Was Moyes really our first choice to replace Ferguson?

sunama

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I think if Moyes wasn't anything other than the very last option, some serious questions need to be asked and answered by the people who appointed him.
The real choker was when Mourinho was passed over, in favour of Moyes. That really was icing on the cake.
It was as if the directors had an option of a guaranteed league title. But they said, "no". We don't want that.
Chelsea took advantage and of course, won the league this year.
 

Henrik Larsson

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Of course he wasn't the bloody chosen one. The club had managers above him on the shortlist but none of them were available.
Exactly. From all kinds of angles, Moyes being first choice doesn't make sense. Mourinho had a lot of reasons to choose Chelsea over us, and very few reasons to choose United over Chelsea. But him crying salty tears after being turned down by his ultimate dream club has much more drama to it, I'll give them that.

And from a business point of view, appointing Moyes makes even less sense. The Glazer family are in it for the money and we're talking about one of their most valuable assets, with Manchester United being worth billions. There's literally not an adviser or specialist in the world who would tell them that it would be a good idea to appoint someone who's never won a trophy and had no experience at the top level over a very experienced serial winner. Why on earth would they take that gamble?

Reading on the caf about Sir Bobby and other conspiracy theories was enjoyable though. But of course in reality there's no way they would let Bobby Charlton's sentiments get in the way when there's so much money involved, ffs :lol:
 

sunama

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...probably just hoping he would maintain top four and pave the ay for the next manager to come in and take United on.
That argument wouldn't work, though.
If Moyes got top 4 last year, he'd have stayed.
So if he stays and we keep getting top 4s, they have a problem on their hands with a manager who is doing "ok".
If a top name manager became available last Summer, for example and Moyes got top 4, there's no way that they would fire Moyes to replace him with a top manager.
Moyes was genuinely believed to be the chosen one. They wanted him to stay for the long term. They wanted him to win everything.
Notice that when Moyes was fired, Fergie was left completely out of the loop. And when LVG was hired, Fergie was once again out of the loop.
They realised Fergie was a great manager, but was terrible at searching for a successor - I think they realised this.
[they = the powers that be, who decide who gets the job]
 

Ducklegs

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No I don't buy any of it.

They were briefing and dropping hints and pushing Moyes as the replacement for at least 12 months before hand.
 

sunama

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And from a business point of view, appointing Moyes makes even less sense. The Glazer family are in it for the money and we're talking about one of their most valuable assets, with Manchester United being worth billions. There's literally not an adviser or specialist in the world who would tell them that it would be a good idea to appoint someone who's never won a trophy and had no experience at the top level over a very experienced serial winner.
Agreed.

Why on earth would they take that gamble?
Because Fergie, who is the trusted one, who knows all there is to know about football, is telling them to go for Moyes - this is your man. He will continue with the traditions of the club. Hire Moyes.

As I wrote above though, Fergie was completely left out of the loop, when Moyes was fired and LVG was fired. Once bitten, twice shy.
 

mu77

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terrible choice - all those involved should be removed from any decision making in the future unless it's their departure from the club.
 

MZX7

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Moyes: was horrible.

Pep: is world class but I've recently started disliking his 'supposed' rifts with certain Bayern players...if that were true.

Mourinho: Maybe we would have won a trophy or two but I'd never want this guy's style of football anywhere around OT. I would want a title winning squad to play like a title winning squad. I want the great OT culture of blooding young talent to continue. Mourinho may look good on paper when you consider short term. But he was never a man to leave behind a legacy at a club...

Ancelotti: Was rightly the first choice. Great manager and very good with people management. No Mourinho like drama or Pep like disputes.

At the end of the day though, I'm glad we now have Louis Van Gaal. And I really hope he stays for more than 3 years so that we can enjoy Manchester United and it remains a club of stature long after he's gone. He's the right man for us.

And no, I don't think the next manager should be Giggs. Giggs should probably prove himself at a lesser club. Anyone wanting a job at this great club better earn it first.
 

Rood

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I was referring more to Charlton supposedly wanting a British manager, as opposed to Jose being a dick.
Charlton should have never been given a vote let alone be able to put a veto on anything. I think this is what happened, the choice was between Mourinho and Moyes in the end and Charlton wouldn't have allowed Jose here.
Charlton is the one credited with picking Fergie so it is not a surprise that he was involved next time around. Also not a surpirse that he would favour sticking with UK manager, we had never had a foreign manager before - I dont agree with it but I can see the reasoning.


Think some people are dodging the question here... I wanted to get a consensus on whether we believe Moyes was genuinely first choice or we got stuck with him because the big names turned us down? Based on the evidence in the OP.
I dont think anyone turned us down - I gave my theory on what happened, we were too late for Pep/Ancelloti and Jose was never offered it.
 

sajeev

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Moyes was genuinely believed to be the chosen one. They wanted him to stay for the long term. They wanted him to win everything.
Notice that when Moyes was fired, Fergie was left completely out of the loop. And when LVG was hired, Fergie was once again out of the loop.
They realised Fergie was a great manager, but was terrible at searching for a successor - I think they realised this.
[they = the powers that be, who decide who gets the job]
how do you know this? you could very visibly see Fergie giving up on Moyes some time before he was sacked
 

mu77

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Moyes: was horrible.

Mourinho: Maybe we would have won a trophy or two but I'd never want this guy's style of football anywhere around OT. I would want a title winning squad to play like a title winning squad. I want the great OT culture of blooding young talent to continue. Mourinho may look good on paper when you consider short term. But he was never a man to leave behind a legacy at a club...

jose is organized and heartless. would have been perfect in transition. LVG isn't exactly playing "united" football. blooding young talent is fine but not when they're shit and this season it was done due to injury more than anything. 3 yrs is what we'll get from LVG and if jose was signed instead of the ship wreak that was moyes , we'd be winning things now.
 

Ringo 07

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Moyes is a decent manager for mid table teams. He is very good at making them hard to beat. But his limitations as a manager proved disastrous at Man Utd. Moyes bottled it and didn't have the balls to try and play football and opted for the endless cautious crosses nonsense. He was a dead man walking long before he was sacked. Should have been sacked at Christmas when it was obvious he had no idea how to run a big club. Man Utd would have been much better taking a risk on a mid table manager with no winning record but at least who had a track record of playing nice football such as Michael Laudrup, Roberto Martinez, Pochettino etc as opposed to going for the type of mid table manager whose main tactic is to make his teams hard to beat while trying to nick a goal on the counter through a cross or a set piece such as Moyes, Pulis, Allardyce etc
 

Rood

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That argument wouldn't work, though.
If Moyes got top 4 last year, he'd have stayed.
So if he stays and we keep getting top 4s, they have a problem on their hands with a manager who is doing "ok".
If a top name manager became available last Summer, for example and Moyes got top 4, there's no way that they would fire Moyes to replace him with a top manager.
Moyes was genuinely believed to be the chosen one. They wanted him to stay for the long term. They wanted him to win everything.
Notice that when Moyes was fired, Fergie was left completely out of the loop. And when LVG was hired, Fergie was once again out of the loop.
They realised Fergie was a great manager, but was terrible at searching for a successor - I think they realised this.
[they = the powers that be, who decide who gets the job]
Not true in the slightest
 

Xaviesta

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Charlton is the one credited with picking Fergie so it is not a surprise that he was involved next time around. Also not a surpirse that he would favour sticking with UK manager, we had never had a foreign manager before - I dont agree with it but I can see the reasoning.
What do you think Charlton's reasoning might have been? Stability, Loyalty etc?
 

prarek

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So everybody rejected us.. riiiight. I highly doubt that.
 

MZX7

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jose is organized and heartless. would have been perfect in transition. LVG isn't exactly playing "united" football. blooding young talent is fine but not when they're shit and this season it was done due to injury more than anything. 3 yrs is what we'll get from LVG and if jose was signed instead of the ship wreak that was moyes , we'd be winning things now.
I never said he's playing United football. But, we're definitely playing exciting football...al though it was in spurts this season...winning is important...but, doing it right brings immense joy with it. I'm sure we'll win under LvG and we'll do it with style...
 

jeff_goldblum

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I think Moyes gets too much stick. I don't think he was a bad tactician and I don't agree with many of the accusations that were leveled at him - his ultimate problem was his lack of aura. He wasn't particularly considered to be a great manager before he came, and he didn't have the charisma or the personality to motivate big name players or to settle the nerves of fans. In an ideal world players would try their hardest regardless, but we don't live in that world and a top manager needs to be able to win over his players and get the extra 10% out of them. Fergie could do that, and it looks like Van Gaal can too (with the exception of the odd player who seems to absolutely despise him).

Possibly the clearest example of Moyes' primary failing was the whole 'he asked Rio to play like Jagielka' debacle. I imagine in reality what happened was that Moyes wanted to set the team up to defend in a certain way and used clips of his Everton side to demonstrate that. It's an entirely fair thing to do in theory and I'm sure a lot of managers do the same when they switch clubs, but a more savvy manager would know that big-name, experienced players might not respond well to being compared to lesser players and shown clips of demonstrably worse teams. Obviously Rio's attitude wasn't good and he comes off as quite arrogant from that episode imo, but a more charismatic figure with a greater reputation than Moyes probably could have gotten away with it, and a better man-manager probably would have anticipated the reaction and found a different way to get his point across.
 

mu77

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Possibly the clearest example of Moyes' primary failing was the whole 'he asked Rio to play like Jagielka' debacle. I imagine in reality what happened was that Moyes wanted to set the team up to defend in a certain way and used clips of his Everton side to demonstrate that. It's an entirely fair thing to do in theory and I'm sure a lot of managers do the same when they switch clubs, but a more savvy manager would know that big-name, experienced players might not respond well to being compared to lesser players and shown clips of demonstrably worse teams. Obviously Rio's attitude wasn't good and he comes off as quite arrogant from that episode imo, but a more charismatic figure with a greater reputation than Moyes probably could have gotten away with it, and a better man-manager probably would have anticipated the reaction and found a different way to get his point across.
he was not right for the job , but yes foot in mouth disease hit him hard. he said he'd need 5-6 WC players to compete , you don't say that even if it's true. keeping RVP on the pitch whilst injured and saying the press would have killed him if he took him off. the players knew early doors he was shit and not up for it.
second point , it is if you're managing a u-19 team. not champions. lastly , they wouldn't do it because they would know it would be met with a feck off attitude. i always think of tough times and how a manager can change things at half and i laugh when i think of this mook and the glares he must have got in the changing room after a gem like this "go out and play like evertonians"
 

Rood

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What do you think Charlton's reasoning might have been? Stability, Loyalty etc?
Yes those kind of things - history and tradition of the club as well with focus on youth etc. Clearly he made negative comments about Jose and I think he felt a character like that is not the type of person you want representing the club.
 

jeff_goldblum

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he was not right for the job , but yes foot in mouth disease hit him hard. he said he'd need 5-6 WC players to compete , you don't say that even if it's true. keeping RVP on the pitch whilst injured and saying the press would have killed him if he took him off. the players knew early doors he was shit and not up for it.
second point , it is if you're managing a u-19 team. not champions. lastly , they wouldn't do it because they would know it would be met with a feck off attitude. i always think of tough times and how a manager can change things at half and i laugh when i think of this mook and the glares he must have got in the changing room after a gem like this "go out and play like evertonians"
I don't think you've particularly disagreed with anything I've said there, I made all the bolded points in my post when I said

'a more savvy manager would know that big-name, experienced players might not respond well to being compared to lesser players and shown clips of a demonstrably worse team'

and

'a better man-manager probably would have anticipated the reaction and found a different way to get his point across.'
 

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The cosmic chosen one was Mourinho. The Fergie chosen one was Moyes. Big, big mistake.
 

Red Dreams

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no way would Moyes have been appointed if not for Fergie...

he must have seen something of himself in Moyes....reminded me of a reporter asking Lennon what made the Beatles the succes they were. He said if he knew that they would get 4 guys to form a band and manage them....

the board simply should have gone for Maurinho. I still think he will be the next manager.
 

mu77

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I don't think you've particularly disagreed with anything I've said there, I made all the bolded points in my post when I said

'a more savvy manager would know that big-name, experienced players might not respond well to being compared to lesser players and shown clips of a demonstrably worse team'

and

'a better man-manager probably would have anticipated the reaction and found a different way to get his point across.'
dead on - 100% agree. it's what i'd show my u19's but ffs it rio , evra and vidic. it's actually funny from my perspective. ffs jags and co v them 3. moyes was shattered at the end.
 

Hernandez - BFA

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Of course he wasn't The Chosen One. That tag would imply a positive outcome. Last season was not positive.
 

Needham

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Simply don't believe Mourinho wouldn't have taken the United job if it were at all an option. Chelsea - Manchester United. There is still no comparison with regard to history and stature, and Mourinho wants to be a historical star working at the very top.
 

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Charlton should have never been given a vote let alone be able to put a veto on anything. I think this is what happened, the choice was between Mourinho and Moyes in the end and Charlton wouldn't have allowed Jose here.
This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this forum. Sir Bobby is the heart and conscience of this club, and for better or for worse, his guidance and input helps preserve the spirit of Manchester United.

Mourinho would have won more matches as a manager, but if Charlton felt he was not the right kind of man to be the figurehead of the club, then we have to accept that he knows far better than us what is best.

I have nothing but respect for his decision against Mourinho. Sir Bobby stayed true to his principles knowing that full well he chose a more difficult path. Some things are more important to him than winning. We could all learn from a man like that.
 

sullydnl

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Even if he wasn't our first choice he was still way further up the list than he should have been.
 

Ricardo de la Vega

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Moyes was just the last of the Lidl style of signings which contributed greatly to turn us from CL champions to 7th place in the EPL in just less than a decade.
Yep. The annoying thing is - we should have known better. Ferguson wrote about it in his latest book - the decline of Liverpool when they started buying lesser players - the lidl standard if you will. That's what this guff about there being "no value in the market" meant when we started refusing to pay over the odds for top talent.
 

Señor

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Yes, he was the chosen one. I see no other explanation as to why we gave him a SIX year contract.
 

SonnyTheHaloPro

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This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this forum. Sir Bobby is the heart and conscience of this club, and for better or for worse, his guidance and input helps preserve the spirit of Manchester United.

Mourinho would have won more matches as a manager, but if Charlton felt he was not the right kind of man to be the figurehead of the club, then we have to accept that he knows far better than us what is best.

I have nothing but respect for his decision against Mourinho. Sir Bobby stayed true to his principles knowing that full well he chose a more difficult path. Some things are more important to him than winning. We could all learn from a man like that.
It's not ridiculous at all, you make it sound like Charlton is a omnipresent all knowing superhuman. If what is said is true then he made a ridiculously stupid mistake and his judgement can't be very good at all.
 

Oneunited26

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This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this forum. Sir Bobby is the heart and conscience of this club, and for better or for worse, his guidance and input helps preserve the spirit of Manchester United.

Mourinho would have won more matches as a manager, but if Charlton felt he was not the right kind of man to be the figurehead of the club, then we have to accept that he knows far better than us what is best.

I have nothing but respect for his decision against Mourinho. Sir Bobby stayed true to his principles knowing that full well he chose a more difficult path. Some things are more important to him than winning. We could all learn from a man like that.
hmmmm, the boards decision and they're job is to appoint a manager that does win more matches, and ultimately that wins us trophy's and we earn more money to attract better players, that is how the wheel keeps moving. Let's not make it out that this club has this magic sentimentality fairy tail about themselves, thinking we are above any normal club by appointing a certain type of manager which Moyes was garbage, its dangerous management if board members think like that, and leads to bankruptcy. I am sorry, but when board members put sentimentality over what the true goal is when you put it in that context, that is when the board members should not be part of the club. When you run a business, you got to be ruthless and make the decisions to keep this business winning, the club's job is not to make friends and be about principles. This sentimentality could easily see us become very mediocre, if the club wants to be a major european powerhouse, those principles must be thrown out the window. Its not 1955 and 1995, its 2015 and come this summer the club and manager must act even more ruthless. 2013/14 season was a wake up call, to get out of the past and get in line with the rest of the clubs, that is reality of modern football. Sentimentality is what can bankrupt a club, and I do not want board members having that mentality, they are wolves of wallstreet and that is their job to be ruthless, we have no time for the weak in a boardroom or they are in the wrong job
 

Americano

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It's not ridiculous at all, you make it sound like Charlton is a omnipresent all knowing superhuman. If what is said is true then he made a ridiculously stupid mistake and his judgement can't be very good at all.
I am simply saying that my respect for his opinion of what is best for the club is far greater than my desire for Mourinho to be the manager.

Sir Bobby made his decision based on his beliefs and principles. We should be grateful to have such a man at the club.
 

mu77

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I am simply saying that my respect for his opinion of what is best for the club is far greater than my desire for Mourinho to be the manager.

Sir Bobby made his decision based on his beliefs and principles. We should be grateful to have such a man at the club.
he's lost mine in resepts to ever picking someone to represent the club. moyes was a very expensive error and most figureheads like sir bobby are just that , figureheads , they don't get involved with picking a manager.
 

Amir

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Possibly the clearest example of Moyes' primary failing was the whole 'he asked Rio to play like Jagielka' debacle. I imagine in reality what happened was that Moyes wanted to set the team up to defend in a certain way and used clips of his Everton side to demonstrate that. It's an entirely fair thing to do in theory and I'm sure a lot of managers do the same when they switch clubs, but a more savvy manager would know that big-name, experienced players might not respond well to being compared to lesser players and shown clips of demonstrably worse teams. Obviously Rio's attitude wasn't good and he comes off as quite arrogant from that episode imo, but a more charismatic figure with a greater reputation than Moyes probably could have gotten away with it, and a better man-manager probably would have anticipated the reaction and found a different way to get his point across.
It's probably a little weird for a footballer to see a manager who seem so wide-eyed. For a while at least, Moyes looked astound at the size of the club and the way we do things. Like taking the players for a run on the beach in Sydney only to be mobbed by locals. Or commenting after the 4-1 win at Swansea on the opening day about how surprisingly relaxed the dressing room was and players telling him that 'that's the way it is here'.

A manager can come into a bigger club and settle in fine, but Moyes wasn't just a novice, he was almost screaming 'I'm a novice'. Not surprising the players struggled to live with that.
 

devilish

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I was one of the earliest anti Moyes supporters and the reason to that were various. First of all I saw United as a ticking time bomb. The old guard was exceptional however it was old and the players brought in was nowhere near in terms of quality. SAF's ability in keeping it in shape was an act of brilliance, possibly the biggest masterpiece in terms of management he had ever did. Someone so inexperienced in winning as Moyes would never going to be able to do so. Secondly complacency had set in deep within the club. A substantial number of players were kept not because of their present performance but because of their past achievements or because they are 'fun'. Also a number of players had been here, they grew old in the club and despite their age they weren't being properly challenged (ex Rio and Vidic). That tend to inflate egos and give players the impression that maybe, they are irreplaceable. Complacency had set in not just over the first team but also in the reserves and coaching team. Chief scouts were employed not because of their CV or ability in spotting talent but because they are 'family' and youth players were used as an incentives for certain clubs to employ certain people only to for the plug to be pulled once those people aren't employed anymore. That's certainly not the way you manage a club.

Some say that SAF went to 'skint' mode because he wanted to leave load of cash for his successor to spend. I think that insults the great man's intelligence. First of all, no manager would be able to replace half a squad and win at the same time. Often such strategy is the prelude to a disaster (ex Spurs aftermath to selling Bale or Liverpool this season). Also it gives the impression that SAF didn't cared enough for leaving a solid side behind or didn't believed in his ability in leaving a side which can adapt to a quality manager new ideas. In both cases its seriously not the case. I accused SAF of nepotism in a numerous occasions and I stick to it. However I have absolutely no doubt that he loved this club and wanted to leave this team in the best shape possible. Anyway even if someone do believe that, well, our transfer market suggest otherwise. DDG, Smalling, Jones, Zaha, Powell, Ando, Kagawa, the Da Silva twins, Hernandez....this was a man who was busy building the foundations for a next great side. It turned out that for the first time in his magnificent career (which saw the building up of at least 3 great sides, a record in football) the man's plan for the 4th great side well....failed.

So what went wrong? Well there's a number of things. Some players let him down (Ando and Cleverley for example), others vanished in the treatment room (the Da Silva twins and Fletcher) never to appear again and we also had a share of bad buys. However the root of the problem was that the old man was getting too emotional and too stubborn for leading the monster he created. The man was closing an eye as geniuses like Kershaw and Harrison were retiring and being replaced them with well......showmen (Meulesteen), yes men and family. Thats kind of dangerous especially at a time when the man was growing old and couldn't oversee everything as he used to. Such attitude was happening also on the pitch. There's no way a young and hungry SAF would have allowed Ando to produce absolutely nothing for half a decade and still remain to the club. He would have kicked his fat ass out of the club.

Stubborness was the second problem I've mentioned. Its kind of unfair because in many ways SAF was right to be stubborn. For example its ridiculous how agents had grew so powerful in football and young players demand to be played. However that's football today, you either adapt or you will lose opportunities, some of which too great to miss (Hazard, Pogba etc). I shiver at the thought of what United would have been with players like that in the team.

Its only fair to end up with Moyes as this is his thread. As said the man was not good enough, the final product of a flawed and outdated strategy which brought us into this sorry state. I still remember how many of us laughed at him when he blamed the quality of the squad for United's dip in quality. However the fact that we were only able to nick the 4th place despite spending over 100m and bringing one of the finest managers in the world, kinds of vindicate him. Not to forget other minor issues like Rio/Vidic failing badly at QPR/Inter and the defense/midfield close to a major revamp.
 

Sereques

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The speed at which Moyes was hired showed he was the first choice. If others were interviewed, it would have taken longer. Moyes was hired because he's Scottish and he came from an area where people "supposedly" work hard and we paid the price for that stupid logic.
 

Sarni

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This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this forum. Sir Bobby is the heart and conscience of this club, and for better or for worse, his guidance and input helps preserve the spirit of Manchester United.

Mourinho would have won more matches as a manager, but if Charlton felt he was not the right kind of man to be the figurehead of the club, then we have to accept that he knows far better than us what is best.

I have nothing but respect for his decision against Mourinho. Sir Bobby stayed true to his principles knowing that full well he chose a more difficult path. Some things are more important to him than winning. We could all learn from a man like that.
I don't think football decisions should be made based on romance and certainly not when you end up appointing David Moyes.
 

Amir

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I don't think football decisions should be made based on romance and certainly not when you end up appointing David Moyes.
But Fergie's about the closest thing to god at this club, and with the top hierarchy at United having next to no clue about football, it made sense to go with whatever Fergie said. Unfortunately it was the older and more conservative version of Fergie. That's not going to happen again.
 

saivet

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So everybody rejected us.. riiiight. I highly doubt that.
Possibly, though it may just have been the timing with it all happening too late. Pep had signed for Bayern, Carlo was said to have already verbally agreed to take over R. Madrid and the same case may have been seen for Mourinho with Chelsea.