Was Louis Van Gaal our best "coach" in the post Fergie years?

[TrustInJanuzaj]

His style wasn't "boring" he didn't set out to pass sideways. He just wasn't as good as breaking down parked busses as modern coaches like ETH and Tuchel are. It didn't help that all his signings were shit.

Him and Mourinho were both good coaches, they're not dissimilar.

Him and Mourinho are nothing alike though.

 

[stevoc]

Pre transfer committee, managers gave Woodward names of players they wanted but that was really their only input, when it became clear United couldn't go out and just buy anyone like we said we could do he ended up having to raid his old network for signings (when you think of how old he was and that he was out of domestic football it's no wonder it was so bad): ADM, Schweini, Blind, Depay, Valdes, Rojo, Romero were all former players, players he'd tried to sign years back or simply just seen at the WC and liked the look of...that's how badly we were run post SAF/Gill.

As said, no issues with the sacking, his football wasn't right for us as a club but if we're judging on what we see on the pitch, he's the only one who actually put any kind of complex structure in place tactically.

That was the case before, during and after LVG.

Van Gaal asked for players and the club missed out on some but signed others. That's how it works at every club to be honest.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That was the case before, during and after LVG.

Van Gaal asked for players and the club missed out on some but signed others. That's how it works at every club to be honest.

It's not though, as we have seen since we set up a transfer committee and finally modernised...most clubs a manager is a head coach as a priority and has a say on signing but isn't in control, some might be more influential than others (Pep you'd think has a lot of influence) whereas we know with Chelsea the manager has much less weight versus Granovskaia for some easy examples. On top of that our scouting team was generally thought if as poor, LVG said this directly, Woodward even made a statement admitting it and Mou then had a major revamp for the academy/scouting network. We used to have 12 scouts reporting to one Head scout and reading between the lines from what Woodward said ('it was more set up to say 'no') it sounds like we missed out on a lot of targets because of that.

 

[Roane]

But that's how we judge signings, with hindsight. There is no other way of judging them.

Everybody gets excited about a new signing but managers are paid millions to see beyond that excitement and evaluate if they'll actually be of use to us. Like I said I don't think he got a single one right. Total disaster.

Nah can't agree with that. You sign players on a variety of factors. Mainly performance at that time and and potential. We know LVG wanted Mane but we didn't get him. But to say he was wrong for signing Di Maria at the time is laughable to me. Even Schneiderlin at the time was basically Rice now.

Things don't work out and that's fair enough, especially the whole di Maria saga.

When we signed fellaini I didn't need hindsight to think what the hell, if we had signed Harry Kane last season and he played like he has this season I wouldn't say it was a bad signing by the manager at the time.

We have had many players who we have signed and it's not worked out, for various reasons. Jones is an example of a guy who was touted for the top. His leg issues were not something that could be foreseen at the time. Hargreaves, what a signing but ultimately injured. RVP what a signing then rubbish.

 

[Ogaranya]

Yes he is.

 

[Ogaranya]

We made mistake replacing him with Mourinho, atleast Van Gaal laid down the foundation for a possession based football, we should have hired someone with the same philosophy but a bit pragmatic to build on the structure.
I will not be surprised that City will bring in Ten Hag when Pep leaves.

 

[Marwood]

Nah can't agree with that. You sign players on a variety of factors. Mainly performance at that time and and potential. We know LVG wanted Mane but we didn't get him. But to say he was wrong for signing Di Maria at the time is laughable to me. Even Schneiderlin at the time was basically Rice now.

Things don't work out and that's fair enough, especially the whole di Maria saga.

When we signed fellaini I didn't need hindsight to think what the hell, if we had signed Harry Kane last season and he played like he has this season I wouldn't say it was a bad signing by the manager at the time.

We have had many players who we have signed and it's not worked out, for various reasons. Jones is an example of a guy who was touted for the top. His leg issues were not something that could be foreseen at the time. Hargreaves, what a signing but ultimately injured. RVP what a signing then rubbish.

Didn't LvG sign about 13 players or something?

Not one turned out to be an unarguable success.

So to say his transfer record was anything but rubbish is a bit bananas to me. How could it have been worse.

 

[Roane]

Didn't LvG sign about 13 players or something?

Not one turned out to be an unarguable success.

So to say his transfer record was anything but rubbish is a bit bananas to me. How could it have been worse.

Yeah he signed 13 players. Arguably 18 of you count those are who never played for the first team and look kes of Timothy fosuh mensah. Also gave rashford his debut

Shweini not good but what a player previously
Valdes on a free
Luke shaw who suffered a broken leg but arguably has been good.

Herrera won player of the season
blind was a good signing
Depay nearly ended up at Barca
Darmian began well
Di Maria was good
Falcao wasn't good for is or Chelsea but found his form after
Martial has gone down since but was good
Rojo started well
Romero arguably the best back up to arguably the one time best and wasn't he free
Shneiderlin highly rated at the time

Since them we know he wanted Kante, mane, milner (who people didn't want due to age but has done well at lfc) and mahrez

Spoke about Neymar and Hummel's and Ramos etc

 

[Marwood]

Yeah he signed 13 players. Arguably 18 of you count those are who never played for the first team and look kes of Timothy fosuh mensah. Also gave rashford his debut

Shweini not good but what a player previously
Valdes on a free
Luke shaw who suffered a broken leg but arguably has been good.

Herrera won player of the season
blind was a good signing
Depay nearly ended up at Barca
Darmian began well
Di Maria was good
Falcao wasn't good for is or Chelsea but found his form after
Martial has gone down since but was good
Rojo started well
Romero arguably the best back up to arguably the one time best and wasn't he free
Shneiderlin highly rated at the time

Since them we know he wanted Kante, mane, milner (who people didn't want due to age but has done well at lfc) and mahrez

Spoke about Neymar and Hummel's and Ramos etc

Like I said, not one was unarguably a success. You've had to caveat each signing.

Shaw is the closest and he was a done deal before LvG arrived.

 

[m1tch]

The football under Van Gaal was truly dreadful to watch, so few chances created. The signings were erratic too, like he knew he didn't have to spend wisely. Hard to draw many positives from his time here.

 

[stevoc]

It's not though, as we have seen since we set up a transfer committee and finally modernised...most clubs a manager is a head coach as a priority and has a say on signing but isn't in control, some might be more influential than others (Pep you'd think has a lot of influence) whereas we know with Chelsea the manager has much less weight versus Granovskaia for some easy examples. On top of that our scouting team was generally thought if as poor, LVG said this directly, Woodward even made a statement admitting it and Mou then had a major revamp for the academy/scouting network. We used to have 12 scouts reporting to one Head scout and reading between the lines from what Woodward said ('it was more set up to say 'no') it sounds like we missed out on a lot of targets because of that.

To be honest mate I'm not aware of the ins and outs of United's scouting network and transfer policies now vs under Van Gaal. But to me it doesn't look like that much has changed, the manager makes a list of the players he wants. The club might agree/disagree or give alternatives the manager is happy with. The club then tries to sign them sometimes they succeed sometimes they don't.

Similar happened under Ferguson (at times) Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Solskjaer. I know supposedly we now have a modernised scouting network that assesses hundreds of players across Europe for potential targets in positions we need. But this system identified Wan Bissaka at £50m so I think the jury is still out.

 

[::sonny::]

Mourinho

He detected years ago all the viruses in the squad

 

[Theonas]

He most definitely was. Unfortunately, being a great coach is not enough to be successful at a big club. You also need management, man management, and also the right environment to help you work and maybe other qualities... From my side at least, it's difficult to know which was lacking and whether it was from his skill set or the environment around him; board, injuries, staff, ...

 

[sglowrider]

Van Gaal was the healthiest coach we have ever had at United other than Dave Sexton. I have never fallen asleep as much as I did watching LVG's United.

 

[Roane]

Like I said, not one was unarguably a success. You've had to caveat each signing.

Shaw is the closest and he was a done deal before LvG arrived.

If reports are to be believed Shaw is one of the ones highlighted by RR as not good enough for UTD, not the first time either.

And yes I did add caveats, with hindsight in mind. However I still say the signings were not as bad as people make out as they were made at the time. Even Rojo cane on the back of brilliant performances and actually started pretty well. Martial started well and came with a big reputation. Herrera was a success for me. Romero was a success. Blind was a success and formed a good partnership with Smalling. Di Maria was brilliant to start. Depay showed talent. Shweini was bought in for his expertise and leadership skills and there was no doubt he had the experience.

So yeah I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as I don't think the signings were bad at all.

 

[tomaldinho1]

To be honest mate I'm not aware of the ins and outs of United's scouting network and transfer policies now vs under Van Gaal. But to me it doesn't look like that much has changed, the manager makes a list of the players he wants. The club might agree/disagree or give alternatives the manager is happy with. The club then tries to sign them sometimes they succeed sometimes they don't.

Similar happened under Ferguson (at times) Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Solskjaer. I know supposedly we now have a modernised scouting network that assesses hundreds of players across Europe for potential targets in positions we need. But this system identified Wan Bissaka at £50m so I think the jury is still out.

We now have Bout, Murtough, Judge all assessing payers (Judge only from a commercial perspective it's worth adding) and the manager will have a veto on signings, as will Woodward/Arnold (again only on the commercial side) once it gets through the transfer committee. The jury is well and truly still out but I also think you have to allow them some leeway because they never really had a tactical style to match players with under Ole.

In layman's, we used to be player specific i.e. managers would ask for specific players by name whereas now we seem a bit more position specific, Ragnick will identify a type of player we need and then the scouting team will present some options. That for me is a far better way to recruit and allows for much more use of data (we also have some kind of bespoke database now, whatever that means!) rather than personal bias or pre formed opinions.

 

[cyril C]

Yeah he signed 13 players. Arguably 18 of you count those are who never played for the first team and look kes of Timothy fosuh mensah. Also gave rashford his debut

Shweini not good but what a player previously
Valdes on a free
Luke shaw who suffered a broken leg but arguably has been good.

Herrera won player of the season
blind was a good signing
Depay nearly ended up at Barca
Darmian began well
Di Maria was good
Falcao wasn't good for is or Chelsea but found his form after
Martial has gone down since but was good
Rojo started well
Romero arguably the best back up to arguably the one time best and wasn't he free
Shneiderlin highly rated at the time

Since them we know he wanted Kante, mane, milner (who people didn't want due to age but has done well at lfc) and mahrez

Spoke about Neymar and Hummel's and Ramos etc

If we operate like a European team and the manager has no say what so ever on player recruitment, then perhaps LVG was a good coach, possibly the most sophisticated. After taken into account of his recruitment record, which must be our WORST ever, then only Moyes is comparable, as the worst ever manager.

p.s. Blind is not a bad player, a decent LB and a good CB, if against striker not too strong, or not too fast. I still would not forget and forgive our loss to West Ham, a draw would have qualified ahead of City on CL.

 

[Josep Dowling]

He had a distinct philosophy but that was about it. The highs of dominating Liverpool at Anfield like we have never done before in recent years. But in the end winning games 1-0 with one shot on target was extremely dull and put me off watching United at the end of his tenure.

 

[Albin Johansson]

He had a distinct philosophy but that was about it. The highs of dominating Liverpool at Anfield like we have never done before in recent years. But in the end winning games 1-0 with one shot on target was extremely dull and put me off watching United at the end of his tenure.

I agree, we seemed to perform very well against the top sides during Van Gaal. Maybe with more time and new players we couldve challenged for real but I also remember some games as extraordinary booring to watch.

 

[Toshey]

Not all his signings were shit.
Herrera is the best midfielder we’ve had post Carrick. Blind was great. Shaw is capable of world class performances.

 

[berbatrick]

Also worth mentioning that his second season went backwards in terms of style. I can’t recall a single entertaining game, though my memory doesn’t recall all games either. It was good that we won the FA Cup but that really papered over the cracks

There were some good games. Mostly when Martial or Rashford livened it up. Very few.

Liverpool 3-1 (Martial's debut), Arsenal 3-2 (Rashford's PL debut), Everton 3-0 away (where he supposedly shouted at Herrera for scoring), and then I remember one outstanding team goal Carrick -> Mata -> Rooney -> Martial in a random 3-0 game. That's probably it.

I think the away derby (1-0 Rashford) was a good performance but could be wrong.

e - found the goal

Found the derby highlights. In the first 30 seconds, a CM gives the ball away and DDG saves with his feet.

 

[bringbackbebe]

In the 2015-16 season, we scored a total of 49 goals in the premier league. In comparison, we have 35 now in 21 games. Of course, we also only conceded 35 goals in the whole season and this helped us get some result with top teams. The football was painful. I wouldn't bring him anywhere near a 100m radius of Carrington.

 

[Lentwood]

I would say so, objectively speaking.

I had a season ticket for the whole LvG era and Jose Mourinho era. I'd say that whilst the football was frustrating at times under LvG, there was a definite plan, and when it came together we looked really, really good.

I have never seen a United team dominate at Anfield like we did under LvG and the back-to-back 4-2 and 3-0 victories over City and Spurs respectively were highlights. Also have to consider the number of Youth players van Gaal blooded. Yeah, some of them were arbitrarily thrown in at times, but at least the got a chance. Sometimes you don't know how good a player really is until you chuck them in at the deep-end.

On the other hand, I never felt like it was 'good' under Jose. Even the season we finished 2nd, it felt highly attritional and unsustainable. We won plenty of games by the odd goal, and never really looked in control of games. Plus, you always got the feeling that something was bubbling away under the surface with Jose. Certain players regressed and it felt like a large portion of the fanbase were just waiting for him to fail.

 

[Blackwidow]

Yes. He was clearly successful at implementing a style and philosophy.

Unfortunately, the style was boring and the philosophy antiquated and the football as a result was tedious and shite.

He probably would have needed other offensive players. I do not think the material in midfield and defense was so much worse than that what he found at Bayern some years before - and they system was not different either. We Bayernfans still credit him for the big changes that started a new team and we somehow still build on the same system despite the only player that is left from his time is Thomas Müller. But Heynckes and Guardiola built on that system and developed it further - and even if Ancelotti and Kovac did not and were backlashes - Flick and now Nagelsmann do, too.

 

[tomaldinho1]

He probably would have needed other offensive players. I do not think the material in midfield and defense was so much worse than that what he found at Bayern some years before - and they system was not different either. We Bayernfans still credit him for the big changes that started a new team and we somehow still build on the same system despite the only player that is left from his time is Thomas Müller. But Heynckes and Guardiola built on that system and developed it further - and even if Ancelotti and Kovac did not and were backlashes - Flick and now Nagelsmann do, too.

This is why it's such a mystery that we hired Mourinho. There was a short term contract with LVG of 3 years max. and a logical plan in place - get the team familiar with a high possession game, cycle out the older payers and then hire a young, highly rated coach to take us to the next level.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

We now have Bout, Murtough, Judge all assessing payers (Judge only from a commercial perspective it's worth adding) and the manager will have a veto on signings, as will Woodward/Arnold (again only on the commercial side) once it gets through the transfer committee. The jury is well and truly still out but I also think you have to allow them some leeway because they never really had a tactical style to match players with under Ole.

In layman's, we used to be player specific i.e. managers would ask for specific players by name whereas now we seem a bit more position specific, Ragnick will identify a type of player we need and then the scouting team will present some options. That for me is a far better way to recruit and allows for much more use of data (we also have some kind of bespoke database now, whatever that means!) rather than personal bias or pre formed opinions.

That’s a really good point about signings players based on data and less about bonds between managers and players. I do disagree with giving them leeway though, surely they have had enough good will? Our transfer record is atrocious.

It’s infuriating we can’t sign any good players unless they are completely proven and cost a ransom (Bruno, Varane, Sancho etc). Let’s be honest, these are FIFA players who anyone knows, the only scouting needed will be medical wise on if they suffer from injuries or might be prone to them in the future, the ability is not in question.

Who can you say they have scouted and signed that has been a good buy and developed into a better player? All the youngsters we get seem to be poor buys (AWB, Amad, Pelllestri).

 

[tomaldinho1]

That’s a really good point about signings players based on data and less about bonds between managers and players. I do disagree with giving them leeway though, surely they have had enough good will? Our transfer record is atrocious.

It’s infuriating we can’t sign any good players unless they are completely proven and cost a ransom (Bruno, Varane, Sancho etc). Let’s be honest, these are FIFA players who anyone knows, the only scouting needed will be medical wise on if they suffer from injuries or might be prone to them in the future, the ability is not in question.

Who can you say they have scouted and signed that has been a good buy and developed into a better player? All the youngsters we get seem to be poor buys (AWB, Amad, Pelllestri).

It's more that they haven't had a style to fit players into since they formed - I think you have to give them leeway because it seems everything was just so rudderless under Ole. I guess a lot depends on who the next manager is, I really hope it's someone who actually wants a long term project ad has a history of developing and improving players.

It's too soon to say on Amad and Pellestri and those are two good examples to track because those signings will be 100% coming from scouting recommendations only.

 

[lex talionis]

Van Gaal was a dinosaur by the time he arrived at Old Trafford. Everything about his management reeked of an inability to read circumstances, adapt to and overcome them.

He is best forgotten as a sad chapter in our club's history, although to be fair to what the OP might have been suggesting he could not be accused of the kind of incompetence that Moyes demonstrated.

 

[shamans]

Van Gaals spending was on par with pep with nothing to show for it

 

[Andycoleno9]

Did the most damage since SAF. But in terms of 'could you see his impact from the training ground on the pitch?', yes. Dire.

Moyes, Lvg and Jose together didn't do damage like Solskjaer did.

And to answer to op question; yes, Lvg was best coach.

 

[always_hoping]

Best coach for putting his watching supporters to sleep.

 

[Leftback99]

Moyes, Lvg and Jose together didn't do damage like Solskjaer did.

And to answer to op question; yes, Lvg was best coach.

Strange as you say our squad is as good as anyone in the league. Absolutely no one thought similar with the mess LVG left the squad in.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

It's more that they haven't had a style to fit players into since they formed - I think you have to give them leeway because it seems everything was just so rudderless under Ole. I guess a lot depends on who the next manager is, I really hope it's someone who actually wants a long term project ad has a history of developing and improving players.

It's too soon to say on Amad and Pellestri and those are two good examples to track because those signings will be 100% coming from scouting recommendations only.

Whilst I agree we have been buying players at random for no particular style and having an identity will really help us now. Even so, all of our players that we bought shouldn’t be completely useless? Maguire at 80m, you would expect at that price for the player to be good enough to fit into any system.

Yeah I don’t take any pleasure in writing off these young players but I think it’s safe to say they wont make it. As you said though, we haven’t had a structure/manager in place to develop them. It’s great to see Elenga flourishing under Ralf. So I suppose I can agree that the scouting dept deserves a slight bit of leeway! (But still no forgivness to the board!).

 

[Andycoleno9]

Strange as you say our squad is as good as anyone in the league. Absolutely no one thought similar with the mess LVG left the squad in.

Lvg said that he didn't got any of his A targets while Ole got every A target that he wanted. Except Pep there is no manager in recent history who was backed like Ole.
And yeah, i think that our squad is very good and that is why i am pissed on Ole. Because he left team which is totally uncoached and we will waste this season because of it.

Not that i am saying that LVG was great for us and that he was flawless. He wasn't of course. But he had best plan i think

 

[Gehrman]

Yes he had a style, but it was awfull. So many backpassess, not shots on target..

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Lvg said that he didn't got any of his A targets while Ole got every A target that he wanted. Except Pep there is no manager in recent history who was backed like Ole.
And yeah, i think that our squad is very good and that is why i am pissed on Ole. Because he left team which is totally uncoached and we will waste this season because of it.

Not that i am saying that LVG was great for us and that he was flawless. He wasn't of course. But he had best plan i think

Except Mourinho, Who wanted Fred and got Fred ahead of Guardiola. Wanted Sanchez, and got him ahead of Guardiola. Wanted Pogba and was given a chance to break the world transfer record to get a player he wanted - something Pep never had the luxury of getting.SO wrong again, because Pep definitely didn't get his A targets, unlike Mourinho.

 

[JPRouve]

The problem for Van Gaal is that his style relies on a particular type of player in the last third. A striker that can control and demand the ball in tight space and wingers/attacking midfielders that can beat their man and find the striker in tight space. If I was to make a basketball reference it's an half court offense. We didn't had those players outside of Di Maria and then an inconsistent Martial.
In a way it's the same story for Spain in the late 2010s, while both teams could dominate anyone, their needs were clear, obvious and not always available.

 

[Zed 101]

I think it is hard to judge TBH, all of the managers we have had post Fergie have been significantly hampered by players that they didn't want either being bought in or given ludicrous contracts so it has been impossible for them to fulfil their potential, woody said as much in his statement, they did not do well by the post SAF managers, in particular we have been screaming out for a decent defensive midfielder since Keane left, we had enough with Carrick and Fletcher to cope for a while but since it has been a mess.

Given more time and freedom would Moyes have succeeded?
Without poor signings, Di Maria and Sancho would Van Gaal have brought in more suitable players?
Without the scourge that is Pogba, and if he had been allowed to sign Maquire would Mourinho still be here?
Without Ronaldo unsettling things, and the unnecessary addition of Sancho would Solskjaer still have the job?

In fairness I would say out of all of the managers we have had since SAF I have enjoyed (for the main part) the time under Solskjaer the most, the style of play and jettisoning of players, and surely that is what it comes down to how much you enjoy watching your team, you can say Mourinho won a trophy, but really was it fun to watch? Van Gaal got us keeping 80+ % possession but I was interminably dull, Moyes is the unknown for me he lost the dressing room and that was it, if he had come in later not straight after SAF I think it would have been different for him, not saying he would have done better just that it is very hard to judge Moyes he was a sacrificial lamb.

I think also in fairness to Solskjaer it has to be said that Rangnick is still experiencing the same difficulties that he did, I think the club had no options but to ditch Solskjaer but that clearly hasn't resolved things, I also think that Solskjaer exceeded his capabilities and that we needed to move on so not bemoaning his sacking.

We have said many times there is a lot more needs fixing at Utd than the manager and the odd player.

 

[Leftback99]

Lvg said that he didn't got any of his A targets while Ole got every A target that he wanted. Except Pep there is no manager in recent history who was backed like Ole.
And yeah, i think that our squad is very good and that is why i am pissed on Ole. Because he left team which is totally uncoached and we will waste this season because of it.

Not that i am saying that LVG was great for us and that he was flawless. He wasn't of course. But he had best plan i think

Any manager can say things like that after the event which no one will come out to prove otherwise. Fact is he wasted a fortune at a time when players were far cheaper, his sales were just as bad.

The Dutch national manager who presumably thought signing Rojo was better than Van Dijk who went for £15m at the time, vetoed signing Kroos by some reports, he was clueless.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Whilst I agree we have been buying players at random for no particular style and having an identity will really help us now. Even so, all of our players that we bought shouldn’t be completely useless? Maguire at 80m, you would expect at that price for the player to be good enough to fit into any system.

Yeah I don’t take any pleasure in writing off these young players but I think it’s safe to say they wont make it. As you said though, we haven’t had a structure/manager in place to develop them. It’s great to see Elenga flourishing under Ralf. So I suppose I can agree that the scouting dept deserves a slight bit of leeway! (But still no forgivness to the board!).

That's fair and definitely no sympathy for the board! Also bear in mind Ragnick isn't really considered a top coach, he can coach and has a good eye for younger players who can make it but it's not really his strength. I am optimistic many of the players the caf thinks are essentially Sunday league footballer who somehow got into United (Maguire, AWB etc.) will return to form and start to push for 1st team berths again now the media frenzy seems to be settling down a bit (which I think is down to Ragnick just being super open and honest in interviews which doesn't really give journos a whole lot to play with).