Was Sir Alex a tactical dinosaur? I Poll Added

Was Sir Alex a tactical dinosaur?


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Ødegaard

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When you base your tactics around the players you have, and not the players around your tactic it shows that you are extremely versatile.
Add that to the insane amounts of trophies he has hauled in over the years, and he is nothing but a master of tactics.
 

kafta

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He drilled winning into his players better than anyone, but that alone wouldn't be enough. He was a master tactician, and had his own "philosophy", and almost always came out on top.
 

acnumber9

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Anyone who plays or played 4-4-2 is a dinosaur. Did we not get the memo?
 

GloryHunter07

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People tend to fixate on the big games, but he was excellent at getting it right against the rest of the league.

I think Fergie strength (one of many) was that he kept things simple and focused on tempo rather than getting bogged down in tactical minutiae
 

ManUnitedCanuck

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The thing about Fergie's tactics, was that sometimes he just put his players out against "lesser" sides and knew his 11 were better than the opposing 11, so he let them play and win the game based on their skill level. That may mean giving up goals but he was confident we'd score more at times.

I do seem to recall him mention something about Querioz helping with tactics and preparation for European matches.

But typically we played our style of football and didn't allow the opposition to dictate how we'd set out. Nearer the end in Europe we'd set up differently and play on the counter against some of the tougher opposition.
 

United22

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We might have moaned about the football on here during his time, but he definitely could not have been a dinosaur if he was winning titles year in year out. I can't believe we all moaned about the tactics on here in the 12/13 season even though it was evident that we had the PL trophy secure pretty early on in the year. How I'd kill for those times
 

United22

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This.

And also to add to the above and this might be quite an unpopular opinion here but I believe Queiroz expertise helped Fergie get up a level tactically in Europe. And if he'd been around the time of our 2 CL finals against Barca I believe we'd have won atleast one of them.
Imo we had no chance in 2011 because our team was simply not good enough to go toe to toe with Barcelona. The best we could have done is park the bus against them. On the other hand we got it all wrong in 2009 and on another day with a fit Fletcher and better tactics we should have won it. Chelsea managed to put up a good performance against them in the semis (better than we did in the final)
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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I think he was an innovator. He developped a very effective well organized counter attacking style. The movement was excellent, the lines moved away and together like an accordion without hesitance.

But since then attacking and/or possession based football got more rewarding because of rule changes. The game has speeded up so players had less time to think and there was more need for instructions and patterns, and of course defenses started to react and anticipate. In the 2000's there became more and more matches where they lost the initiative and kept chasing the ball without getting it, and they looked not only vulnerable to free flowing possession football, but also lesser teams could have a go at a result. I think a magnificent Ronaldo in 2008 masked that United had become a club on the decline.

So I think United should take this chance to work in it's tradition of innovation and advanced tactics and training methods.
 

Shamwow

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He was a tactical dinosaur, a fecking bad ass T-Rex that devoured all who dared face him.
 

Walrus

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SAF was a master at many things - dealing with the press, motivating his players, building and transitioning great team after great team. Tactics however, were never his strongest suit. To say he was a dinosaur is a bit harsh, and pretty stupid given the amount of success the man enjoyed, but I would never list tactics as a major strength of Fergie.
 

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This myth that SAF became the best manager of all time through sheer force of will alone is one of the daftest things. Like, ever.

The man was highly intelligent and knew football inside out.
 

Black Adder

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He adopted to game better than any other manager ever, football changed to much over the years and yet he was always on the top of his game.

Other than brilliant man managment he also knew how to make most of his team not just individual players, if that's not tactic then what is?

You can't be successful for so long if you didn't know how to make your team work on the pitch, end of story.
 

Bwuk

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I voted option C.

His biggest strength was his man management, and ability to build a strong infrastructure around him. He build a great back room staff.

If Moyes had came in and kept the staff, and basically said to everyone, as you were lads, I believe we'd of at least challenged for the league.
 

RedStarUnited

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We might have moaned about the football on here during his time, but he definitely could not have been a dinosaur if he was winning titles year in year out. I can't believe we all moaned about the tactics on here in the 12/13 season even though it was evident that we had the PL trophy secure pretty early on in the year. How I'd kill for those times
We moaned because - We were being outplayed in the majority of the early matches and only winning them through RVP's brilliance. If anything, it foreshadowed what was to come when Fergy left/RVP waned and nobody else picked up the tab.
 

FujiVice

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Fergie was a dinosaur. A T.Rex. He crushed everything around him.
 

Mciahel Goodman

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Simeone played Arda and koke as wingers, its 442 but its utilizing AM/CMs in the 'wide' positions rather than 2 true wingers.
Yeah, but if you watch Atletico (particularly the season they won La Liga) you'll see them compactly shaped into a solid 442. Koke and Turan aren't natural wingers, but they played in that position, perhaps preferring to cut inside more than go past a player.

Anyway, as for the Fergie is a tactical dinosaur thing... it's a load of shite. He finished his career with a PL title and got robbed in a CL quarter final. He relied on his assistants, but knowing how to delegate doesn't diminish an appreciation and knowledge for tactical awareness. He still had to OK the plans his assistants came up with, often changing them himself, obviously.
 

RU Devil

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By the end, was very tactically astute. His use of players that seemed a bit limited or not exactly made for a position was at times uncanny.
 

Guy

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Not sure if has been posted yet, but Michael Cox has a pretty good piece on the general tactics adopted by Ferguon in our last Champions League-winning side.

Ferguson may not have been on the level of Mourinho or Guardiola, where they are capable of making detailed, large-scale tactical changes even a few minutes into the game, but he does seem to be capable to keeping with the times and being very flexible in his approach with the squad he assembled over time.
 

NK86

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He was brilliant tactically. Just because he didn't go for the 4-3-3 as often and played with two wide players did not make him a tactical novice in the modern era.
 

Mindhunter

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He was brilliant tactically. Just because he didn't go for the 4-3-3 as often and played with two wide players did not make him a tactical novice in the modern era.
Exactly, every manager has his/her way of playing the game. That's what makes them different.

In Fergie's case, it was the use of wing play. He absolutely loved the sight of a wide fast player, running down the touchline and putting an intelligent ball in. However, he was intelligent enough to realize when such a player developed skills that would also enable him to play centrally. In Ronaldo's case, Fergie gave him complete freedom to roam around the field even though he often started in the RW role.
 

ravelston

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Anyone who plays or played 4-4-2 is a dinosaur. Did we not get the memo?
He played 4-2-3-1 for at least his last 3 seasons. Pretty advanced! On the other hand, when he switched Park and Giggs at half time in the CL final I thought he had totally lost the thread. And there was quite a lot of other strangeness over the last few seasons. I always put it down to his not having a good sounding board who could push back at him - which, I guess, amounts to a swingeing condemnation of Phelan, et al.
 

Minimalist

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He's far from the best that football has seen from a tactical perspective and I wish most United supporters would acknowledge that. That said, he was good enough and he always, very critically, surrounded himself with good coaches.

United should have won at least another two UCL under Ferguson and besides 'bad luck' I'd say it was a mixture of poor tactics/strategy in matches and poor recruitment in certain areas.

Tactics certainly were down the list of his priorities.

Then again, why would he prioritise it when he's arguably the best pseudo-psychologist the game has ever seen? That alone won him most of his trophies.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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He had his beliefs and principles and he knew exactly what kind of football he wanted his teams to play on a football pitch but he wasn't as dogmatic as some think. He wouldn't have maintained at the top of the game for thirty years, if he couldn't evolve and adapt to the changes of modern football. It's true that he preferred a more direct approach, he set up his teams to either exploit the spaces behind the opposition defenses with raw pace or use overloads and quick switch plays in the final third to open spaces on the wings. But he didn't always deploy two banks of four and two out and out forwards on the pitch in every single game throughout his career.

It's true that his first United sides, up until the Treble, used the "British 4-4-2" which focused on pacey wingers and counter attacking tactics as their primary system. We had options like Giggs, Sharpe and Kanchelskis on the wings, players who not only were pacey but most importantly could finish moves and create chances while running with the ball. But the tactics weren't rigid, Ferguson was one of the first managers to experiment with inverted wingers (both Sharpe and Giggs were used on the right wing), he often used one forward (or sometimes a winger) a bit deeper in order to disrupt the opposition's deep lying play maker, he took the best out of Cantona by giving him free license to influence our game, he even used a forward like McClair in the midfield in order to maximize our attacking options. Sometimes it looked like a 4-4-2, some others like a 4-4-1-1 and occasionally like a 4-2-3-1.

The first time he decided to move away from this 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) was when he signed Veron back in the summer of 2001. The reasons for that change have been discussed in many threads on this forum. There was a sense that, despite the 1999 season, United were under achieving in Europe. The direct, high tempo approach wasn't fruitful against teams like Bayern Munich or Real Madrid which could match or surpass our quality on the pitch and hit us effectively on the counter. There was also a turn towards tactics which favored a three man midfield that created numerical advantage in the central areas against the 4-4-2. The class of '92 reached its peak from 1999 to 2001 but in the early years of the United-Arsenal rivalry, since Wenger implemented his 4-2-3-1, Arsenal had the upper hand whenever the two teams met. Most people remember Giggsy's wonder goal in the FA Cup replay or the 6-1 (against a rather weak Arsenal side that day) but these are two of our three wins (the third was at Highbury in 2001 with Keane's double) in 11 games against Arsenal from 1998 to 2001.

What hasn't been discussed thoroughly though is the boldness of Ferguson's decision. It takes guts to break up the midfield of Beckham-Keane-Scholes-Giggs, a midfield that had dominated the PL and had won three consecutive league titles. The basic idea was that Veron would operate as a deep lying play maker and Scholes would play off RvP and become a third midfielder whenever that was necessary. The results were catastrophic in England. Arsenal walked the league and United finished third for the first time since 1991-92. Strangely enough that team almost made it to the CL final that season. Next season United won the PL and performed much better (15 wins and only 3 draws in the last 18 league games), Scholes had one of the best seasons of his entire career in his new role.

Next season Veron was sold to Chelsea but Ferguson didn't gave up on his experiments. In 2003-04 Phil Neville was often used next to Keane in the midfield and when Rooney arrived to OT in 2005, he and Giggs often drifted infield with Scholes dropping deeper in what could be described as a very loose 4-3-3.

The introduction of Carrick in 2006-07 brought the tactics with the "two pivots" in the midfield. This was also a rather bold decision since Carrick was signed to replace a DM like Keane. Lots of people questioned Ferguson's decision back then too but again Sir Alex proved everyone wrong. Carrick was the perfect man to shield the back four giving his midfield partner the opportunity to create while Rooney-Tevez-Park were constantly providing tireless runs up and down the pitch giving the opportunity to Ronaldo and Giggs to stay in more advanced positions. In 2008 and 2009 the shape was somewhere between 4-4-2ish and 4-3-3ish formations with the utilization of Park, Tevez and Rooney proving Ferguson a mastermind in defensive wide attackers and defensive forwards. I believe that during that period (until Pep's Barca emerged) Fergie's tactics became dominant in modern football. United remained unbeaten in Europe for two whole seasons, minus one game of course.

The defeat in the 2009 CL final and the loss of Ronaldo brought a change towards more traditional 4-4-2 (or 4-4-1-1) tactics. The logic with the two pivots in the midfield didn't change but the space the CMs had to cover was much bigger because neither Valencia nor Young could drift infield, get on the ball in between the lines and make things happen. This caused a series of problems in the central areas but the team was successful again. And again it was because of Ferguson's ability to adapt. Especially in his last season, when he received lots of criticism for his tactical choices, we saw full backs operating in more advanced areas and becoming attacking threats (which nowadays is used a lot by many managers), we saw the diamond (away at Newcastle for example), a team that defended in a very narrow shape to compensate for the lack of a ball winning midfielder and lots of other little details that made the difference.

The term tactical dinosaur can only be valid if we're only talking about managers who brought something new to the game. But these managers are very rare to find and they're not always successful (take Bielsa for instance).
 

siw2007

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I don't think Fergie was a tactics was Fergie's strongest point, but I don't think he was a tactical dinosaur either. I think we got our preparation for big games spot on in a lot of cases. Games like Madrid 2013, Barca 2008, Arsenal across the years etc were great performances. Unfortunately, the Champions League finals against Barca and some of the games at Anfield always leave a headache.

Fergie's strength was always his exceptional man management skills. The way he could get players regardless of their background or natural ability to play to such a high level and play with such strong desire to win for so long was easily the best in the world. He was always a great judge of players and knew how to get the best out of them and knew when to let them go.

He was good tactically, but it was other talents as a manger which propelled him to such status.
 

Speak

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He's far from the best that football has seen from a tactical perspective and I wish most United supporters would acknowledge that. That said, he was good enough and he always, very critically, surrounded himself with good coaches.

United should have won at least another two UCL under Ferguson and besides 'bad luck' I'd say it was a mixture of poor tactics/strategy in matches and poor recruitment in certain areas.

Tactics certainly were down the list of his priorities.

Then again, why would he prioritise it when he's arguably the best pseudo-psychologist the game has ever seen? That alone won him most of his trophies.
Have to agree. He was obviously no dinosaur, but I think United fans often go too far the other way when discussing this.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Who cares when he was winning trophies every season playing attacking football without employing "modern tactics"?

In fact, nowadays there is too much emphasis on style and philosophy and yada yada but not enough on winning. Either football styles are cyclical as well so no reason to call a particular style modern or obsolete.
This pretty much sums up my stance on the matter.

The amount of drivel spouted by geeks (not even very knowledgeable geeks at that - geeks who don't know their football history) behind keyboards when it comes to football tactics - is considerable. Fergie did move with the times, realized the importance of applying more cagey tactics in Europe (arguably he could have done so earlier, but arguably God took his sweet time to create the world too, the lazy cnut), and his general approach to the game isn't "outdated" as much as it's now - here and now - not the most favoured approach.

Playing a fast paced attacking game with focus on width, a game of quick transitions rather than a pure counter attacking game, isn't "outdated" by any stretch. It's present even now, albeit not used by the most conspicuous managers at the most conspicuous clubs.

There will always be trends and modes in football - and there will always be more than one ways to skin a cat.

What happened to Fergie is that he grew old - as all people, and all managers, do. And in his very last seasons, he relied on what he had more than on reinventing his approach. This led to underwhelming football, compared to what we were accustomed to. But he still managed to win more than he lost (to put it mildly). The team mentality he succeeded in installing and maintaining, all the way to the bitter (or rather sweet, in fact) end, says everything about the man. There's not a manager alive (probably no dead ones either) who could've done what he did with his last United incarnation.
 

RedMilo

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I voted B, you dont win the titles has has without being tactically astute, whilst his never say die attitude is what he is famous for, the fact he acknowledged areas of threat and looked to nullify them i.e. Park on Pirlo springs to mind. The fact he played either 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 throughout is career, not only served up winning football but entertaining football for such a length of time is a miracle. Watching the Barca team of 3-4 years ago(the so called best team ever) where undeniably very good but didnt half bore you with their continental style rubbish. The man is a bonefide living legend for giving us years of both and tactically sound.
 

Nighteyes

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Tactical dinosaur? Are you serious? This would be a laughable proposition on an opposition forum, but the fact that it's come up on a United forum is a bit depressing especially against the backdrop of having a self-proclaimed tactical genius at the helm serving up utter shite.

Ferguson won European trophies in three different decades, ffs (and that could've been easily 4).
This.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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That team from 2006-2009 is regarded as the second best tactical side of the modern generation after Pep's Barcelona, so no. He was probably a bit naive in Europe up until then but he evolved spectacularly over his career.
 

birdy2121

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SAF was a motivational and tactical superman frankly. He could drop Rooney away in Madrid and still be unlucky to draw 1-1. Check that team and with Welbeck and Cleverly and argue otherwise.
 

noodlehair

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Fergie would build a team based on the strength of his players, while someone like Van Gaal will want the players to play in a certain way regardless of their strengths...this is tactics now apparently. It's not, it's tactics balanced against man and resource management, and Fergie did it much better.

Fergie wasn't an outdated idiot when it came to tactics. What should be clear at this point is he wanted players to play to their strengths and express themselves, but you wouldn't see a United team under Fergie come out, and then look like they have no real clue what it is they're meant to be doing. When he had Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney etc...he set the team up to counter attack and used the likes of Carrick, Evra, etc to facilitate that. When he had Ruud, Scholes, Keane, etc. he'd set the team up to play off the front man and build attacks in waves. You'd never have whole games week after week where our team look baffled and nervous, like last season, or under Moyes.

He was adaptable while someone like Van Gaal has a way of playing and that's it...the players have to fit around it even if it doesn't suit them at all. It doesn't take time because it's modernising, it takes time because if you can't play to the strengths of the players you have, you have to get the players you want first.

The genius of Fergie is you could give him a squad of average players with strengths in certain areas, and he'd get 90% of them playing to those strengths and base the team's playing style around that. You'll never see Van Gaal do that...or most managers for that matter.

You can't turn football into a game of chess, because in chess you don't get situations where one Castle is Christiano Ronaldo and the next is Bebe. The flaw with this idea of Van Gaal being modernised management, is that his methods kind of ignore this fact.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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Fergie would build a team based on the strength of his players, while someone like Van Gaal will want the players to play in a certain way regardless of their strengths...this is tactics now apparently. It's not, it's tactics balanced against man and resource management, and Fergie did it much better.

Fergie wasn't an outdated idiot when it came to tactics. What should be clear at this point is he wanted players to play to their strengths and express themselves, but you wouldn't see a United team under Fergie come out, and then look like they have no real clue what it is they're meant to be doing. When he had Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney etc...he set the team up to counter attack and used the likes of Carrick, Evra, etc to facilitate that. When he had Ruud, Scholes, Keane, etc. he'd set the team up to play off the front man and build attacks in waves. You'd never have whole games week after week where our team look baffled and nervous, like last season, or under Moyes.

He was adaptable while someone like Van Gaal has a way of playing and that's it...the players have to fit around it even if it doesn't suit them at all. It doesn't take time because it's modernising, it takes time because if you can't play to the strengths of the players you have, you have to get the players you want first.

The genius of Fergie is you could give him a squad of average players with strengths in certain areas, and he'd get 90% of them playing to those strengths and base the team's playing style around that. You'll never see Van Gaal do that...or most managers for that matter.

You can't turn football into a game of chess, because in chess you don't get situations where one Castle is Christiano Ronaldo and the next is Bebe. The flaw with this idea of Van Gaal being modernised management, is that his methods kind of ignore this fact.
That's a good take, among the current football managers, I think you could use the narrative to describe Ancelotti pretty closely.