WC All-time All-stars Round 1: Balu vs ThisIsTheOne

[Thisistheone]

Here shows how influencial Gascoigne was. A genuine star of Italia 90. The way he runs at that Dutch defence is particularly eye catching


Watch this video for evidence of how Gazza can explode into a game and get at the opposition's back line, bypassing their midfield. And importantly, cause problems for full backs.


I just hope he doesn't hack Davids down and goes all emotional:

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I like the Cruyff role. He would be very hard to contain properly in this set-up, drifting around, seeking to beat his man and create openings. And that right side is obviously deadly - a truly great combination that is certain to create something sooner or later.

Now, on the other hand, I see problems in the middle for Balu's side. It looks too much, simply put - not in the sense of formation as such (the numerical advantage can be dealt with in various ways) but in the sense of sheer individual quality. Will Balu's boys be able to contain an AM duo from hell in Charlton and Gazza?

Charlton fires from distance, Gilmar manages to get his hands on it, but there's no way he can hold it - and who's lurking in that box?

Not voting yet - and kudos to both managers for excellent write-ups and team selections. Brilliant stuff.

 

[Thisistheone]

My post isn't that much text, I was just replying to rpitroda first .

I'm really glad I picked Davids, he's just so perfect to play against Gazza. I can see Gascoigne stealing Davids glasses at half time though, might be a bit of a problem . I hope he has a 2nd pair available.

Haha! Don't encourage the daft sod.

 

[Balu]

Okay I fight the midfield battle a bit different to TITO, but here we go. There's something that's driving my crazy since 1982 when everyone started raving about that magic square and how brilliant it is.

Here's my theory...

... there is no 4vs3 numerical advantage in football, it simply doesn't exist. Sounds strange? I'll try to explain, so if you're into tactics, go with it, even it might seem idiotic at first. (You can still call me a fool in the end, I don't mind ).

Numerical advantage in possession means, I've always a free passing lane available, right? That's the idea.

So there's 2vs1, well, no need to explain anything, obviously defending alone against 2 sucks.

There's 3vs2, we all know the 3 man midfield discussion all too well, right, but I'll love to use pictures, so here is one.

Spoiler

Whatever the 2 defenders try to do, there's always a passing option available or the player with the ball can move forward himself. So you need a 3rd defender. Here you go, midfield domination gone.

Spoiler

Okay, we're getting somewhere, now we add the 4th midfielder in possession, 4vs3 now:

Spoiler

It's still only 3 defenders, but Defender 1 is closing down the DM in possession while at the same time blocking the passing lane towards the 2nd CM. The angles are so small, that the 4th midfielder can't move anywhere to actually be available for an open pass, so it's still up to one of the 2 midfielders close to the ball to find a way to become available.

Now it gets really interesting and I hope it shows why the magic square is so vulnerable against pressing, the 4th defender comes into play.

Spoiler

The 4th defender will create a 1vs2 situation which means the DM will be forced to pass back to one of the defenders or try to kick it forward and hope for the best. The 4222 lacks width, his fullbacks need to be careful because the wings are already outnumbered and if they move forward to build a triangle out wide in midfield, my fullbacks can cover them.

That's really the idea behind what I called 'hunting for the ball' in my defensive tactics in the OP with Cruyff as my 4th defender while Forlan stays with the centerback closer to the ball. You need triangles to play through pressing, but you can't build triangles in a 4222. If you don't believe that actually works, well them I'm in trouble, big big trouble. (It works though, just watch some of the videos I linked to in the op).

 

[RoadTrip]

I enjoyed reading your replies. Certainly made my decision harder. A lot is residing on this midfield battle eh =P.

I really do rate Davids and Gascoigne. It's just so hard to see who'd win there.

 

[Thisistheone]

Charlton fires from distance, Gilmar manages to get his hands on it, but there's no way he can hold it - and who's lurking in that box?

Not voting yet - and kudos to both managers for excellent write-ups and team selections. Brilliant stuff.

Only one of the finest forwards in World Cup history, Paolo Rossi.

In all honestly though it's a good point you bring up because that is something that will very likely happen during the game.

 

[RoadTrip]

Balu, fantastic analysis there I must say. Really enjoyed reading that. My only issue is, well two issues;

1. Tito has the quality in midfield to make that count.
2. You're forgetting that his midfield may not always be a rigid 4. Certainly his fourth MF won't always be completing the square. It's that movement of him that causes the concern.

 

[Theon]

I like the effort in the analysis there but its clearly a flawed point - TITO's players are all positioned in a rigid, set position yet Balu's defenders are positioned perfectly to counter it.. Point being that its an incredibly selective representation.

 

[Thisistheone]

Here's my theory...
That's really the idea behind what I called 'hunting for the ball' in my defensive tactics in the OP with Cruyff as my 4th defender while Forlan stays with the centerback closer to the ball. You need triangles to play through pressing, but you can't build triangles in a 4222. If you don't believe that actually works, well them I'm in trouble, big big trouble. (It works though, just watch some of the videos I linked to in the op).

I see where you're coming from, and the diagrams make sense, as isolated incidents. However, there's more players on the pitch and therefore more options than you show. If a man is not available, then the pass goes elsewhere. To a full back or centre back, and then to a free man in midfield. The other problem is, my players don't stand still. They will move around. The magic square easily becomes a diamond, like the French showed. There are triangles aplenty then.

Also, all it takes is for Charlton, Gazza etc to beat his man instead of passing, and there's a big advantage again. We really can not under-estimate the quality in my midfield to bypass a solid but basic defensive strategy.

 

[RoadTrip]

I like the effort in the analysis there but its clearly a flawed point - TITO's players are all positioned in a rigid, set position yet Balu's defenders are positioned perfectly to counter it.. Point being that its an incredibly selective representation.

Indeed - same point I just raised.

 

[Balu]

Balu, fantastic analysis there I must say. Really enjoyed reading that. My only issue is, well two issues;

1. Tito has the quality in midfield to make that count.
2. You're forgetting that his midfield may not always be a rigid 4. Certainly his fourth MF won't always be completing the square. It's that movement of him that causes the concern.

Yeah obviously, but I really believe I could score a few in transition after I win the ball back through that pressing, which imo makes up for the risk. Also it's not that easy for his 4th midfielder. He can't move anywhere to become available directly, so he needs to pass through another player, which gives me time to regroup. Also de Boer is brilliant in reading the game and can step forward to intercept passes, if one gets through. That's part of the plan as well. I can't think of a better way to defend against him, because like I said before, I don't have the players to defend against him around or in the penalty box, I've not chosen them for it. I'll deny him the midfield without sacrificing my attacking threat. If he finds a way through, well done, he has brilliant players after all.

 

[RoadTrip]

I see where you're coming from, and the diagrams make sense, as isolated incidents. However, there's more players on the pitch and therefore more options than you show. If a man is not available, then the pass goes elsewhere. To a full back or centre back, and then to a free man in midfield. The other problem is, my players don't stand still. They will move around. The magic square easily becomes a diamond, like the French showed. There are triangles aplenty then.

Also, all it takes is for Charlton, Gazza etc to beat his man instead of passing, and there's a big advantage again. We really can not under-estimate the quality in my midfield to bypass a solid but basic defensive strategy.

Nicely put. However just to balance the points I just made against Balu for fairness, I don't think Forland or Jairzinho would be standing around biting their nails...

 

[RoadTrip]

Yeah obviously, but I really believe I could score a few in transition after I win the ball back through that pressing, which imo makes up for the risk. Also it's not that easy for his 4th midfielder. He can't move anywhere to become available directly, so he needs to pass through another player, which gives me time to regroup. Also de Boer is brilliant in reading the game and can step forward to intercept passes, if one gets through. That's part of the plan as well. I can't think of a better way to defend against him, because like I said before, I don't have the players to defend against him around or in the penalty box, I've not chosen them for it. I'll deny him the midfield without sacrificing my attacking threat. If he finds a way through, well done, he has brilliant players after all.

Stop it, you keep making it harder for me =P.

 

[Thisistheone]

Nicely put. However just to balance the points I just made against Balu for fairness, I don't think Forland or Jairzinho would be standing around biting their nails...

For sure. It really is like a game of chess with my full backs and his wings. Schnellinger pushing forward to join the attack asks Jairzinho to put in a shift and track. Does he enjoy that? Same for Zanetti on the other side. Yet if my wing backs fly forward, they could easily get caught out. Dangerous. Hopefully someone as good a leader as Baresi can organize this.

 

[Balu]

I like the effort in the analysis there but its clearly a flawed point - TITO's players are all positioned in a rigid, set position yet Balu's defenders are positioned perfectly to counter it.. Point being that its an incredibly selective representation.

Reposition them if you want to, the point with the triangle and the 4th midfielder not available for an open pass still stands. I used his basic formation, because that's how he wants to line up in possession? If not, I'm happy to adapt.

I don't mind to proven wrong, so go ahead. The theory is that his 4th midfielder is always another pass away, just like my fullbacks or my AM. So it's not a 4vs3 advantage in midfield?

 

[RoadTrip]

For sure. It really is like a game of chess with my full backs and his wings. Schnellinger pushing forward to join the attack asks Jairzinho to put in a shift and track. Does he enjoy that? Same for Zanetti on the other side. Yet if my wing backs fly forward, they could easily get caught out. Dangerous. Hopefully someone as good a leader as Baresi can organize this.

Indeed.

Honestly I'm loving this hehe, even though my game is on haha! One of the closest draft games I've seen.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

A possible key element here (re: the midfield battle) could be Gazza's sheer dribbling ability. He was a wicked, wicked dribbler of the ball. It involves a risk, obviously, but he could in theory pick up the ball (if so from a fairly deep position) and then proceed to "simply" beat his man, thus opening up the field again. To have a midfielder who is so exceptionally good at carrying the ball past defenders is a great edge - it's something you can definitely use to overcome certain issues of pressing.

And Charlton wasn't half bad at beating his man either.

 

[Balu]

For sure. It really is like a game of chess with my full backs and his wings. Schnellinger pushing forward to join the attack asks Jairzinho to put in a shift and track. Does he enjoy that? Same for Zanetti on the other side. Yet if my wing backs fly forward, they could easily get caught out. Dangerous. Hopefully someone as good a leader as Baresi can organize this.

Alberto can cover Schnellinger? Jairzinho stays, I called him the linchpin of all my counterattacks in the op , I tried to explain him the concept of pressing, but he doesn't understand English, it was all so difficult, so because your strikers aren't really a big help in the build-up, I'm fine giving him the freedom to stay upfront. But I don't really see how Schnellinger running into the arms of Carlos Alberto helps .

 

[Thisistheone]

Indeed.

Honestly I'm loving this hehe, even though my game is on haha! One of the closest draft games I've seen.

Going to make an effort to get involved in yours as soon as this midfield battle is discussed.

Reposition them if you want to, the point with the triangle and the 4th midfielder not available for an open pass still stands. I used his basic formation, because that's how he wants to line up in possession? If not, I'm happy to adapt.

I don't mind to proven wrong, so go ahead. The theory is that his 4th midfielder is always another pass away, just like my fullbacks or my AM. So it's not a 4vs3 advantage in midfield?

There is a 4v3 advantage because players move, not static. If Charlton moves in front of his marker, he quickly exchanges a one-two with Tardelli and I'm away. Just because there's a man next to Charlton, doesn't mean he can't recieve the ball and pass to a spare man.

There's also the player dribbling factor. A player doesn't have to pass. Charlton and Gazza can beat a man. In fact, going man to man like your diagrams show, with my midfiled would be a dangerous idea. It leaves no room for error.

 

[Thisistheone]

Having food Balu, be back soon.

 

[Balu]

There is a 4v3 advantage because players move, not static. If Charlton moves in front of his marker, he quickly exchanges a one-two with Tardelli and I'm away. Just because there's a man next to Charlton, doesn't mean he can't recieve the ball and pass to a spare man.

There's also the player dribbling factor. A player doesn't have to pass. Charlton and Gazza can beat a man.

But that doesn't change that it's again 3vs3? My defenders move as well? That's what I meant by the 4th midfielder is always another pass away, you need to go through a second player and the way your 4 man midfield is setup, it's difficult.

 

[Balu]

Having food Balu, be back soon.

Ah great idea, I need a break.

I think this is great by the way, don't really care if I win or loose .

 

[Annahnomoss]

This is a great debate and the "problem with the magic square" post may be the best I've seen in these drafts.

It could have benefited from Cruyff also being included in it to show it is a 4 vs 4 in reality. Now it suddenly looked like Balu would leave a CM completely free with so much space - which must be a mistake?

I thought the following tactic would be deployed to nullify the magic square and also force the possession and build-up to be done by TITO's centre backs and the DM's.

Tardelli---Cruyff----Cerezo---
Gazza---Cueleman---Charlton
Davids----------------Haan-

 

[Annahnomoss]

The above would then develop to a defense of:
Zanetti---------------------------------Schnellinger
Forlan--Tardelli---Cruyff----Cerezo---Jairzinho
--------Gazza---Cueleman---Charlton
--Marzolini--Davids------Haan---C.Albero
For me the Magic of the "Magic Square" relies on Cruyff simply not dropping down which splits them up and forces the play to be at the centre backs which will be tooth-less possession.

 

[Balu]

A possible key element here (re: the midfield battle) could be Gazza's sheer dribbling ability. He was a wicked, wicked dribbler of the ball. It involves a risk, obviously, but he could in theory pick up the ball (if so from a fairly deep position) and then proceed to "simply" beat his man, thus opening up the field again. To have a midfielder who is so exceptionally good at carrying the ball past defenders is a great edge - it's something you can definitely use to overcome certain issues of pressing.

And Charlton wasn't half bad at beating his man either.

True, I expect one of them to drop deep to become available anyhow. If they start dribbling, I want it to be as far away as possible from my penalty area though, it's way less likely that they play a precise defense splitting pass out of their own half or after running over half the pitch if they get through with a dribbling, it also gives me a bit of time to get back or for my fullbacks to intervene.

I'm not saying that I have a rocksolid defense, like I said before. I expect to create a few chances by turning defense into offense and I want to make it as difficult as possible for him to use his incredible strength in attack, which really is around my penalty area. If I turn him into a counterattacking team, I think I'll win, because that wouldn't let his players become as devastating as they can be.

 

[RoadTrip]

One things for sure, reading this at least takes away from United losing again at the moment.

 

[Balu]

It could have benefited from Cruyff also being included in it to show it is a 4 vs 4 in reality. Now it suddenly looked like Balu would leave a CM completely free with so much space - which must be a mistake?

It really was a general post about the 4vs3 advantage, that's why I also chose different colours than we both have in the op. It's not the only way it will always play out, it's more of an example out of quite a lot of possible situations.

And it's not a mistake that the 4th midfielder isn't marked, he can't receive the ball directly, that's the important point about it. I used the last picture to show what would happen when my 4th defender comes from behind to help out, which is a common situation in pressing football, after all I will loose the ball quite a few times when Cruyff crosses in from the left wing, so Cruyff wouldn't be in midfield to cover someone. The idea in pressing is that you can leave the one player open, so that you can create those 1vs2s against the player in possession to win the ball. Just watch this.


It also shows that this extra pass for a 1-2 to get the 4th midfielder in possession really takes enough time for the players to start all over again against the next one. I don't mind if someone believes that TITO's players will find a way through, but it really works like that, I don't think someone can say the idea behind it is flawed, just because the opponent moves.

 

[Thisistheone]

The beauty of the 4-2-2-2 is how slick and exciting it is. Brazil '82 thrilled the world using the system with big flaws at the back and up front. They got pressed and simply swept it aside. Teams ended up being forced to counter it, not let the 4222 counter them. As Italy showed in 82.

Transition from the back to attack will be comfortable since Baresi has so much time on the ball, given that Cruyff is so occupied with pressing and the midfield battle.

Let's just say, for arguments sake, it does become 4 v 4 in midfield. I still see my players getting the upper hand. If Cruyff is so occupied with defensive duties, Charlton becomes the most dangerous weapon on the pitch. My two forwards are also not just there to look pretty. Their impact should not be ignored. I see more goals from my side the way this is panning out.

 

[RoadTrip]

I'm starting to edge towards Tito here if I'm honest... Gonna take more time to decide though.

 

[Theon]

I don't mind to proven wrong, so go ahead. The theory is that his 4th midfielder is always another pass away, just like my fullbacks or my AM. So it's not a 4vs3 advantage in midfield?

I don't understand it Balu, I'm not trying to be difficult here. People say its a 4 vs 3 because he has 4 players in the midfield, all moving and available for a pass. You just have 3 players in there, so centrally he has an advantage.

I'm not at all doubtful on this, it's an advantage you always have with a diamond or magic square - the negative being you are exposed elsewhere, such as the flanks

 

[Balu]

Cruyff has done this throughout his career. Rinus Michels asked the players ahead of the worldcup if they want to play that exhausting style of football that made his Ajax team so successful and they all agreed and despite all that workrate they were just as exciting to watch as Brazil '82. Cruyff doesn't loose anything of his brilliance because he has to work in defense.

 

[Balu]

I don't understand it Balu, I'm not trying to be difficult here. People say its a 4 vs 3 because he has 4 players in the midfield, all moving and available for a pass. You just have 3 players in there, so centrally he has an advantage.

I'm not at all doubtful on this, it's an advantage you always have with a diamond or magic square - the negative being you are exposed elsewhere, such as the flanks

Phew, I don't think I can explain it better as I already have, but I'll try. Of course it's true that you have 4 players in a certain area against 3 players if we ignore all the movement around them like for example, fullbacks making themselves available or attacking players dropping deep.

But you can't use the 4 players as an advantage, at least nowhere to the same devastating effect as you can do it with 3vs2, because you always need that extra pass to get the 4th player invovled, which takes up enough time to regroup and start defending again.

It's a bit like Sacchi and his 4 man backline theory? I'll look for the quote later, but didn't he say something like he can keep a full team from scoring when his 4 defenders move as a collective unit perfectly? In a certain situation, more numbers isn't a real advantage anymore, because you simply can't use them. Basically the whole idea of pressing football is based on the idea of triangles and how to defend against them. I really can't explain it better, but it works.

edit:
found the Sacchi thing, not that it's a perfect example to prove my point, but well, it's pretty interesting anyway

Sacchi used a drill to prove his philosophy on defensive structure – that five organised defenders would always beat ten disorganised ones. He would set out a team of five (four defenders and a goalkeeper) vs. ten attackers; the attackers had 15 minutes to score, without restrictions. Sacchi stated “I would do this all the time and they never scored – not once.”

/edit2:
And I don't mind talking this through, I also don't mind if anyone proves me wrong, so you're not difficult at all. But that's really all I've got on tactics, just trying to do the whole idea of total football justice here.

 

[antohan]

The beauty of the 4-2-2-2 is how slick and exciting it is.

Actually, I find it dour myself, which is what I'm really struggling with here. I absolutely love the dynamism of Balu's attack and how it suits each player to a T, but man for man you have a very strong side that can cope with what is thrown at them and the disparity between your front two and his CB pair is monstruous, add Charlton and Gascoigne behind them, Cerezo's passing and Tardelli (not a limited DM himself) and I can see his offside trap being all over the shop. I'm not fussed about all this 4 vs 3 nonsense, I just really rate your four to rape that high line.

I don't really rate Zanetti here though, had you picked Cafú it may have made up my mind by now. There's no doubt in my mind both sides would go through against either of the teams in the other game, which is unfortunate.

 

[Thisistheone]

Personal preference Anto but you make good points.

It's been the Cruyff show so far yet unfairly since we have Charlton also playing. Throw in my forwards, who I again try and bring into the discussion but gets ignored and there's surely goals in my side. Lots of them.

 

[Balu]

Yeah, I dragged it a bit too much into tactics, my bad. My Brazilian right wing isn't mentioned enough as well.

 

[antohan]

In a certain situation, more numbers isn't a real advantage anymore, because you simply can't use them. Basically the whole idea of pressing football is based on the idea of triangles and how to defend against them. I really can't explain it better, but it works.

I do agree with this. Nominal "dominance by numbers" doesn't do it for me, it's the collective that matters. That said, the quality of his four is such that you can at best hope to cope with them, both sides will get chances and Rossi-Vavá vs. Schulz-De Boer stands out as a massively one-sided affair, more so than Jairzinho-Carlos Alberto on Schnellinger.

Why? On the same grounds as your Sacchi quote, with the collective defensive unit performing effectively the 2 vs 1 can be contained (Schnellinger-Baresi are no pushovers), more so than your CBs being left stranded in no man's land. I do wonder though whether Vavá would be permanently offside like the Brazilians in 74. Keep him onside and I reckon Tito edges it.

 

[antohan]

Personal preference Anto but you make good points.

It's been the Cruyff show so far yet unfairly since we have Charlton also playing. Throw in my forwards, who I again try and bring into the discussion but gets ignored and there's surely goals in my side. Lots of them.

Cruyff is quite rightly being talked about, he has always been underrated and rightly so because I don't think we ever saw him in the right setup, which this is. The overlooking of the quality in your side is mind-boggling though.

Yeah, I dragged it a bit too much into tactics, my bad. My Brazilian right wing isn't mentioned enough as well.

Agreed. I think the more complex stuff needed some explaining and it shows how you ALSO pose a threat on the left, but the simplicity of your right flank shouldn't be overlooked, not at all.

 

[Annahnomoss]

For me the issue with Vava/Rossi against De Boer and Schulz is that Vava and Rossi will also be up against Alberto and Marzolini.

That is the trade-off of not having wide midfielders and outnumbering the midfield area. If De Boer and Schulz both miss the offside trap Alberto and Marzolini will still have worked up momentum to counter that threat behind the line.

Basically that is the main defensive job of Marzolini and Alberto.

 

[Balu]

I do agree with this. Nominal "dominance by numbers" doesn't do it for me, it's the collective that matters. That said, the quality of his four is such that you can at best hope to cope with them, both sides will get chances and Rossi-Vavá vs. Schulz-De Boer stands out as a massively one-sided affair, more so than Jairzinho-Carlos Alberto on Schnellinger.

Why? On the same grounds as your Sacchi quote, with the collective defensive unit performing effectively the 2 vs 1 can be contained (Schnellinger-Baresi are no pushovers), more so than your CBs being left stranded in no man's land. I do wonder though whether Vavá would be permanently offside like the Brazilians in 74. Keep him onside and I reckon Tito edges it.

Yeah, that's the whole dilemma. I can't defend deep, because I'm simply outclassed, there's no way my defenders can contain him inside the box. I have to go and push forward. I might bring Schwarzenbeck on for de Boer and sit deeper later in the game, if I'm still ahead, not sure about it yet. But for the first 70-75 minutes, I need to go ahead with pressing, off side trap, the whole total football theme.

I know why I hated to be drawn against TITO.

 

[Thisistheone]

Now that midfield has been discussed Balu, attack is next. While I agree Jairzinho is a huge threat, he's on the same side of the pitch as Tardelli, Baresi and Schnellinger. Meanwhile, Focusing on the best centre forward on the pitch, it's hard to see him not scoring, up against these centre backs.

Paolo Rossi
Both hero & fairy tale story of 1982. In terms of World Cup strikers, there’s few better. Only three players have ever been voted the best player at a World Cup and the second best player at another World Cup - Pele, Ronaldo and Paolo Rossi. Has the ability to play target man or goal poacher. Lethal in the air or on the floor.
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