What? Having a manager who is steadily on the up for 3 seasons is not something you want to support?
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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Err.. what?
Did old school fans not care if their team scored goals and league positions as long as they saw some sort of entertainment? Surely goals are entertaining?
Regarding our performances, you're right- they are quite similar to last season. However we massively grew through the last season, as we too made a terrible start like City. So there's always the potential that we too will click at some point and suddenly all our passes that take a second too long and our play breaks down start coming off and we look amazing.
Champions league.
Hypothetically all 20 teams are competing.
Good for him, but that doesn't change much. We know he's got Pep's number and I always thought Chelsea were favorites in that game however that doesn't mean he will continue to dominate a very tough league. Winning or losing that one game down't mean that we're not competitive with the other top 4.
I agree with a lot of this. If Pep and Klopp didn't exist for example, I wouldn't know how beautiful football can be in the PL. (Post Fergie)
Ole is getting great results despite us not being easy on the eye, I just don't know whether it is enough to get us over the line to a PL or CL. We will find out this season.
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Stop being pedantic. We're competing with the top 4 on pretty much an equal footing now which we weren't doing before this manager. People like to assume all our progress so far under him was inevitable and all he did was slow us rather than him being the core reason for our improvements.
It's bleedin obvious that no player is going to say that his coaches have no clue even if they had no clue.
That's not to say that they have no clue. The point is that our coaching staff has not proved yet to be able to beat the best when called upon to do so. In a match when everything is on the line like winning a trophy. I don't have much issues with Ole apart from him keeping his coaching staff who needs upgrading.
No...It was a tongue in cheek comment on being the type of fan that doesn’t sweat losing titles so much as deserving them. Don’t get me started, we scored 3 goals against Brighton last season- won the game 3-2, one of the goals was an OG and another a penalty- against Brighton who were nowhere near as solid as they are now. I could give similar specific examples for at least half of our games last season. I’m not saying anything beyond the fact that my eyes saw shite football! No analysis needed, no stats needed, no end of season recap of “look where we finished so we must have been good innit”...just used my eyeballs and saw first hand- plain slow boring uninspired attacking.
Of course it’s nice to win shit but you want to unequivocally be deserving of it(give and take a bit of luck) Although I celebrated the Rashford penalty against PSG like a maniac...I also sat down with the lads afterwards and was happy to admit we were played off the park and relied on a slice of good luck that only god or VAR could have given us. Nothing wrong with one or two smash and grabs but don’t make a habit of it!
Since Mourinho, coaches of other big teams see our threat being solely on the counter. I’m glad Ole now has the squad to change that and I hope he does.
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He does talk the talk but it seems that his staff has not been able to implement it yet. Every game is not going to free flowing but we need to stop making basic mistakes. Get our set pieces including corners sorted out. Get our passing more crisp and more accurate.
Some people also forget that even before Pep and Klopp, PL had top managers like SAF and Arsene who played good attractive passing football that was successful.
So what? We need to stop this obsession with cup competitions as some kind of 'ultimate measure of success'. The league is, always has been, and always will be, the one true measure of the quality of a football team.
Considering that the average tenure of a Premier league manager is 69.4 games, how big of a sample size would you deem appropriate?
Curious as to what you mean by that, and what it is, specifically, you'd want improving. For me, we've undeniably improved the way we play. We're more assertive, our fullbacks are far more impactful, we have plenty of movement in behind, we aren't nearly as reliant on counter attacking. As a rule, the goals we've conceded have tended to come from a horrendous piece of misfortune, or individual error.
All I see here is individual brilliance from 5 players, all at the same time.
The amount of games that is relevant to the question about in game management is far less.
I would not count any game where the setup from the beginning works as part of the in game reaction sample. And I think mostly it works, so there is rarely a need to react in game with tactical changes.
And I have to admit I am far from watching every United game, so my sample size of games I actually can rate is mostly limited to the CL and some match reports about the PL. But in the CL especially there were some questionable games like now against Bern or the loss in Leipzig last season, where Ole did not react the right way in my opinion.
Still I think the sample size is large enough to see that this kind of tactical reaction is not Oles strength. But it is relatively small because he mostly prepares his team the right way.
10 years I suspect, and even then there'd be some sort of excuse as to why "it's not long enough of a time frame" -
So you think a team should absolutely batter a team and then that "tactic" should not be used?
If you think when a team comfortably wins 1-0, 2-0, 3-0 that there are literally 0 in game changes, then you're naive. There is definitely in game tactic changes throughout a football match, regardless if you are winning comfortably or not, there will be changes.
True, but I just think the bigger the changes are, the worse Ole often is at doing them (not always), or he does not dare to change anything meaningful despite things going wrong, but this is were it really counts or you drop out of CL or lose the EL final etc.
So you think a team should absolutely batter a team and then that "tactic" should not be used?
If you think when a team comfortably wins 1-0, 2-0, 3-0 that there are literally 0 in game changes, then you're naive. There is definitely in game tactic changes throughout a football match, regardless if you are winning comfortably or not, there will be changes.
What I think is simply that you don't need big changes when you are the better team. United usually is by far the better team on the pitch, so you usually only need to adjust details in game, but not the overall plan how to play.
Yes most goals are scored when players make individual errors.
The West Ham game too. Maguire, McTominay and Varane. All three made individual errors for their goal. I would add Shaw for not following his man too. It's the job of the coaches to eliminate these individual errors. There goal was avoidable at all phases.
Stands to reason then, that Ole is doing a lot better than most at this judging by our results over the last season and a bit.
The West Ham goal came from a heavily deflected shot. You can be a pedant about things that could've been different, but you can say that with every single goal. To put that down as a coaching issue is a stretch. The second was a handball. Again, the coaches can reasonably be expected to 'coach' that out of his game.
It's obvious that better individual players would be better than not so good players. He has got a good squad of players. If our ambition is being in the CL then he is a good enough manager and his coaching staff with this squad is probably going to keep achieving it.
If he wants to raise the standard and win the PL or CL then he has got to do lot more.
That is where I stopped reading.
So I'm confused here.
So you're telling me that it's the coaching staff who need to coach players not to make individual mistakes, yet when there's individual brilliance that has come from the individual and not the coaching staff? Am I close?
I mean your wrong about individual players being better than not so good players, as without coaching, application and correct training then we are back at Moyes's level aren't we?
It is when you have the CB dragged out to areas he doesn't have to go. Then have the FB not following his man. Even then it was alright. But for McTominay to leave his man and run to the box and let the Hammers player take the shot. It may have been deflected but a shot from that area is scoreable.
Didn't our goals conceeded go up last season from the prior season? It was also way above our recent years despite a better defence.
A lot of our issues on defense were the same recurring issues worringly. We've spent to improve Lindelof which is certainly one way to improve but it won't improve all aspects.
With the quality of Varane you'd hope we drastically improve at the back either way.
If a player handles the ball like Shaw did or AWB's tackle there is nothing much a coach can do.
But if CBs get dragged over, the DM leaves his man in the middle and the FB don't follow his man, all that coming from our left side being completely overloaded for some time and we don't take remedial action then it's on the coach.
We had a healthy amount of goalkeeping howlers last season, that certainly looks to have been resolved so far.
Also Varane will certainly help out with dealing with set pieces which were also our nemesis last season.
And when exactly has all that happened this season?
Does the coach not then deserve credit for a free flowing move which ended in what should have been a penalty for example?
That'll apply to every goal then, and therefore all can be identified as a coaching issue. It wasn't even a big chance, just a wicked deflection.
Ergo by this metric, when you score more goals than you concede it points to good coaching, ergo, we are a very well coached team.
Yet the poster is arguing from the other side.
This place is so confusing
Agreed.
And a set piece coach being employed. (This is after all a coaching criticism thread)
It is almost as if Ole is identifying our weaknesses, and trying to remove them, just to undermine Johnny no-name on the Internet. The cad
Isn't that just a long standing reality of football?
You can have teams of lower quality have very solid defences because the structure and organisation means errors get reduced naturally.
Just because that's true it doesn't mean that individual technical brilliance must also be coaching. One is structural
Which again points to good coaching, where were we weakest? Ah, let's improve that!!
Would be poor coaching not too.
Exactly. I added to the post you quoted, saying as much.Which again points to good coaching, where were we weakest? Ah, let's improve that!!
Would be poor coaching not too.
Absolutely.Ergo by this metric, when you score more goals than you concede it points to good coaching, ergo, we are a very well coached team.
Yet the poster is arguing from the other side.
This place is so confusing
What's interesting is we've also scored 50% more goals from open play than any other team. Our 'patterns of play' can't be that bad then!
There's definitely an element of truth to that yes,
But you can't have your cake and eat it.
People cannot claim that mistakes point to poor coaching, yet brilliant 30 yard screamers don't, that's not how it works.
You go go as granular as you wish, for example...
You can take Lingards goal against West Ham, a brilliant individual goal, however there were runners around him opening up the space for Lingard to run into.
The coaching no doubt is why the runners were making the runs, without that you don't score.
But, but that is down to individual errors by the opposition, that their coach could do nothing about.
It was a wicked deflection because he his kick was badly directed. Are you happy having our CB dragged out to the touchline because it has been happening for a while. That our left was getting overloaded. Our DM leaving his man in the centre just outside the box?
As for the set piece specialist, so far it's not been working. It may work given time but we all can see the corners were for Maguire. It's on the match day thread too.
Ole as a manager is good. His coaching staff so far has not been top class. It's three years now they have been at United. With the players we have we should be winning a trophy.
But, but that is down to individual errors by the opposition, that their coach could do nothing about.