The tactical dinosaur was winning games and leagues without a proper midfield. I'd take him back anyday. The guy was a genuis.
Was Sir Alex a tactical dinosaur? I Poll Added
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
No, he was a great tactician.
If he was a dinosaur, he was the fecking T-REX.
I would love to be able to watch anyone who thought he was a tactical dinosaur sit down with him and debate tactics. Would be highly amusing to watch.
This.
And also to add to the above and this might be quite an unpopular opinion here but I believe Queiroz expertise helped Fergie get up a level tactically in Europe. And if he'd been around the time of our 2 CL finals against Barca I believe we'd have won atleast one of them.
Fergie was a really underrated tactician. A lot of people focus on United's under-performing nature in European overall, the overly positive gung-ho nature that sometimes backfired, and the usage of a vanilla 4-4-2 template for the majority of Fergie's career, to kind of undermine him as a tactician. But Arrigo Sacchi summed it up brilliantly after United lost to Barcelona :
All of Fergie's teams, apart from maybe the ones from his latter year (like the one that lost to Barcelona), played extremely well as a unit. That is what made them team so dangerous, everyone was aware of their individual and collective responsibilities.
Tactics extend beyond just the basic formation, and Fergie has that part down to a tee. The players worked hard for each other, were aware of their defensive duties, were always on the move, formed sturdy banks to absorb counter-attacks, and acted decisively with great speed when launching their own. Though the view is somewhat tainted by the zombie football towards the end of his career. Another feature that gets overlooked is Fergie's adaptability. Very few managers can tweak their setup ever so often, without a dip in overall productivity, and Fergie became a master of that, especially in the mid to late 2000s, where he mixed and matched to extract the best out of our forward line.
Did he sort of revolutionize football tactics like Helenio Herrera with Catenaccio, or Victor Maslov with pressing and zonal marking? Not really. Did he influence a generation like Rinus Michels? Nope. But you don't have to be a revolutionary to be a great tactician.
Jose Mourinho for one does nothing new, and is worshiped as arguably the best tactician right now with Guardiola, who's much more versatile. You know what's coming with Mourinho's team, it's not some exotic setup, but because his teams are so well organized, it's really hard to break them down. Similar with someone like Simeone, with his two flat banks of four.
Fergie used a basic 4-4-2 for most of his career, and professed counter-attacking football, but it was beautiful to watch, with quick transitions and the team performing as a unit, and opposition teams generally had no answer for it.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/nov/22/arrigo-sacchi-milan-italy
All of Fergie's teams, apart from maybe the ones from his latter year (like the one that lost to Barcelona), played extremely well as a unit. That is what made them team so dangerous, everyone was aware of their individual and collective responsibilities.
Tactics extend beyond just the basic formation, and Fergie has that part down to a tee. The players worked hard for each other, were aware of their defensive duties, were always on the move, formed sturdy banks to absorb counter-attacks, and acted decisively with great speed when launching their own. Though the view is somewhat tainted by the zombie football towards the end of his career. Another feature that gets overlooked is Fergie's adaptability. Very few managers can tweak their setup ever so often, without a dip in overall productivity, and Fergie became a master of that, especially in the mid to late 2000s, where he mixed and matched to extract the best out of our forward line.
Did he sort of revolutionize football tactics like Helenio Herrera with Catenaccio, or Victor Maslov with pressing and zonal marking? Not really. Did he influence a generation like Rinus Michels? Nope. But you don't have to be a revolutionary to be a great tactician.
Jose Mourinho for one does nothing new, and is worshiped as arguably the best tactician right now with Guardiola, who's much more versatile. You know what's coming with Mourinho's team, it's not some exotic setup, but because his teams are so well organized, it's really hard to break them down. Similar with someone like Simeone, with his two flat banks of four.
Fergie used a basic 4-4-2 for most of his career, and professed counter-attacking football, but it was beautiful to watch, with quick transitions and the team performing as a unit, and opposition teams generally had no answer for it.
Fergie's tactical strength was team building. The sum of his succesful squads was always greater than its parts
No he didn't, changing his style of play in Europe is why we had five successful seasons there. We would've likely won more than one CL in that period too if it wasn't for that Barca side.
The 2011 final was the only time I remember him being a bit naive but I'm not sure you could blame him for that as the XI he used was so successful for him up until that point.
If Fergie was a dinosaur, what dinosaur would he be?
I voted yes, but this more accurately conveys what I mean.
Edit: And now someones added it as a poll option, changed my vote.
The funny thing with that post is, the German team that finally shat all over possession football, played an almost Fergie-esque 4-4-2. So much much for not adjusting, and being outdated.
Poll adjusted as the first two choices with an additional choice .
Apologies
Edit: and for the lack of "was"
Apologies
Edit: and for the lack of "was"
Nice, and probably obvious choice, though, I do see a bit of triceratops in him. Just look at it! http://i.imgur.com/fisGWHy.jpg
Some light reading from Jonathan Wilson, entitled "Alex Ferguson was as adept at evolving tactically as any manager in history"
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/08/sir-alex-ferguson-tactics-evolution
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/08/sir-alex-ferguson-tactics-evolution
No he was one of the most tactically evolving managers I've ever seen. You can physically see his movement towards the AC Milan model of the early 90's.
Tactical dinosaur? Are you serious? This would be a laughable proposition on an opposition forum, but the fact that it's come up on a United forum is a bit depressing especially against the backdrop of having a self-proclaimed tactical genius at the helm serving up utter shite.
Ferguson won European trophies in three different decades, ffs (and that could've been easily 4).
Ferguson won European trophies in three different decades, ffs (and that could've been easily 4).
You will see that I merely asked a question and never implied either yes or no.
There's no need to ask people to move on when we miss Fergie. Uncalled for really! He will forever be missed, whatever happens to our club.
This.
If he was a tactical "dinosaur" he would not have been able to remain successful from the 80s until his retirement.
I find some of the accusations you hear about Man United playing outdated football under Sir Alex and comments about being tactically a bit naive quite bizarre.
None of it is remotely true and I think a lot of it stems from the defeats against Barca in the two Champions League finals. Two matches where United were clear underdogs. That Barcelona team is maybe the best club side to have played in Europe in recent years.
None of it is remotely true and I think a lot of it stems from the defeats against Barca in the two Champions League finals. Two matches where United were clear underdogs. That Barcelona team is maybe the best club side to have played in Europe in recent years.
Lazy analysis to say he wasn't goo tactically. You won't win 3 European titles and have a long career winning and outsmarting opponents without being tactically astute
Look at our away games in the Champions League from 2006-2011 and the tactical abilities we showed.
one of the most patronising descriptions of the greatest football manager in the world and of all time. People are so spoiled they take things for granted.
Well said!
Definitely not a dinosaur. Perhaps not a master tactician as such, but was more than capable of evolving our style in European games in later years to make us a lot more successful. His ability to build a team, and his man management were probably always stronger than his tactics in themselves, but I don't think it was a glaring weakness or anything like that.
"Did pretty well"
You don't win what he won, over that amount of time and be tactically inept. He had help along the way from his assistants I'm sure but he was pretty much always on the top of his game in tactical sense.
Fergie mastered the premier league in a miraculous way remarkably brushing off the challenge of many a sugar daddy club.......but in Europe he was miles behind in tactics until Quiroz arrived and taught him a little about a less exciting but safer 433 formation...One can't help but wonder if a 433 master tactition like Mourinho/Ancelotti would have won more Euro cups with the insanely gifted squad of the late 90's of Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc....Man Utd had the best player in the league in every position during that era
Saf was tyson, pep is ali, mourinho is mayweather
Quiroz and Rene to the rescue. SAF was truly lucky. He had such able and self-effacing deputies who carried this old man who could never figure out the intricacies of playing a 4-3-3 and later on went on to have brilliant careers themselves but never one mentioning the fact that it was them in fact who were responsible for United's success through the years.
A good read. It's hard to believe some posters on the forum were thinking otherwise.
It shows how incredible the other aspects of his management were that people question his ability as a tactician. You don't get a 20 year trophy haul like his on motivation and man management alone, you have to evolve. Football was different game from when he started to when he finished, and he was a winner the whole way through. He got advise from good assistants and learned from them.
His best (or, at least 'most obvious') tactics were usually for games when the team couldn't out-pass/outplay the opposition.
His tactics for the rest of the games, where the team dominated possession, weren't nearly as blatant/obvious.
This is probably why some (especially non-United fans) don't see him as particularly great tactically. For a lot of them, when the team attacked and won games/titles under Sir Alex, they appeared to do so out of mental strength, hard work and general determination rather than tactical nous. As well as having two or three stand out players.
There were a number of counter-attacking wins over Arsenal, for example. But those type of defensive match-ups probably didn't happen enough (per 50 games) to leave a huge impression on everyone.
His tactics for the rest of the games, where the team dominated possession, weren't nearly as blatant/obvious.
This is probably why some (especially non-United fans) don't see him as particularly great tactically. For a lot of them, when the team attacked and won games/titles under Sir Alex, they appeared to do so out of mental strength, hard work and general determination rather than tactical nous. As well as having two or three stand out players.
There were a number of counter-attacking wins over Arsenal, for example. But those type of defensive match-ups probably didn't happen enough (per 50 games) to leave a huge impression on everyone.
I dont think he was a tactical master though. He had blind spots like Mourinho's Chelsea and Pep's Barcelona.
13 league titles in 20 years and he is a tactical dinosaur?
He was an even better man manager than a tactician, as he proved when he decided not to set up any tactics at all his final season.
but he was still one of the very best out there at setting up a team.
He was an even better man manager than a tactician, as he proved when he decided not to set up any tactics at all his final season.
but he was still one of the very best out there at setting up a team.
There's no chance Fergie was a tactical dinosaur.
I think people forget that before United won the title in 92/93 Fergie had already won two European trophies with Aberdeen and United beating Real in 1983 and Cruyff's Barcelona in 1991 respectively. You don't do that unless you are good tactically.
He also got to three Champions League finals in four years from 2008-2011 which is a better record than anyone other than Guardiola in that period. I also don't know why people assume that we regularly played 4-4-2 in the Champions League knockout phases during this period because from from what I can recall I distinctly remember United playing 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 regularly throughout that period especially away from home. The last time I can remember Fergie playing 4-4-2 regularly home and away in the Champions League knockout stages during that period was in 10/11 when Rooney and Hernandez started upfront in the Quarters, semis and the final.
That change had started long before then going back to Fergie signing Seba Veron.
I think people forget that before United won the title in 92/93 Fergie had already won two European trophies with Aberdeen and United beating Real in 1983 and Cruyff's Barcelona in 1991 respectively. You don't do that unless you are good tactically.
He also got to three Champions League finals in four years from 2008-2011 which is a better record than anyone other than Guardiola in that period. I also don't know why people assume that we regularly played 4-4-2 in the Champions League knockout phases during this period because from from what I can recall I distinctly remember United playing 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 regularly throughout that period especially away from home. The last time I can remember Fergie playing 4-4-2 regularly home and away in the Champions League knockout stages during that period was in 10/11 when Rooney and Hernandez started upfront in the Quarters, semis and the final.
That change had started long before then going back to Fergie signing Seba Veron.
Have you ever heard of sarcasm?
The FM legends on here all think they are more tactically astute than Fergie was.