In that case, Vogts and Maicon May aswell just take a seat in this game.
WC All Stars Chain Draft Round 1- Crappy vs Arbitrium
- Thread starter crappycraperson
- Start date
Yet Boniek had begun the tournament slowly in a deep role, suddenly bursting into life as he was redeployed at centre-forward in the 5-1 win over Peru in the final first-phase match. Booked needlessly in the 0-0 draw against the USSR that saw Poland through to the last four, Boniek was suspended and badly missed against Italy
Boniek didn't play a similar role he played with Platini at juve which is what crappy is going for here.
Boniek didn't play a similar role he played with Platini at juve which is what crappy is going for here.
The front 3 :
Koscsis -
Boniek's hattrick in 82 WC -
Garrincha -
vs Eng 62 -
Final 62 -
Koscsis -
Boniek's hattrick in 82 WC -
Garrincha -
vs Eng 62 -
Final 62 -
My point was mainly to occupy Maicon more and pin him back, because every time my defence recovers the ball he’s an outlet in lots of space, and that’s when he’s at his best.
That was one of my takeaways from reading about him during the drafting.
Center forward is also a term that can be used to describe his role at Juve too. He pretty much played in front of Platini ala Rossi with only difference being that he would move all around the pitch to create width. That's exactly what he will do here. He is not a winger that needs to be a primary ball carrier. So as @harms put it, you don't want another Dargan with Garrrincha who would hog the ball, you want someone like Boniek or Cristiano who would instead create space with their movement either out wide or through the middle. Main difference with his Juve role is that he does not have a Platini to link up with. Boniek has always been more of a wing forward than a traditional winger ala Best. Not sure why there is much confusion over that in this match up given in all the drafts he has been used in almost exact role with or without another 10
Went with crappy because Varela and Cerezo looks nice to take care of Pele as much as possible. Usually I wouldn't appreciate a double pivot MF without a proper number 10. but with Boniek and Didi, it looks alright.
There is a lot to like about Arbit's team as well but his defense seems off to me. Silva and Passarella both feel a bit similar.
While I rate Lizarazu's tournament highly, I would have preferred a no nonsense LB there. Someone like Krol who could take care of Garrincha (@crappycraperson , could you please stop calling him Mane. Irks me for some reason) and covered for Passarella. I know Passarella is not playing his uber attacking role here but you can't take his natural instincts away and in the 1978 WC, he had someone similar to Krol in Tarantini (although not anywhere near the same quality of course) who covered for him. Add to the fact that you have Boniek in there who would require you to never lose concentration.
Hagi, again I think had a great tournament because he was the star of the team. Can he play a Rivellino-esque role and produce the same levels of supporting performances? I dunno, maybe he can.
Front 6 vs front 6, there is nothing in it IMO and would be interesting to see who wins this.
There is a lot to like about Arbit's team as well but his defense seems off to me. Silva and Passarella both feel a bit similar.
While I rate Lizarazu's tournament highly, I would have preferred a no nonsense LB there. Someone like Krol who could take care of Garrincha (@crappycraperson , could you please stop calling him Mane. Irks me for some reason) and covered for Passarella. I know Passarella is not playing his uber attacking role here but you can't take his natural instincts away and in the 1978 WC, he had someone similar to Krol in Tarantini (although not anywhere near the same quality of course) who covered for him. Add to the fact that you have Boniek in there who would require you to never lose concentration.
Hagi, again I think had a great tournament because he was the star of the team. Can he play a Rivellino-esque role and produce the same levels of supporting performances? I dunno, maybe he can.
Front 6 vs front 6, there is nothing in it IMO and would be interesting to see who wins this.
"Dargan" annoys me even more, considering that it's not even Dzajic's name
Costacurta and Forster isn’t the best pairing. I think 1986 Careca can do a pretty good job of occupying them both (particularly Costacurta who I don’t remember being anything special in 1994)
Ultimately, all things point to Pele having an absolute worldie here. He’s the best player on the park, and Hagi and Figo around him will do more than occupy varlea and Didi so Cerezo is left time and time again to deal with Pele himself and there’s just no contest.
I don’t like to bang on about the players who everyone knows about, but Peles 1970 World Cup performance needs to be a factor here, especially considering the not too dissimilar setup of the supporting cast.
This video is amazing. The best team in international history and one of the best individual tournament performances in the history of the sport.
Ultimately, all things point to Pele having an absolute worldie here. He’s the best player on the park, and Hagi and Figo around him will do more than occupy varlea and Didi so Cerezo is left time and time again to deal with Pele himself and there’s just no contest.
I don’t like to bang on about the players who everyone knows about, but Peles 1970 World Cup performance needs to be a factor here, especially considering the not too dissimilar setup of the supporting cast.
This video is amazing. The best team in international history and one of the best individual tournament performances in the history of the sport.
"Dargan" annoys me even more, considering that it's not even Dzajic's name
I think you are severly underrating Forster. He is a brilliant defender to have for this draft context or any. Hopefully draft old timers like @Gio or @Theon would back me up on this.
Costacurta only missed 94 final due to suspension otherwise he was a key part of Italian team that tournament too. Both have better WC pedigree than Thiago Silva who as per tactics is up for a losing battle against Kocsis.
Costacurta only missed 94 final due to suspension otherwise he was a key part of Italian team that tournament too. Both have better WC pedigree than Thiago Silva who as per tactics is up for a losing battle against Kocsis.
I swear this is the 3rd time someone has pasted the same video on here whenever I question anything about him
I’m rating all players on their world cups alone. Maybe a bit harsh on Silva who would have stopped that 7-1 happening for sure.
Well it’s fair, he wasnt a weak left back in a physical sense.I swear this is the 3rd time someone has pasted the same video on here whenever I question anything about him
He’s good at both ends though, so whilst garrincha will absolutely get the better of him more often than not, bixente can be influential at the other end when I have the ball.
Agree with almost everything you say there.
I don't question the player (he would have been my LB if I didn't run out of European players allowed) , I question the fit against the opposition and the players on his side.
Thin margins, but when the quality is so high, it does feel like nitpicking.
@crappycraperson id just like to point out that I have one more all star on the field than you
No worries, I think both myself and crappy would understand either team winning this. There’s not really a right or wrong vote IMO, it’s very close. It’s why I have to bring out the xfactor which in this instance is Pele, and for overall World Cup influence and quality I think only Maradona can hold a candle to him.
@crappycraperson did you consider Didi and Varela swapping sides?
Didi looks like a LCM to me more often than not here and I can’t find videos of Varela but I thought he favoured the right side a bit more (although he could cover the whole field)
Didi looks like a LCM to me more often than not here and I can’t find videos of Varela but I thought he favoured the right side a bit more (although he could cover the whole field)
From what I researched previously, he took more of a central role with poland and had more responsibility compared to his role with juventus which obviously makes sense.
I understand your strategy. But Hagi did not play a Rivellino role in 94, not even close IMO. A large part of his brilliance was due to the fact that everything Romania did went through Hagi. He dropped deep to bring up the ball, he popped up on both flanks, and he regularly used his long passes out to both flanks to keep the opposition off balance.As seen with his goal v Colombia, he was happy to make his way out there. He had a cracking assist v Argentina from the right wing, but that’s kind of the point of having Hagi And Figo because they both hovered over the pitch in their tournaments, and have all the qualities of number 10s, which is what Pele has around him at his peak in 1970, and obviously this team is built around him.
Given the constraints I put on myself in the hope I would land Maradona or Pele, it’s not the worst remake. All players can play like a 10 when required and are lethal shooters (Figo less so in 2006)
By shunting him out to the LW to play a more supporting Rivellino role, you simply aren't getting Hagi in his full 1994 pomp.
I haven’t shunted him out to the LW mainly highlighted he can be effective from here. He has the permission and ability to create as he sees fit, similar to what Pele has around him in 1970 that’s all.
Can I get votes for my editing skills?
I honestly don't understand how you can criticize Thuram for being played at RCB but not see the issues with Hagi as a LW in a 4231 when that was not the role or position he played in 1994.
Mate, are you reading anything I’m writing? Where have I said Hagi will stay out left? There’s a reason he and Figo have brackets next to their names, it’s where they’ll start but like they both did in their respective tournaments, they’ll move across the field.
Hagis position here is simply attacking midfielder. He was effective on the left, through the middle and from the right in 1994, and he’ll be able to do that in this game.
Team Arbitrium Tactics
Formation: 4231
Instructions: one centre mid to go, one to sit. The front 4 will be fluid ***
Gheorghe Hagi- Attacking Midfielder (Starting from the left)*****
World Cup All Star 1994
3 Goals, and the catalyst for Romania's surprise run to the quarter finals, Hagi is perfect for this role. Capable of drifting out to the wing and shooting from anywhere (see his goal v Colombia) Hagi was almost impossible to shove off the ball and didn't mind getting stuck in. He will occupy Vogts fairly often in this game and with his dribbling abilities, he can easily keep a hold of the ball until Lizarazu has made his overlap.
Maybe I haven’t worded it well but it’s not the intention to leave him out there, but he can absolutely be effective when he drifts left.
Fluid front 4 to me means interchangeable.
Trying to compare my use of 94 Hagi with the use of 98 Thuram at RCB is laughable.
Formation: 4231
Instructions: one centre mid to go, one to sit. The front 4 will be fluid ***
Gheorghe Hagi- Attacking Midfielder (Starting from the left)*****
World Cup All Star 1994
3 Goals, and the catalyst for Romania's surprise run to the quarter finals, Hagi is perfect for this role. Capable of drifting out to the wing and shooting from anywhere (see his goal v Colombia) Hagi was almost impossible to shove off the ball and didn't mind getting stuck in. He will occupy Vogts fairly often in this game and with his dribbling abilities, he can easily keep a hold of the ball until Lizarazu has made his overlap.
Maybe I haven’t worded it well but it’s not the intention to leave him out there, but he can absolutely be effective when he drifts left.
Fluid front 4 to me means interchangeable.
Trying to compare my use of 94 Hagi with the use of 98 Thuram at RCB is laughable.
Yes I know exactly what you are trying to say. Hagi will play in a fluid 4231 with Figo and Pele while starting out left. He won't stay on the left. Okay, I get the point of your tactic.
And what I am telling you is that your description of your tactic is not at all the role Hagi played for Romania in 1994. He started and played mostly centrally only popping up on the left flank occasionally.
Everything Romania did ran through Hagi. Everything your team does, does not run through Hagi. Hagi remain central and dropped deep to control the tempo of the game. That is not how you are describing your tactic with your emphasis on 1970 Pele remake and putting Hagi in a Rivellino role and telling him to occupy Vogts frequently. His role for Romania was nothing like occupying a full back fairly often is my point.
I think you have missed the boat on WHY Hagi had so phenomenal a tournament against such class opposition in 1994. The tactic maximized his influence on the pitch in a central role. Your tactic does not maximize his influence on the pitch in a central role.
Like I said, he can do the role you ask but you can't expect the same level of influence he had in 1994 from the role you assigned.
@oneniltothearsenal im of the opinion that the level of influence Pele Has on this game would elevate Hagi to another level. Everything I’m asking of him in this game, he demonstrated he’s capable of throughout that World Cup. But admittedly, if I didn’t have Pele, Hagi would be playing where he is.
It's interesting that almost every game we've had this debate about players, usually from slightly less talented countries, who have had standout tournaments playing almost in a free role as a roaming attacker off the main striker. There was Robben for Holland, Boniek for Poland, Stoichkov for Bulgaria, and now Hagi for Romania. They all basically had freedom to tear up shit where they felt like it. Although it would be disingenuous to shunt them into purely a touchline-hugging role, it's only fair that we give managers some leeway to incorporate them in their teams because, despite having a notional central role, they were all equally effective in wide areas.
@Gio @Arbitrium
Hagi excelled specifically because the tactic freed him. It is simply different than a tactic asking Hagi to occupy a full back fairly often. That is too massive a change to just assume Hagi would have the same influence which is all I am saying - not that he would be poor or is a rotten choice. Its a different beast for Hagi to be effective in a wide role in a tactic designed to have others occupying the fullback intentionally to free Hagi than a tactic where Hagi is the one being asked to occupy the full back often.
Some tactics are simply effective specifically because they are based around freeing up their genius to give him the space to create. Romania in 1994 was an epitome of this type of tactic.
A 4231 with a fluid 3 behind the striker is simply a different system when Hagi is being asked specifically to occupy a full back "fairly often".
Again, I am not saying that Hagi can't do the role, I just think its illogical to presume he has the same influence in a different role and different system than the one he excelled in that was built around him.
Its literally like putting Maradona or Zico out wide in a 4231
Hagi excelled specifically because the tactic freed him. It is simply different than a tactic asking Hagi to occupy a full back fairly often. That is too massive a change to just assume Hagi would have the same influence which is all I am saying - not that he would be poor or is a rotten choice. Its a different beast for Hagi to be effective in a wide role in a tactic designed to have others occupying the fullback intentionally to free Hagi than a tactic where Hagi is the one being asked to occupy the full back often.
Some tactics are simply effective specifically because they are based around freeing up their genius to give him the space to create. Romania in 1994 was an epitome of this type of tactic.
A 4231 with a fluid 3 behind the striker is simply a different system when Hagi is being asked specifically to occupy a full back "fairly often".
Again, I am not saying that Hagi can't do the role, I just think its illogical to presume he has the same influence in a different role and different system than the one he excelled in that was built around him.
Its literally like putting Maradona or Zico out wide in a 4231
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I think it’s a bit easier to tolerate when Pele is the CAM
Yes, Pele did great to stitch up the front 4 in 1970. But to assume that it means he would make any front 4 work in this draft seems like a get out of jail card. Bringing that kind of logic means any half decent team with Maradona should win this draft since Diego 86 would drag them across the line.
I don’t have much issues with Hagi on left ( though I 100% support the argument that complaining about Thuram as RCB and then playing Hagi as LAM in this draft is odd), given I don’t seen him being a difference makes against likes of Varela, Cerezo and Vogts.
I don’t have much issues with Hagi on left ( though I 100% support the argument that complaining about Thuram as RCB and then playing Hagi as LAM in this draft is odd), given I don’t seen him being a difference makes against likes of Varela, Cerezo and Vogts.
@crappycraperson whats your take on Maicons influence in this game?
Thuram can't really catch a break that lad. I recall Gio/Theon doing the same in the international draft tucking him in a back 5 with Zanetti at RWB.Arbitrium savaged our decision to play Thuram at RCB and I'm now behaving like a petulant child as we're getting viciously rogered in our match and I'm annoyed about it
Yours decision is more understandable tho, as you also have Cafu in even more pivotal RWB role, but then again a flat back 4 with Thuram in international peak/WC draft is a great opportunity to send a man up the pitch instead of going in a back 5. Thuram was fecking great in both phases in the game and based on that form wouldn't look off against any LW in history whilst also providing support of the attack.
Lots to like about both teams. Unlucky to be facing each other that early in the competition.
Crappy's front 4 is fantastic - also maximizing Kocsis ability in the air and getting the service both from the wings and Didi providing through passes. In midfield I think Varela and Cerezo should be swapped personally. Varela is best at anchor and protecting the defence whilst Cerezo is more suited in a bit of a B2B role in that formation.
Vogts is the ideal foil to Garrincha, whilst Cole is providing some width on the left. Costacurta/Forster is a solid pair.
Arbitrium's team on the other hand IMO has advantage in midfield, especially when you factor in Pele putting a shift in. Tardelli and Neeskens is really as good as it gets in terms of double pivot base and a fluid front four in Figo, Hagi(in that 1994 form), Pele and Careca (who is also a great fit stilistically) would definitely give the opposition all sorts of trouble.
Passarella is the outstanding defender on the pitch and whilst Lizarazu provided a lot of width and support to the attack on the left side, he was really solid defensively and to me the best LB that tournament.
Lizarazu is a great foil for Hagi who would most likely hover around in attack, same can be said about Figo and Pele of course.
Arbitrium edges it to me in terms of star quality. Pele is easily the most impressive performance on international tournament alongside Maradona, whilst Passarella, Neeskens, Lizarazu, Tardelli and Hagi have put also as good as it gets performances in their respective positions.
Crappy's front 4 is fantastic - also maximizing Kocsis ability in the air and getting the service both from the wings and Didi providing through passes. In midfield I think Varela and Cerezo should be swapped personally. Varela is best at anchor and protecting the defence whilst Cerezo is more suited in a bit of a B2B role in that formation.
Vogts is the ideal foil to Garrincha, whilst Cole is providing some width on the left. Costacurta/Forster is a solid pair.
Arbitrium's team on the other hand IMO has advantage in midfield, especially when you factor in Pele putting a shift in. Tardelli and Neeskens is really as good as it gets in terms of double pivot base and a fluid front four in Figo, Hagi(in that 1994 form), Pele and Careca (who is also a great fit stilistically) would definitely give the opposition all sorts of trouble.
Passarella is the outstanding defender on the pitch and whilst Lizarazu provided a lot of width and support to the attack on the left side, he was really solid defensively and to me the best LB that tournament.
Lizarazu is a great foil for Hagi who would most likely hover around in attack, same can be said about Figo and Pele of course.
Arbitrium edges it to me in terms of star quality. Pele is easily the most impressive performance on international tournament alongside Maradona, whilst Passarella, Neeskens, Lizarazu, Tardelli and Hagi have put also as good as it gets performances in their respective positions.
brilliant. You should do the whole actions from now on. from gk all the way to the goal. Reckon would be fun to make something like thatHmmm, leave it with me!
Bumpity bump bump
Garrincha 1962 deserves more credit. As does Didi for 1958.
As a pure 9, only better forwards than Kocsis in this draft are Ronaldo and Muller.
Vogts and Cole are as solid as a full back pair can be.
Finally, Varela leading Uraguay to an epic WC triumph in 1950 deserves a mention. A Keane before Keane if you will.
Garrincha 1962 deserves more credit. As does Didi for 1958.
As a pure 9, only better forwards than Kocsis in this draft are Ronaldo and Muller.
Vogts and Cole are as solid as a full back pair can be.
Finally, Varela leading Uraguay to an epic WC triumph in 1950 deserves a mention. A Keane before Keane if you will.
@idmanager
@P-Nut0712
You were both voting on fine margins. Maybe my latest professional video effort changes your minds
@P-Nut0712
You were both voting on fine margins. Maybe my latest professional video effort changes your minds