Was Veron a flop?

Bebestation

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And some people say that Rooney didnt live up to his potential whilst some say that Veron wasn't a flop :rolleyes:
 

Oranges038

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And some people say that Rooney didnt live up to his potential whilst some say that Veron wasn't a flop :rolleyes:
Same people probably think Lukaku should have stayed.

Veron was a flop at Utd and Chelsea, absolutely no doubt about it. I think even former players have also alluded to his failure at Utd. That it was down to Keane being the main man in midfield at Utd. That didn't allow him to fully take control of that area like he did in Italy.

I watched a lot of Italian football back then because of Channel 4. He was an excellent player. I think the real issue was that the English game at the time just didn't suit him and his style.
 

Bebestation

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Same people probably think Lukaku should have stayed.

Veron was a flop at Utd and Chelsea, absolutely no doubt about it. I think even former players have also alluded to his failure at Utd was down to Keane being the main man in midfield at Utd. That didn't allow him to fully take control of that area like he did in Italy.

I watched a lot of Italian football back then because of Channel 4. He was an excellent player. I think the real issue was that the English game at the time just didn't suit him and his style.
Veron didnt really come up a level after United did he? I dont remember it.

With Forlan you could arguably say it was the wrong time or the wrong league or environment for him because he has done well after.
 

FrankDrebin

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I don’t remember the opponent but my memory swears I was watching a pre season highlight on Sky News & he played a ridiculous through ball for an assist then was sold days later.

Might just be a false memory but I remember thinking he was about to settle as well.
His agent was touting Seba all around Europe trying to get him out of United. SAF felt slightly betrayed as, with the departure of Beckham, he felt he could now grasp his opportunity and be a constant figure in the starting 11.
SAF didn't want to sell Veron, it was merely a case of both player and agent desperately pushing for a move.

But it was a shame as he was putting in some stellar performances on tour but we all know why now. Just to get himself out-there again in the shop window.
 
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Oranges038

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Veron didnt really come up a level after United did he? I dont remember it.

With Forlan you could arguably say it was the wrong time or the wrong league or environment for him because he has done well after.
He really was one of the top midfielders in the world. He went downhill after joining and was worse at Chelsea from what I remember.
 

FrankDrebin

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He had a good debut for Chelsea away to Liverpool but that was really his only high point for the blues.
Remember him having abit of a mare at the Stade Louis II in the CL.
 
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His agent was touting Seba all around Europe trying to get him out of United. SAF felt slightly betrayed as, with the departure of Beckham, he felt he could now grasp his opportunity and be a constant figure in the starting 11.
SAF didn't want to sell Veron, it was merely a case of both player and agent desperately pushing for a move.

But it was a shame as he was putting in some stellar performances on tour but we all know why now. Just to get himself out-there again in the shop window.
not so sure that’s the story. SAF was bigging him up to sell him, and when we got a great offer, even at 50% of what we paid for him, we bit their hands off.
 

redshaw

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For such a talented player it was incredible to see him hitting shots well high and wide, often over to the corner of the ground.
 

Chipper

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Yes. If you sign for an English record transfer fee and are rapidly binned off after starting 45 league games for half price you're a flop.
 

LDUred

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Duffer is spot on.

In the cold light of day, Juan Sebastian Veron was a flop at Manchester United.

You can't buy a player for a record fee, a few seasons later sell him on to your rivals, and then claim he was a success.

That being said, he did have some excellent games for us and he certainly showed his class while he was in a red shirt. Maybe he should have been given more time to prove himself as his performances in pre-season were very encouraging.

It was a privilege to watch him play for us and his technical ability was something to sit back and admire.
 

Foxbatt

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He should have been given one more season. He was never a flop. He had a decent time.
 

thepolice123

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It was clear he was not the player to play in 2 man midfield alongside Keane. Its pretty similar to how Pogba is with us.

If you watched him at Lazio they use him in the LCM like a roaming midfielder.
 

Amir

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Maybe he should have been given more time to prove himself as his performances in pre-season were very encouraging.
Naa. I'd say two years of real games was enough to decide. A few pre season friendlies against good sides who were behind us on preperation shouldn't have mattered.
 

FrankDrebin

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I saw Veron live when he played against my hometown club Bournemouth in a testimonial game, Rio made his debut I recall.

I was fixated on Veron throughout the whole game. Was so excited to see this genuine world class player but truth be told, other than a amazing backheel down the byline, he was pretty trash. Bournemouth were all over him and he just couldn't get into the game. It was too physical and quick for him.

We won the game eventually 3-2. A double from Stewart and another from Ben Muirhead.

To say I was disappointed with Veron's performance would be a understatement.
 

noodlehair

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He was a massive flop.

Some people have short memories. He's a great player and I actually liked him, but he didn't fit anywhere in our team and didn't adapt at al lto the PL. We already had a midfield full of world class players who were used to and adapted to the PL, and Scholes who was better than Veron at everything Veron was good at (no shame in that really).

He had a good first month or so then after that it was mostly bad. A brief decent run of form in his second season, then after that he had a mysterious "injury" that meant he barely got picked for about 6 months. Then Ferguson sold him to Chelsea. Something he'd never do in a million years with a player he actually rated.

Sometimes it just doesn't work out for whatever reason. I still really rate him as a player, but it was really noticeable for us at least that he struggled with the PL. He'd nearly always look a completely different player in the European games.
 

Joga Bonito

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He was a flop for United and although it does affect his reputation and standing (as it should to an extent), it shouldn't take away anything from the fact that he was one of the top midfielders of his era.
 

Ferguson’s Hairdryer

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Fantastic player I remember his first match assist vs, I think Blackburn, and also he’s demolition of Juventus in Turin when we smashed them 3-0.

Reasons he didn’t prosper..
1) Himself. Failed to adapt to English game
2) SAF at the time wanted to be more European but didn’t know how to.
3) Keane and Scholes were still peak. Saf didn’t want to sabotage it by tweaking things to much.
 

tjb

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He was. The reason people even question it is because of a backdated inferiority complex from British fans. Coutinho can go to Barca or Hazard can go to Real and noone complains about misusing them. But when a Veron comes to England and is played centrally..its oh we misused him and adaptation. How about he just wasn't as good as we thought?
 

Luke1995

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Wasn't Roy Keane massively critical in his book about his performances v Leverkusen?
I actually have Keane's book. I'm not sure but i'll take a look!

I think people in here mentioned he played better in CL games because the pace was slower than in the PL
 

Coops73

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Veron was a real anomaly for me. When we signed him I thought we’d got one of the best midfielders in world football but it soon became clear that his exceptional passing that he showed in Italy was down to the game being much slower there, he never had that time to look up and pick a pass in the premier league and I think he struggled to ever get his head around that.
 

MrMarcello

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I saw Veron live when he played against my hometown club Bournemouth in a testimonial game, Rio made his debut I recall.

I was fixated on Veron throughout the whole game. Was so excited to see this genuine world class player but truth be told, other than a amazing backheel down the byline, he was pretty trash. Bournemouth were all over him and he just couldn't get into the game. It was too physical and quick for him.

We won the game eventually 3-2. A double from Stewart and another from Ben Muirhead.

To say I was disappointed with Veron's performance would be a understatement.
Muirhead, Stewart, and Veron scored, no double from Stewart. Veron seemed to be quite lively from the writeup; had a free kick saved by the keeper, played the ball that Ole set for Stewart's goal, and set up Giggs who failed to convert.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/2155831.stm
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/afc-bournemouth-2-3-manchester-united.1610/
 

MrMarcello

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He was a massive flop.

Some people have short memories. He's a great player and I actually liked him, but he didn't fit anywhere in our team and didn't adapt at al lto the PL. We already had a midfield full of world class players who were used to and adapted to the PL, and Scholes who was better than Veron at everything Veron was good at (no shame in that really).

He had a good first month or so then after that it was mostly bad. A brief decent run of form in his second season, then after that he had a mysterious "injury" that meant he barely got picked for about 6 months. Then Ferguson sold him to Chelsea. Something he'd never do in a million years with a player he actually rated.

Sometimes it just doesn't work out for whatever reason. I still really rate him as a player, but it was really noticeable for us at least that he struggled with the PL. He'd nearly always look a completely different player in the European games.
Got me thinking... seeing as SAF usually added 1-3 quality players per summer, sometimes to replace outgoing players, who should he have signed that summer? They had signed Carroll, Ruud, and Richardosn that summer - future backup keeper to replace Raimond, a striker to replace Teddy, and a teen winger.
Perhaps a young player to groom into Keane's successor, maybe a certain Alonso at Sociedad?
Perhaps a then prodigy like Joe Cole who had liked for a while?
Perhaps made a big push for Riquelme while at Boca?
Added squad player type, perhaps a young Seth Johnson who had recently made his England debut (and nearly scored) but never hit the heights some anticipated? (he made signings like this here and there, see Djemba, Miller, etc.)
Gone for a young midfielder at West Ham, went by the name Carrick?
 

Tribec

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Veron's game just didn't suit the Premier League, when we played to his strengths and let him do his thing he was outstanding. That however was few and far between in the Leauge, a bit more in Europe. Were he to be arriving in the Premier League in the last 10 years he'd be a huge success.

The other thing to say is that apart from one or two players we've never really had much success from players from South America, we don't seem to get the best out of them. Veron should have been the best of the lot and had potential to join the greats at United, but it didn't happen. He regained his form upon leaving the UK though, and even in his later years was a joy to watch play.
 

lysglimt

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Veron wasn't built for the P.L. If you gave Veron time on the ball he was world-class, but he never adapted to the fact that he didn't always have time on the ball. When Keane was the holding midfielder and got the ball with his face to goal 30 yards out - he never lost the ball. If he wasn't 100% certain there wasn't a player nearby - he played one-touch to the keeper or another defender. Verons instinct was to always take the ball and turn to look for creative passes. And once the opponents learned that - they had a player pressing him every time he received the ball in a defensive position. There was one game against Bolton where Keane was injured - and I think it was Nolan who robbed Veron 3 times in that position. So yes he was a flop!
 

GueRed

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Got me thinking... seeing as SAF usually added 1-3 quality players per summer, sometimes to replace outgoing players, who should he have signed that summer? They had signed Carroll, Ruud, and Richardosn that summer - future backup keeper to replace Raimond, a striker to replace Teddy, and a teen winger.
Perhaps a young player to groom into Keane's successor, maybe a certain Alonso at Sociedad?
Perhaps a then prodigy like Joe Cole who had liked for a while?
Perhaps made a big push for Riquelme while at Boca?
Added squad player type, perhaps a young Seth Johnson who had recently made his England debut (and nearly scored) but never hit the heights some anticipated? (he made signings like this here and there, see Djemba, Miller, etc.)
Gone for a young midfielder at West Ham, went by the name Carrick?
That summer 2001 of the big names we were realistically linked to (Vieira, Veron, Rivaldo, Nedved, Rui Costa, Petit) with hindsight Pavel Nedved was the one we should've went for. Imagine him playing off a peak Ruud Van Nistelrooy for a couple of years...would've been fecking sick.

Also with hindsight especially seeing how Barthez totally lost it, it should've been us who smashed the GK transfer record for Gianluigi Buffon...or go for the cheaper option in Edwin Van Der Sar ;) who ended up at Fulham that summer

If we kept Stam as well... And bought someone like Lilian Thuram to play alongside him. fecking hell we would've been more than equipped to go all out on a Champions League and Premier League assault.
 

GueRed

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I think i was the only one not enthralled with the Veron signing. Thanks to Channel 4's Serie A coverage I watched him alot at Lazio and Parma etc. My thought at the time was that he was just the wrong type of midfielder needed for our team. We didnt need another deep lying midfielder. We already had world class in Keane and Scholes playing in those positions with Nicky Butt as back-up.

what we needed was someone who played higher up the pitch who could take players on, score goals and give us pace and penetration in the final third of the pitch. Someone who could link up with the lone forward.
 

MrMarcello

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I think i was the only one not enthralled with the Veron signing. Thanks to Channel 4's Serie A coverage I watched him alot at Lazio and Parma etc. My thought at the time was that he was just the wrong type of midfielder needed for our team. We didnt need another deep lying midfielder. We already had world class in Keane and Scholes playing in those positions with Nicky Butt as back-up.

what we needed was someone who played higher up the pitch who could take players on, score goals and give us pace and penetration in the final third of the pitch. Someone who could link up with the lone forward.
Nedved, as the poster above mentioned. Mendieta perhaps? Though he may have flopped in England.

Riquelme was spending another year at Boca, perhaps he'd have joined and played in that role off the striker ahead of the midfield. May have flopped in England, didn't have the pace you mentioned but could play a killer pass and take a good shot (and set piece).
 

GueRed

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Nedved, as the poster above mentioned. Mendieta perhaps? Though he may have flopped in England.

Riquelme was spending another year at Boca, perhaps he'd have joined and played in that role off the striker ahead of the midfield. May have flopped in England, didn't have the pace you mentioned but could play a killer pass and take a good shot (and set piece).
Riquelme would've been interesting. He was a World Class talent no question but again I think he would've struggled with the pace of the Premier League.

His decision making on the ball and technique was class.

Loved watching him for Villareal
 

Tallis

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For me, even in the games where he actually did something brilliant, it was difficult to say he had a good game because he would have given possession away so many times. I think some players can look world class in a system that is built to suit them but struggle if they need to adapt in a different style / system. If we were playing a system like the Milan team of the 2000s, he may have looked world class feeding balls behind the lines to runners and not having to worry about loosing possssion or tracking back.
 

rcoobc

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Flop at United
Flop at Chelsea
The rare double flopper
 

T_Model101

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I vaguely remember a pundit saying after a match that Veron couldn't head, shoot or tackle and agreeing with them.
I read in Andy Coles book that he thought he was one of the nicest and most decent blokes he had ever met though
 

Foxbatt

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I vaguely remember a pundit saying after a match that Veron couldn't head, shoot or tackle and agreeing with them.
I read in Andy Coles book that he thought he was one of the nicest and most decent blokes he had ever met though
He might not be able to head or tackle, but shooting is something he is very good at.
 

Foxbatt

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it's Juan Sebastian Veron, you know this already - was a 'f**king great player' and any football journalist, pundit, or fan who ever says otherwise is a 'f**king idiot'.

That was Sir Alex Ferguson's defence of a player who, throughout his career, won South American Footballer of the Year twice, two Scudetti, four Coppa Italia, a UEFA Cup, and a Premier League title.
 

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Veron was world class. Unfortunately he wasn't going to dislodge Keane, Scholes or Beckham. But he was class and too good to be just a reserve.