Salah than with Salah and no VVD. That's my personal impression though, it's impossible to be sure as their contributions can't be quantified precisely.
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For me it's more of a 'from week to week' thing impression. Van Dijk manages to stand out as a performer on a regular basis.
That's not just me. There is a MotM/top3 vote tallied after every game from five different liverpool forums and Van Dijk came out top for the season.
Yet you seem to have missed that City and Guardiola have a poor record in Europe while Klopp has never lost a CL/EL knock-out tie at Liverpool, yet you'e pretty sure they'd have beaten us (not to mention they should've gotten past Ajax first and wouldn't have faced us directly).
They dominated on a whole domestically, they didn't particularly dominate us. Should've won at Anfield but fecked it up themselves, and the game at the Etihad didn't deserve a winner. In a lot of our meetings since Klopp and Guardiola are present, it's been Liverpool that was the better team (bar our 5-0 drubbing a few seasons ago).
No City player would be in the Ballon d'Or conversation if they had won the CL since there was no one who particularly stood out last season. I mean, was B. Silva great? Was Laporte? Sterling? Yeah, I guess - but it would've been Messi without a doubt that would win it.
Because they're just better than you. In both head to head games last season in the league they proved that and they'll probably do it again this season. Regardless of the competition I'll always back City to beat Liverpool and would always rather play Liverpool than City. By all rights they should have beaten us in the quarters but that's knockout football, we had everything go our way, whereas in the final everything went your way. City would have beaten Ajax comfortably 8/10 times.
You're the top two clubs in the country. You went out of both cups to focus on the league and they still won the league whilst winning both the cups to boot. Should have beaten you away and they were fully deserving of the three points at the Etihad, were the better side. Yes, in the past Klopp has come out on top but last season in both meetings I thought City looked comfortably the better team.
Sterling easily would. His goal wins it vs us, he scores a goal or two vs Ajax and maybe one in the final, and he's right bang in the Ballon d'or conversation. People were talking about him deserving it on here at the time. If City win a quadruple then that gets recognised with a Ballon d'or award for one of their top players, period.
Sterling winning it over Messi, please
Also firmly disagree that City deserved to win against us at the Etihad, and not everything went our way in the final. We had a lucky break 1min in and we comfortably played it out after that.I agree with you on the Van Dijk / Messi argument that initiated this, but I'd back us against City in a KO tie. It's understandable that you'd disagree. But the Champions League, Anfield, City's recent results in Europe, Guardiola's recent results in Europe, yeah... Not for me.
I know what the mass perception is like. I question its veracity. Generally speaking, perception is not a simple window to reality but tends to be heavily influenced by preconceptions and narratives. In this case, the perception of VVD is heavily influenced by the narrative that he almost single-handedly transformed Liverpool from also-rans into proper challengers for the big titles. It's a simplsitic and thus wrong narrative. VVD was a very important piece of the puzzle but other such very important pieces are Alisson, Salah, Mane...
Numbers tell us that after adding VVD, Alisson and Fabinho to the first team Liverpool improved by only 4 pts in terms of xG. Last season you have outperformed xG by 14 pts! Which means that you scored more goals than expected and conceded less than expected. How come? Well, your forwards were very clinical and your keeper was outstanding.
I repeat my question: if you have (nearly) the best player in the world at the heart of your defence and arguably the best keeper and some of the best fullbacks in the world, why did you concede in the run in twice as many goals as City who are suposed to have inferior defensive players? In the last 14 games City conceded 4 and you 8 goals. How come? Note that Fernandinho (and KDB) missed half of those games and Laporte missed also 2-3 league games. If VVD is such an incomparable defensive beast, why did City outperform you in the run in defensively wise?
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Yes, it's ridiculous and yes, it could happen. These awards are based on whatever team is the most successful. VVD winning it over Messi is laughable to nearly anyone who isn't a Liverpool fan, believe me.Sterling winning it over Messi, please
I agree with you on the Van Dijk / Messi argument that initiated this, but I'd back us against City in a KO tie. It's understandable that you'd disagree. But the Champions League, Anfield, City's recent results in Europe, Guardiola's recent results in Europe, yeah... Not for me.
That penalty gave you an easy platform to sit back and play the game on your terms and even despite that Alisson was your best player. You also took the only chance that actually came your way.
They deserved to win at Anfield, so it's a moot point.
City won 25 form 30 pts against the top 6, Liverpool 19 from 30. It's obvious they were better in the big games despite having more injury problems than you.
except for the coaches and journalists who voted. and bookies who have assumed it is likely vvd would win. I guess they are all Liverpool fans. Have a rant about corrupt refs and how we'll finish fourth now that VAR is here (bonus points for VAR also being corrupt) and you can leave the thread with top marks.
The coaches and journalists voted for the guy considered the key player/who had the biggest hype train of the team who won the CL. Which is pretty much what they're always gunna do.
Most people can accept that this is a stupid way to assess who actually had the best season, but it's mostly only Liverpool fans who argue it's fully deserved over Messi.
This is getting a tad boring. I am sure there is some run somewhere where we scored more than city. Doesn't make our attack more prolific than theirs.
I don't think my perception of what I see happening on the pitch at match day is particularly influenced by perceptions of how he transformed us, etc. He plays real good and that's what I see. More often than not, I see him playing better on the day than our attackers.
If you want to wikipedia the discussion, go on ahead, but I find that too boring to participate in.
Messi was better than vvd, but you're tying yourself into some sour grape knots with all this "sterling would have won it if so and so".
I've said over and over again in this thread that these awards are trophy-dependant since it would be Messi for 15 years straight if it was just the best player in the world, mate. You just come across as very bitter towards Liverpool and Van Dijk if I'm being honest.
He would have done if they won the CL. One of City's players would have been recognised with that award if the team wins the quadruple.
I'm not sour about it, vvd or messi winning it doesn't change anything for me, I just generally think the award is stupid and the way it works needs to be changed.
When was the last time it was given to a player whose team didn't win the CL? For years it was basically 'ok give it to either ronaldo or messi depending on which team managed to win the CL.'
It is in some cases, but it seems more like a popularity content to me. For instance Sneijder didn't win it after winning the treble with Inter Milan.
I can't say I remember too much from that game but it's weird that people say they deserved to win because they missed a penalty. They might've been better than us that game but if you don't take your chances and miss your own penalty, I'm not sure you "deserve" anything.
Did we deserve to win at the Etihad because we had a shot that was 2cm from crossing the goalline? It's closer than City got to a goal at Anfield.
How can you see that a CB is better than the keeper and the forwards when all of them are world class? Of course, your perception is influenced by narratives, it's how human minds work.
The bare numbers indicate that despite the perception that you have superior defensive players than City they outperformed you defensively wise and won the title. Unsurprisingly, you have no answer to that, it doesn't quite fit the narrative and is a bit too easily brushed aside by pundits and fans.
Regarding goals, well, you have the best forwards in the world after Messi (or it's only Salah who is second best?) and City played a lot of games without their assist machine, so no wonder they didn't score 20 goals more than you as in 17/18.
So .. the best player in the world would be consistently recognised as the best player in the world? There were a couple of years where I'd argue Ronaldo deserved it (or at least it was close) but otherwise sure, we shouldn't just give the award to somebody because we're bored.
I don't like Liverpool, but this has nothing to do with that. It doesn't make a difference to me whether or not one of your players gets an award, and I rate VVD incredibly highly. I just think the award should be renamed to 'key player of whoever won the cl' because that's what it basically is.
They had also two other pen non-calls, especialy against Aguero in the first half. They were better.
I'm 99.9% sure that Sneijder wins that one if Robben scores his 1v1 with Casillas despite the fact that it wouldn't change a thing about Sneijder's 2010 season - that's how slim the margins are, but of course trophies going to influence the opinion of journalists. It's a team sport after all and you can only do so much as an individual.
Also, Messi was close to his peak in 2010 and had 60 goals and 17 assists that year. VVD has it a little easier since Messi's numbers have decreased a bit and voter fatigue has settled in.
By watching them every week and asking myself who was better/more important to the performance on the day. I think observing what happens on the pitch is far more influential for any conclusions than narrative.
We are more reliant on our defenders for our clean sheets than city are. City defend differently to us by virtue of superior possession and stopping counter attacks early better than we do. We have a fair number of games where we see out games by sitting deeper and defending out of possession. I would expect VVD and Allison to be more tested on that basis than city's backline, so not surprising that is what happened. VVD is better than Laporte, but he is also more important to how we play than Laporte is to city.
I felt that was in terms of the execution a perfect away performance by City, they ground you down into submission then got their pen, Mahrez ruined what would have been a textbook description of how to play away at Anfield.
Speaking of which what on earth were they thinking giving the penalty to Mahrez instead of Jesus? It looked like he was going to throw up before taking it.
I agree VVD was better than Laporte, City's defensive organisation is probably more efficent than yours. That said, they leave more free spaces for the opposition to exploit and while the opposition sees less of the ball, if they manage to get it in behind the defenders, it's more difficult for the defenders and they seem more exposed than yours.
I don't quite agree with your claim to have a narrative-free perception of games but you come across as a fairly moderate and reasonable poster. Disagreements are inevitable, expecially with so different preferences and perspectives. For me VVD is an outstanding defender but the hype is strong as well and he get a bit more credit at the expense of the other top performers in your team. Alisson is probably as important as VVD and I think the same is the case with Salah who not only scores many golas but, unlike Mane, contributes many assists.
I am not saying narrative plays no part. Salah is a good example. He was still our best attacking player last season, but got very little credit for carrying the attacking burden for us in the first half of the season because he wasn't putting in record breaking numbers like the season before. Just that I don't think it is the main factor for watching them week in and week out. The claim I making based on it is just to compare him to our other players. I feel pretty solid on that comparison being based on how I see their performances.
Our attack last season was weird overall really. There were a lot of games where we played like shit, our attackers couldn't find each other, midfield offered little support, we experimented with stuff like playing salah central, Firmino deeper and some unlucky midfielder on the left wing in a 442 and no one seemed to play better from it. We always stayed in those games thanks to our defence and were then able to pull out a piece of individual skill or exploit a mistake to get the lead and ride it home from there. If there is a narrative in it, it is that we won a lot of games through resilience and grit last year (CL final a good example of that) and VVD is our general for those times.
Alisson was maybe our second best player last season, maybe tied with salah. Hard to overstate his importance to us. Don't think vvd wins the award with a lesser keeper behind him.
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Travesty. VVD is a donkey in comparison to other contenders for this award.
He's not
Messi is obviously a better player than Van Dijk. People like new things, and the award is not measured with objective metrics. Many people seem to think VVD deserve to win the dumb thing, so he probably will. Is it fair? Dunno, but who gives a feck.
If we fail to qualify for the next Euro's I will personally ride my bicycle to his home in Liverpool and knock the award of his mantle though.
If we fail to qualify for the next Euro's I will personally ride my bicycle to his home in Liverpool and knock the award of his mantle though.
My mom is indeed a terrible poster, her Facebook activity is horrendous.
What about her Tinder activity?
okies i confess maybe the way I presented that idea came across silly. Do the completey different skillset of Messi mean he is a better footballer than the skillsets of VVD? I guess we tend to judge players based on attacking skills, so in this case defensive players can rarely get the recognition they may deserve.
I know they already do this but maybe best overall footballer awards should be scrapped in favour of the best GK, Defender, midfielder, forward, that way fewer feelings will be hurt.
I don't think many footballers' feelings will be hurt if you tell them Messi is the best in the world. Maybe Ronaldo would, but that is only because he is the only one capable of justifying a comparison. VVD had a great season, no doubt, but I think only a very small minority would claim he is an overall greater footballer than Messi.