Ending your opinions with it's that simple doesn't really show that you think people are entitled to disagree. You seem to think of yourself as a superior football mind than others, at least that's how it comes across.You're not up to much yourself mate. To criticise somebody for something and then do it yourself for an even more menial reason (spelling a player's name wrong) before even finishing the sentence takes some doing.
I think I've been pretty clear as to why I think Messi has been better. Yet the abuse you have to take on this place for having a different opinion to people is utterly pathetic. As always, people are entitled to disagree. But at least say why, rather than starting to insult the person without even making the smallest effort to contribute to a conversation.
No, I don't want you to argue. Simply to state why you disagree. The place becomes pretty toxic when people just want to argue.
As for the second highlighted bit..
Virgil Van dijk: UEFA Player of the year
- Thread starter VJ1762
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Vidic 08/09, Terry 03/04, 04/05 (Chelsea conceded 15 goals all season), Carvalho was absolutely immense that season too.
I get the hype with VVD is still fresh, but he made a fair few mistakes last season, some of which went unpunished (giving a penalty away against City).
So I have to say in every post "you are entitled to disagree" so that people don't get offended?
It is that simple. IN MY OPINION. Barca without Messi would probably have finished 4th in the league and gone out of the CL much earlier. He has more of an impact on Barca than Van DIJK does on Liverpool. I personally think that without Van Dijk Liverpool would still have finished second (with less points) and still have got to the semis of the CL. Would they have gone further? Who knows. The CL is a cup competition. UEFA and the media (in some countries) will try and convince you it's the most important, but it's a cup competition. How can you be the best team in Europe if you're not even the best team in your country? You need luck to win the CL. Really, City were the best team in Europe last season, but due to bad luck they went out against Spurs when they battered them really. Going back to Messi, that Barca team is one of their worst for many years, yet at the age of 32 he continues to defy an logic and scores more goals then games and drags them to titles and latter stages of the CL. They'd be nowhere (relatively speaking) without him. Liverpool would be worse without VVD, but they'd still be a top top team.
All perceptions would be different about this award if it weren't for one game, and I refuse to base my entire opinion on one game rather than the season on a whole.
This is why I disagree with Van Dijk potentially winning the World Player of the Year instead of Messi. Many will agree, many will disagree. That's life.
Vidic was every bit as good (even better I'd say) in the first half of 08/09, but his form dropped off quite a lot in the second half of the season. Still very good obviously and it was still probably the second best season any defender has had in the premier league era, but VVD passed that last season as he maintained that form all season. Terry and Carvalho were a step down from that, even in their best seasons IMO. Terry however stayed at or near his best for longer than any other defender that is in the discussion, so he has that going for him.
You were asking for top players and they definitely are. Best ever in their position would exclude almost everyone. How many from Fergusons United could be considered the best ever in their position? Ronaldo? Schmeichel?
PL wise (which is what we are talking about): Evra, Ferdinand, Vidic, Scholes, Keane, Ronaldo, Rooney, Cantona, G. Neville,
All of those would be in with an argument for best PL players in their positions.
Fair enough that's a perfectly reasonable opinion indeed.
I don't agree with parts of it, e.g. Barca would've walked the league without Messi with Real being so shit and Atlético not as strong a challanger as they used to be. I love Messi, as already stated, but I don't like the attitude of some Messi fans that it's all due to Messi that Barcelona stays relevant these days, and that only the team is to blame when they've put in yet another pathetic performance in the KO stages of the CL. If Messi gets the accolades for dragging them through, he should be blamed if he doesn't do that as well imo. The demise of Barca is also exaggerated for me - yeah they're nowhere near their early '10s level these days but for example last year, I think they still would've won the title and would've gotten to the semis (even without Messi they would've walked the ties vs United and Lyon).
It's very difficult to say where Liverpool would've ended in the PL and CL without Van Dijk, so all that is purely hypothetical. Messi has been the best player on the planet for nigh on 15 years, so when held against his ridiculously high own standards, he failed to accomplish his own goal last season which was winning the CL (I think he even said so himself). So yeah, I think that the CL exit (against Van Dijk, no less) should be held against him for a part. Should it be held against him that much that it diminishes his other accomplishments in the entire season? Debatable and I'd say not. Let's be honest, it would be Messi winning this trophy if they put out Liverpool, or even if Liverpool lost to Tottenham in the final. These trophies shouldn't be decided on the outcome of one or two games, but they are - and admittedly, they are the biggest games of the season so it's fair that they count for way more than 4 goals in a 5-0 home win against the likes of Alméria.
Like I already said above, you could argue both ways in this one and it depends on which criteria you apply. But getting knocked out the way he did in the CL, especially after the embarrassment against AS Roma this year, will definitely have played a deciding factor in the voting. That could be down to the other players, it could be down to Valverde, all good - but if the team's accomplishments are mainly due to Messi, so should the team's shortcomings be, and that's delivering when it counts most. They failed to do so at Anfield.
Two goals were a direct consequence of Jordi Alba individual mistakes, and then the horrific marking from a corner for the fourth. As bad as Barca were that night, Liverpool didn't slice through them for these goals. They were gifted goals by horrific defending. I don't think Messi can be blamed for the team's left back making stupid errors.
The biggest mistake he made over the two legs was passing the ball the Dembele in the last second of the game in the Camp Nou. If he'd have been more selfish, I think the tie would have been over in that moment.
As you say, it depends on the criteria. Unfortunately in recent years, the criteria has been the best player for the team who won the CL. I personally think that's a nonsense criteria to be honest. It's a cup competition, and requires a lot of luck to win it. I can't really remember the last time a team won it and you said "yep, that's undisputedly the best team in Europe." Probably Barca when they last won the treble with Neymar, Messi and Suarez up front with Luis Enrique as manager? It looks like this trend of giving it to someone from the CL winner will continue this year with the award going to Van Dijk.
In my opinion it should just be given to the person who has been the best player in the world over the previous 12 months. In my opinion, that has once again been Messi.
They are all some of the PL greats. You gave Totti and de Rossi as examples yourself though
The point was, if a player could be considered among the best, if they weren't challenging for trophies and you gave Totti and de Rossi as examples yourself. Anyway.. The point remains the same whether it is from the PL era or anywhere else. You can be considered among the greats even if you're in a team that doesn't win trophies. I do agree that it is a lot easier to be considered in that category if you challenge and win trophies along the way.
Ermmm...Gerrard won every domestic title (and Ufea and CL). The only major trophy he never won was the PL. On this basis how can one put him next to the likes of Totti and Rossi?
If put giggs in there. Who’s been a better left winger?
It is not a matter of comparing a CB with a forward. When a player has a 50 goal-30 assist per season kind of influence it is very hard to find a player with a bigger positive impact on their teams. VVD is an immense CB, but it's not hard to imagine a, say, in form Godin having similar kind of performances for Liverpool during the last 24 months. Yet, nobody would ever dare to compare Godin with Messi.
At the end of the day, the impact a player can make is reflected on the market prices. That's why 80 million is expensive for a CB, but you would struggle to imagine Barcelona accepting to sell Messi for 400 or 500 million, even today.
If you want to think about someone having very big impact in modern football, go no further than Ramos. Great defensive performances in CL stages (for those who saw the games, otherwise I cannot help anyone) and lots of decisive goals. Yet very far from the Messi-Ronaldo tyranny.
They won the World Cup
Yeah missed that one
I think forwards get noticed and celebrated because they do the scoring and the dribbling, etc. But is the job of a forward more important than that of a goalkeeper or defend?
To answer your question directly:
Zanetti
Puyol
Ramos
Lahm
Chiellini
Marcello
Etc.
Godin doesn't have the athleticism to play the way Liverpool do, he would need a Van Dijk beside him to make it work, what makes his impact big is the fact Liverpool don't play the way Atletico do, higher line, more goals, the fact Liverpool defence last season was as good as Atletico at its best without conceding attacking impetus is a credit to VVD.
It's not more important, just more difficult, on average. Football's a low scoring sport
True. But again, VVD's impact on liverpool goes far beyond his own individual greatness. He's a sort of security blanket for them. Makes everybody play with more confidence and less fear
Same goes for Alisson as well actually
Even if you are right about that, the point is Van Dijk is way more easy to substitute than Messi, and that can be seen in the market valuation.
I am not going to be churlish about this, Van Dijk has been immense for Liverpool. He has proved all of his doubters wrong and has visibly and demonstrably improved that Liverpool side. Of all the accolades showered on Van Dijk, the true measure of his quality is the fact that he improves other players. It is easy to be a star man and a top player, but you are really, really good when your very presence helps others to raise their game. Gomez is better next to Van Dijl, Robertson and Trent have become better next to Van Dijk and Matip was arguably performing better than Van Dijk himself towards the end of last season. That for me is the mark of a great player.
On a wider point, whilst I do believe that Van Dijk deserves the award for his performances this season, let's not kid ourselves, Messi is a far better player. Messi is arguably the best player that has ever played the game. Van Dijk is great, make no mistake but even he rightly acknowledges that Messi is the best there is.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know who votes for the UEFA Player of the Year award?
On a wider point, whilst I do believe that Van Dijk deserves the award for his performances this season, let's not kid ourselves, Messi is a far better player. Messi is arguably the best player that has ever played the game. Van Dijk is great, make no mistake but even he rightly acknowledges that Messi is the best there is.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know who votes for the UEFA Player of the Year award?
Well deserved. He was incredible last season and the best centre back I have seen since Alessandro Nesta. Arguably the best Dutch defender I have seen in my lifetime.
Every coach from all the clubs that participated in EL and CL groups has a vote (80), and 55 journalists representing all Uefas national associations has a vote too.
"The likes of Totti", like being compared to him is some kind of affront to Gerrard. Totti won the Serie A, Coppa Italia and the World Cup.
As this is a UEFA award it will be tied to CL performances and along with the keeper, he was the key man in the competition
This aged well
I like the laughing emoji when talking about Liverpool having a potential title challenge in 18/19 and the 'if he's worth £60m, Bailly is worth £100m"
Instead of Wife Swap let's Position Swap.
If Messi had to play defence for a whole season whilst VVD played attack for a whole season. Who would do a better job? I actually think Messi would suck at being a defender, he's not the greatest when it comes to tackling whereas VVD would probably make a great target man... So then on that basis isn't VVD a better footballer?
I think we have a natural bias towards attackers because what they do is pleasing on the eye, but doesn't mean bring a defender isn't an art form in itself. Yes I will accept that I would rather watch Messi over VVD as well but maybe we shouldn't get too upset either that VVD beat Messi to the europEur award, I think he deserves it for the way he single handily transformed Liverpool's shaky defence into the game of thrones wall.
If Messi had to play defence for a whole season whilst VVD played attack for a whole season. Who would do a better job? I actually think Messi would suck at being a defender, he's not the greatest when it comes to tackling whereas VVD would probably make a great target man... So then on that basis isn't VVD a better footballer?
I think we have a natural bias towards attackers because what they do is pleasing on the eye, but doesn't mean bring a defender isn't an art form in itself. Yes I will accept that I would rather watch Messi over VVD as well but maybe we shouldn't get too upset either that VVD beat Messi to the europEur award, I think he deserves it for the way he single handily transformed Liverpool's shaky defence into the game of thrones wall.
£120m now with inflation mate!This aged well
I like the laughing emoji when talking about Liverpool having a potential title challenge in 18/19 and the 'if he's worth £60m, Bailly is worth £100m"
What the feck is this post.
Some posters properly embarrassed themselves. I dont know how some watched him at Southampton and thought he was garbage. That he turned out this great was probably unexpected, but he was an excellent player back then as well, was obvious to see, just needed to work on some details
Apart from the obvious autocorrect spelling errors what is wrong with thr post?
Hypothetically put Messi in defence and VVD in attack who does a better job? Simple subjective question. I said VVD end of.
Well that is an even more impressive achievement then.
It's a completely meaningless thing to say. Being more versatile doesn't make you a better footballer otherwise James Milner would currently be going for a Ballon d'or.
Messi could play anywhere across the front 3 or in midfield flawlessly because he's a technical genius. He's on a completely different stratosphere to Van Djik in terms of talent. Van Djik, if he continues this form, will go down as one of the best defenders of this era, Messi will probably go down as the greatest footballer who has ever lived, or at the very least one of the top contenders. He doesn't need to be able to play cb because that's .. not his role? Anymore than it would be relevant if VVD doubled up as a world class goalkeeper. Who cares?
And yeah, the best/most talented footballers generally gravitate towards being attackers because they're the most decisive players on the pitch. Van Djik also single handedly didn't achieve anything, can we stop with this unreal hyperbole about him? Liverpool signed a world class keeper, vastly improved their left back, and also brought in a great DM. Van Djik was a huge part of an improved defence but if you only brought him in and nobody else, he wouldn't be getting nearly as much praise.
In his mid 20's, VVD was playing for Southampton. At 18 Messi was runner up in the Ballon d'or, and whilst VVD was at Celtic he scored 50 (yes fecking 50) league goals in one of the best leagues in the world. Any comparison of their ability or level as footballers is absolute insanity and I can't believe the conversation is even being broached. One has had one world class season as a cb, the other has been world class since he turned an adult and maintained that level throughout his entire career - ripping through world class defenders like Boateng for fun, running games like a maestro .. etc.
Van Djik won this award because people are bored of the messi/ronaldo dominance. If Messi broke through this season as a 21 year old at Barca and scored that many goals and got that many assists in the league and cl then he would be pissing the award. VVD wasn't even better in the CL - Messi scored 2 against Lyon, 2 against Manchester United and 2 against Liverpool. To go along with the 6 he scored against Spurs and PSV in the group stages, and the performance against us was genuinely frightening.
But like I said before .. these competitions are based on nothing more than where the wind is blowing/current popularity.
He was dribbled past several times since the start of the season.
Have you seen Jaap Stam?
But seriously, VVD might well be on that level right now. Which is frightening
Wow. Have to go to page 2 to find even one post that didn't age terribly.
Nothing from me ^^
Well deserved
If he wins the Ballon d’Or, it’ll be more deserved than the previous winner at least.