Was it a red?

[90 + 5min]

The thing is though the ref waves play on until Salah brought attention to the severity of the situation. It’s hard to say how bad the tackle was with no replays, but it seemed like an unfortunate injury more so than a horrible tackle.

Originally, Pawson allowed the game to continued, and only blew up when he saw the reaction. Up until then, he didn't even consider it a foul. We saw a near identical challenge a few minutes later on Mane and he deemed it fair.

I'm not saying it was horrible tackle. I think it was just bad luck that it went like it went. If it was other way around we would said red. Or if it was us instead of Liverpool.

" A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent " are the rules. And while it can be discussed about level of danger from the challenge the result of the tackle can be seen.

 

[Jericho]

I thought sliding from behind was basically illegal anyway. Add to that the fact that did foul him, seems like a red card was inevitable with or without the injury.

 

[ivaldo]

I'm not saying it was horrible tackle. I think it was just bad luck that it went like it went. If it was other way around we would said red. Or if it was us instead of Liverpool.

" A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent " are the rules. And while it can be discussed about level of danger from the challenge the result of the tackle can be seen.

I can't agree with that line of thinking. It would mean every injury from a challenge would be a red. Every clash of heads from an honest challenge in the air would be a red. It's refereeing the reaction and not the action. The following tackle on Mane which didn't even result in a freekick highlights this.

 

[hellhunter]

I can't agree with that line of thinking. It would mean every injury from a challenge would be a red. Every clash of heads from an honest challenge in the air would be a red. It's refereeing the reaction and not the action.

100% spot on in my book. Can't look at the outcome to judge a challenge.

 

[Red_Aaron]

Without the injury I don't think there's any chance at all that he gets sent off for that challenge

 

[Oly Francis]

Doesn't like the great challenge you guys are all describing from this angle :

 

[Berbasbullet]

Doesn't like the great challenge you guys are all describing from this angle :

Hey Siri, show me a still image that shows me nothing.

 

[Shane88]

Surely footage must exist somewhere? It's ridiculous that it's hidden like a fecking state secret.

 

[Ish]

Pawson didn't even give a foul initially. He played on, and only blew up when he saw the reaction. But we are told the ref was always going to be a red? Did he misplace his whistle?

Feel for the lad, but terrible officiating.

This. Not a red. Just very unfortunate for Elliott.

Then again, I only saw it in real time with no replay.

 

[EtH]

The trailing leg is high, extended and goes straight into Elliott’s ankle. It’s a red.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

To be honest when a player suffers a bad injury like this, I think it's a bit distasteful to debate whether or not it was a red card especially when the red card had little impact on the match itself.

I'm sure if Greenwood was on the end of a similar challenge and had to come off on a stretcher that Man Utd fans would be wanting a red card too.

Hope the young lad gets better soon.

 

[hellhunter]

The trailing leg is high, extended and goes straight into Elliott’s ankle. It’s a red.

Going by the picture above, it's neither high nor extended.

 

[Ole's screen]

To be honest when a player suffers a bad injury like this, I think it's a bit distasteful to debate whether or not it was a red card especially when the red card had little impact on the match itself.

I'm sure if Greenwood was on the end of a similar challenge and had to come off on a stretcher that Man Utd fans would be wanting a red card too.

Hope the young lad gets better soon.

We have been in this situation. And the player was not given a red. Whats distasteful about feeling sympathy for the injured player but also realizing that injuries are part of high level sport? Why is it hard to hold that idea in our heads that sometimes fair sport can lead to injuries too.

 

[EtH]

Going by the picture above, it's neither high nor extended.

That photo is useless as it’s after main impact. Stuijk is already on his way up.

 

[Rob]

Based on that single video, it doesn’t look red to me.

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

Surely footage must exist somewhere? It's ridiculous that it's hidden like a fecking state secret.

It's even more weird when you consider that, although it's definitely a bit more visibily gruesome, a fracture almost always has a better long term prognosis than a popped achilles or certain ligament injuries - both of which are always given replay after replay.

If it's the gruesome factor (yet they have no issue replaying bloody head injuries?)... wait until post-match, give the viewers a warning and show it 10 seconds later.

 

[André Dominguez]

OK, players now will know that if you hit the ball first, everything that happens next is free of charges. He basically crushed the guy ankle with his knee bended. A bended knee is the most porweful human weapon in combat.

 

[Harry190]

Surely footage must exist somewhere? It's ridiculous that it's hidden like a fecking state secret.

They won't release it. But there are high definition pics. It was a freak accident. There was no malice, there was no intent, it wasn't even a yellow on another day. It was just unfortunate that he caught the angle.

 

[hobbers]

It's not a red card challenge, it's just awfully bad luck.

His studs or toe catch on the grass and the weight of the trailing leg twists the ankle.

 

[Oranges038]

Never a red, it's not even a foul.

Pawson just sent him off for the injury and the reaction.

 

[Oly Francis]

That photo is useless as it’s after main impact. Stuijk is already on his way up.

You clearly haven't watched the video properly, Stujik is in this position when the impact occurs. He blocked Elliott's ankle between his knee/leg and the ground. It was not on purpose but it's a clear red for reckless behavior.

 

[Cutch]

The trailing leg is high, extended and goes straight into Elliott’s ankle. It’s a red.

His trailing leg couldn't be any lower, hence connecting with Elliott at ankle height as you've already said

 

[EtH]

You clearly haven't watched the video properly, Stujik is in this position when the impact occurs. He blocked Elliott's ankle between his knee/leg and the ground. It was not on purpose but it's a clear red for reckless behavior.

I watched the match. I might be interpreting that photo incorrectly, but I basically said the same thing you did in my post prior. His trailing leg goes straight into and through Elliott’s ankle which is reckless as you say.

His trailing leg couldn't be any lower, hence connecting with Elliott at ankle height as you've already said

If it were as low as you say it would’ve connected with Elliott’s boot rather than going over his ankle. It’s dangerous and reckless play from the Leeds player.

 

[PoTMS]

We have been in this situation. And the player was not given a red. Whats distasteful about feeling sympathy for the injured player but also realizing that injuries are part of high level sport? Why is it hard to hold that idea in our heads that sometimes fair sport can lead to injuries too.

Second time I've seen this "distasteful" line used in this particular thread. As if Harvey Elliot or any of his family will decide to view a Manchester United forum tonight and expect to see some grace and decorum instead of actually discuss about a big talking point. It's as if some people forget this is an online forum sometimes.

 

[GledTheRed]

How can he send him off when he didn't give a foul? I don't get it.

 

[Oly Francis]

How can he send him off when he didn't give a foul? I don't get it.

VAR can inform the ref that a foul he didn't give deserves a red.

 

[LazyGoal]

Clear foul and red. You guys are fooled by one camera angel.

A lot of kids dont make it to true legend status later in their carrer becouse of shit like this.

How many «great ones» have had such injurys at this age?

 

[ThehatchetMan]

We have been in this situation. And the player was not given a red. Whats distasteful about feeling sympathy for the injured player but also realizing that injuries are part of high level sport? Why is it hard to hold that idea in our heads that sometimes fair sport can lead to injuries too.

I wasn't suggesting that injuries aren't part of the game in my post.

However in this scenario where the card had no impact on the result, and whereby there is very little footage available to see the tackle from different angles or at different speeds; I don't think it's appropriate to have the debate.

Nobody has the evidence available to be able to make an informed opinion. And a young lad is in hospital with what may be a serious injury.

I just feel sometimes there are more important things than football and in certain instances a bit more compassion should be shown.

 

[Ole's screen]

I wasn't suggesting that injuries aren't part of the game in my post.

However in this scenario where the card had no impact on the result, and whereby there is very little footage available to see the tackle from different angles or at different speeds; I don't think it's appropriate to have the debate.

Nobody has the evidence available to be able to make an informed opinion. And a young lad is in hospital with what may be a serious injury.

I just feel sometimes there are more important things than football and in certain instances a bit more compassion should be shown.

You can't pre judge while the game is still on. Teams have come back from worse situations and Leeds certainly are a team capable of scoring a flurry of goals.

 

[Merk78]

Not a red for me as didn’t appear to be malicious or wreckless and I watched it back umpteen times. Could be argued that it’s not a tackle from the back either as he’s nearly side by side when he goes to ground. Very unfortunate outcome but if I were the Leeds player I’d feel aggrieved with the sending off.

 

[Achilles McCool]

OK, players now will know that if you hit the ball first, everything that happens next is free of charges. He basically crushed the guy ankle with his knee bended. A bended knee is the most porweful human weapon in combat.

Stop with your MMA comparison BS.
This is football, ffs

 

[Becks_VII]

Clear foul and red. You guys are fooled by one camera angel.

A lot of kids dont make it to true legend status later in their carrer becouse of shit like this.

How many «great ones» have had such injurys at this age?

Is there other angles that have been showed yet? I only seen the live shot and then the photo someone showed above.
I think it was a very unfortunate incident and poor Elliot came out of it the worst.

 

[Dominos]

It's a tough one.

I don't have a huge problem if the default position is "if you tackle with enough force and lack of care that it snaps your opponents leg in half, it's an automatic red". It puts some pressure and responsibility on the players to tackle with a reasonable amount of force and be conscious in their technique not to snap the oppositions legs in half. In this scenario, he's jumped in hard and his trailing leg has done the damage, although he's obviously not intended to hurt the player he's chosen to tackle with a technique and amount of force that endangered the opposition.

I know there will be plenty of "clean" tackles over the course of a season that could technically have caused a broken leg under different circumstances, but you have to give the benefit of the doubt when we don't have the clear evidence of the potential danger, otherwise we're bringing a huge amount of subjectivity into it. In this scenario we have the evidence, his shin is snapped in half which doesn't happen very often considering the amount of football played worldwide, which suggests the tackle was somewhat reckless.

Edit: apparently not a broken leg but dislocated ankle. Forget everything I said!

 

[acnumber9]

To be honest when a player suffers a bad injury like this, I think it's a bit distasteful to debate whether or not it was a red card especially when the red card had little impact on the match itself.

And yet the manager of said player was doing everything he could to make sure the Leeds player got sent off. When it comes to distasteful, I think some internet chatter is small fry.

 

[acnumber9]

VAR can inform the ref that a foul he didn't give deserves a red.

Yeah, but the ref has to view it. VAR aren’t supposed to make those decisions.

 

[SAFMUTD]

To be honest when a player suffers a bad injury like this, I think it's a bit distasteful to debate whether or not it was a red card especially when the red card had little impact on the match itself.

I'm sure if Greenwood was on the end of a similar challenge and had to come off on a stretcher that Man Utd fans would be wanting a red card too.

Hope the young lad gets better soon.

Exactly my thoughts, FFS the poor kid is going to miss the rest of the season.

 

[Jippy]

It's a tough one.

I don't have a huge problem if the default position is "if you tackle with enough force and lack of care that it snaps your opponents leg in half, it's an automatic red". It puts some pressure and responsibility on the players to tackle with a reasonable amount of force and be conscious in their technique not to snap the oppositions legs in half. In this scenario, he's jumped in hard and his trailing leg has done the damage, although he's obviously not intended to hurt the player he's chosen to tackle with a technique and amount of force that endangered the opposition.

I know there will be plenty of "clean" tackles over the course of a season that could technically have caused a broken leg under different circumstances, but you have to give the benefit of the doubt when we don't have the clear evidence of the potential danger, otherwise we're bringing a huge amount of subjectivity into it. In this scenario we have the evidence, his shin is snapped in half which doesn't happen very often considering the amount of football played worldwide, which suggests the tackle was somewhat reckless.

It isn't and it hasn't happened here. He has a dislocated ankle, so let's stick to the facts.

 

[André Dominguez]

Stop with your MMA comparison BS.
This is football, ffs

Precisely, no need to use your knee as a weapon. It was clearly a careless tackle.

 

[Doracle]

Doesn’t look a red card. Unfortunate though the injury is, the outcome shouldn’t influence the decision.

 

[caid]

The trailing leg makes it a red imo. Its a tackle from behind that goes through the player. It looks borderline obvious to me so somewhat surprised by so many waving it off.
Both feet off the floor before the tackle too which should be a red in itself.