Poch and Nagelsmann both making pretty good cases for their managerial credentials tonight if you ask me, even if Leipzig did throw it away with two absolute clangers.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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Well, thats your opinion and you missed the point. My point; (and i will try to explain this in as few words as possible) If Ole lost 0-2 to Liverpool in this manner, he would have been slaughtered. And so would Maguire and the rest of the def line. But Nagelsmann, who btw is an exellent manager in the making, will get excused, becouse he is, well just fecking brilliant.
Klopp outplayed him in every way this night. Leipzig was shit and the defensive lineup was naive - and Nagelsmann waited way to long to adjust.
And btw, i dont absolve Ole for any of his foults. He has made a lot of them. It just dont mean that he is a shit manager.
I don't think the bolded is true in the slightest. Leipzig created plenty of chances thanks to their tactical setup whilst not relying on individual brilliance and with even decent finishing would have been worthy of a draw. Defensively they were also very solid despite chasing the game for much of the second half against a very good counterattacking side, yet were let down by two massive and inexplicable individual errors. It's blindingly obvious that Nagelsmann did very little wrong.
Leipzig didn't play like shit. The pundits were all idiots making out the first half to be totally one-sided - 56% of the final third possession is a very far cry from "domination" as was mentioned at the half.
And what adjustment are you even talking about? Leipzig's first subs came at 65 minutes, when they were 2-0 down to two fluke goals having created the best chance from open play at 0-0. The subs were like-for-like as well - Poulsen went up and Nkunku dropped deeper into midfield where Haidara had been. Still the same 3-1-3-3 shape though.
What Ole and the coaching staff have still not addressed in a couple of years:
- The back four always being far too deep with and without the ball.
- This seasons atrocious record at set pieces, that of relegation threatened clubs.
- AWB’s poor defensive positioning (the reason for his good looking last ditch tackle requirements).
- A lack of overlapping of full backs to the by line. On the odd occasion we see it, it creates dangerous moments (eg. Shaw’s assist for Bruno on Sunday).
- Fred’s shooting similar to a six year old child.
- Runs off the ball and over the top from our front 3 of last season. They are all far too static with their back to goal.
We are currently a Bruno Fernandes injury away from something rather ugly in my view. If the above items could be addressed and improved, our reliance on Bruno to bail us out may become less necessary.
- The back four always being far too deep with and without the ball.
- This seasons atrocious record at set pieces, that of relegation threatened clubs.
- AWB’s poor defensive positioning (the reason for his good looking last ditch tackle requirements).
- A lack of overlapping of full backs to the by line. On the odd occasion we see it, it creates dangerous moments (eg. Shaw’s assist for Bruno on Sunday).
- Fred’s shooting similar to a six year old child.
- Runs off the ball and over the top from our front 3 of last season. They are all far too static with their back to goal.
We are currently a Bruno Fernandes injury away from something rather ugly in my view. If the above items could be addressed and improved, our reliance on Bruno to bail us out may become less necessary.
So the team lost this game? Not Nagelsmann and not his tactic? But the team... The 11 out there was to blame? Alone. Fluke shit goals.
Nagelsmann got the tactic 100 % right but was let down by his exellent team... Well, that puts it all in perspective.
Liverpool dominated the possession, had most shot on goals and their passing accuracy was superior to Leipzig...
But constantly bashing ole is just fine? I suppose the 5 United stuck past them were all massive errors too.
...what are you even trying to say here? I mean, the answer is very obviously yes considering the chances they missed and the two fluky Liverpool goals. It's not even the 11 that were to blame, it was Sabitzer and Mukiele completely alone. Their errors were ridiculous and had nothing to do with the broader tactical setup, which is the part of the game the manager actually can control.
Leipzig had worse players at at least 9 positions, yet could and should have gotten something from the game. Are you seriously trying to use passing accuracy to judge which manager did better? This is a joke, right? Also, today I learned that "dominating" the possession equates to having 52% of it.
I think this is a fair analysis of the coaching situation and on Ole as a manager. While I am at the very least reserving judgement until he finally completes the rebuild and I am backing him to the hilt in the meantime, I can at least see where the argument in the video is coming from.
Show me a match where Ole had a cohesive and brilliant tactical plan but was let down at both ends by his player's feckups and yet still went on to be criticised and then you'll have a proper analogy on your hands.
Pretty sure he didn’t watch the game and you’ve called his bluff. I thought Liverpool edged it but draw would have been fair - very fun to watch and I had to dual screen the PSG game although that was very one sided.
Could be remembering it wrong but didn’t United cut PSG open plenty of times, only for our forwards to miss huge chances repeatedly?
I think that's the right assessment! Leipzig certainly had a couple lucky moments (the Firmino disallowed goal which was quite close & the Salah chance that Gulasci did well on chiefly), but it's completely different game had Nkunku not fluffed his lines at 0-0 early in the second half.
Both matches were excellent I thought, at least until Kean got the 3rd and Barca got desperate.
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Problem then was Ole fecked up by not taking Fred off, which was one of the most blindingly obvious decisions a manager could ever have to make especially given the referee's leniency in not sending him off initially.
Outside of that though you're right - Ole had his tactics spot on and you were unlucky to not be out of sight when Fred was (belatedly) red carded.
Yeah the Fred decision was quite baffling. I was absolutely certain he would have been hauled at half time.
Amen to this.
There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring. In the tactical area, I think I just have more than most other players.” Johan Cruyff
This is the situation at United.
This is the situation at United.
What a silly comment. People have raised concerns, some more valid than others, based on 30 games of evidence this season in which the productivity of two players has saved us countless times while the teams performance has been way below par.
The thread then started to become more active in recent weeks after we proceeded to take 1 point from a possible 6 against the two worst teams in the league, putting in some horrendous performances on the way.
I've seen users in here make very valid points for both sides of the argument, but whether you agree or disagree I don't see the sense in personal insults.
Games like these are hardly ones that we struggle in. You'd be hard done finding many people who think we can't be a great team at counter attacking. Those aren't the aspects of the game his doubters are worried with.
Great win though, very entertaining
Yeah, I dont understand why he has to prove that. I mean United and City have spent roughly the same, Pep has made a very good team/squad out of that money, surely thats the measure of someone who is doing a good job?
What you said about Barca when he got the job is simply not true. They finished 3rd in the league losing to Real 1-4 and looked completely toothless against us in CL semi, ending the season trophyless. He changed a lot of things regarding the squad and style of play, moved several players out and gave main positions to others.
Yes we spanked RS. But there was a moment in the first half when my stream got stuck and the picture froze. Then I realized how disjointed we are. The players on the pitch were uncoordinated and at the wrong spaces. There were no lines to pass. It's not the opposition was blocking but our players were not moving to the right space.
People will say look at Rashford that he scored and assisted a goal. But can you imagine how much more productive he would be if he passes at the right time to his team mates?
How many times he runs into defenders and lose the ball or the moment to pass to his team mates is gone?
Our coaching has never been top class. Our players don't know when to pass and when to dribble. They don't know how to move into space. Our players when they get the ball, put their heads down and run with it.
People will say look at Rashford that he scored and assisted a goal. But can you imagine how much more productive he would be if he passes at the right time to his team mates?
How many times he runs into defenders and lose the ball or the moment to pass to his team mates is gone?
Our coaching has never been top class. Our players don't know when to pass and when to dribble. They don't know how to move into space. Our players when they get the ball, put their heads down and run with it.
Everton 3-3. The first half was masterful. We missed some easy chances to score a couple of more and our defenders and DDG let us down. Pogba's injury didn't help either.
PSG at home. We created more than enough that game to have won it comfortably (even with Fred's sending off) but poor finishing and lapses in concentration cost us. Everton was another, where stupid mistakes at the back cost us. Up until the second goal, I would have argued yesterday would have been another one too.
And that's all from this season and I'm sure I'm missing some others.
I won't even begin to count the defensive feck ups on the pitch (particularly in the first half of the season) which cost two or three points that occurred last year which number into the double digits. Though as a bonus, I'll give you Sevilla in the semi final of the EL last season where we absolutely battered them senseless but couldn't finish for shit and they promptly scored off their only two clear cut chances of the game. In fact, if you counted all the shots from both the QF and SF in the EL that year, we had 44 shots and only scored 2 penalties across both games.
How is the analogy looking now?
They'd already set up his backroom staff for him, started bringing in the players he wanted.
It wasn't like he just decided to go there out of nowhere, it was set up long before.
Absolute nonsense post. Last paragraph pure microscopic over the top hyperbole.
What it even mean? Reads like someone who has no grasp of football and just started watching it
Don't be silly. I played at a decent level and was coached by a CL coach. Ok European Cup those days. You can believe whatever you want. I know what I know.
Did Ole get a lot of stick after that? I thought that rightly the individuals were criticised. Agreed that he had the tactics spot on!
Again, I don't think Ole got criticised tactically in the wake of those matches, apart from PSG where he was rightfully pilloried for not taking off Fred.
I apologise if my post came across wrong because I wasn't trying to imply that Ole hasn't gotten things exactly right at times this year - I was struggling to think of matches where he got undue criticism having done nothing wrong tactically.
Thank God the picture froze! I'm literally shaking at the thought of that going by unnoticed! My palms are so sweaty I might have to buy a new keyboard after posting this. You know those videos of people almost falling off cliffs, only to regain their balance at the last possible second? I got the same feeling reading your post!
Did you manage to get a screen capture? And more importantly: have you contacted the club concerning your discovery?
What I enjoyed the most about the PSG game is that we came out to play and really went at them. We just lost a football game, but at least it was not for a lack of trying to outright win it when a draw would have been enough. It was a good example of going down with the flag held high.
It's my opinion that we are some real colossal personal mistakes away from being up there with City, instead of having to focus on securing our CL spot. We've lost 4 league matches out of 24. Our problem is not that we lose games, it's that we've let too many wins slip away by bad mistakes.
This 100%.
I don't disagree with any of that. I was hugely impressed with your performance in the PSG game and I think Ole had his tactics absolutely spot on. The problem is he torpedoed himself by not taking Fred off, which again was such a blindingly obvious move at the time and especially so in retrospect.
Well, on the CAF Ole gets stick every time we lose or draw, and even when we win.
"iTS oUr RiGhT To HaVE a MOan"
That's a fair point, but I suppose I feel perhaps a bit better placed to gauge whether criticism is valid or not given my status as a third party.
I guess my broader point is that I find it ludicrous that anyone would criticise Nagelsmann for the result against Liverpool; from my perspective he couldn't have done more. My original question was whether there were relevant examples for Ole - where he'd gotten everything spot on but been let down by his team fluffing its lines at both ends whilst receiving undue criticism. The 3-3 against Everton is probably the best example.
Anyways, I wasn't trying to WUM or anything and apologies if I've derailed the thread!
Yes, we aren't really a well coached team, but we're a team with ton of quality that will show in the majority of games. In some games we show some good tactical movement but over all, we don't really have a system. People can keep mocking "patterns of plays" and "systems tactics" and stuff but as long as this problem is present we'll never manage to win the league even though the current quality is good enough, but it will never be enough when your opponent in the league is Pep fecking Guardiola. We can outsmart him in one derby game or though but over the course of a long season, we can't take his team on with such a quality team and few brilliant moments here and there. We need a system.
I can live with a manager who is tactically limited but I think he really should get at least more experienced coaching stuff that are known for coaching offensive plays. This will help. Assistant coaches have always played a big part in Fergie's era as well.
I disagree on the Fred and PSG thing. Shit like that happens from time to time. Just look at Thursday's game, where AWB got an early booking and had a couple of other nibbles before HT. No one was mentioning it afterwards because it mattered little in the end, as we got the goals which rendered the contest over for all intents and purposes. The same would most likely have happened if Martial put away at least one of his chances early doors in the second half. As a sidebar, that PSG performance v Barca is so infuriating because it really should have been us. We were the better side across both games in the head to heads, and even when we were down to ten men we were all over them. So fecking annoying.
Ole also got plenty of criticism for Everton, particularly around the Axel substitution. There was also the Arsenal away match which came after a Sheffield United match where we collectively shat the bed. That Arsenal game was an almost pitch perfect away performance where we were compact and solid throughout the match but didn't score the 3-4 gaping clear chances we created. As a result, the agenda posters came out in droves to opine and ask why Ole is so negative in the big games and why our record is so poor. But they almost all collectively ignored the chances we created in that game and how our forwards let us down. They also don't consider that these big teams now fear and respect us in a way that they simply didn't under the previous post-SAF managers. They don't give us the space in behind and as a result we're in a war of attrition in those games. It takes two to tango in these situations but almost all the analysis on here is perhaps understandably, is focused on Ole and his apparent shortcomings.
What are peoples thoughts on Liverpool's 'coaching' this season? Why do they look no better than us at the moment?
Because Klopp or certainly Liverpool did not get a quality CB at the break. Henderson in midfield is being missed. A kid of 20 years is playing as CB in a league and such a league as the PL it is impossible to get used to it, especially coming in January. They play well but simply do not score. Klopp is right though I think he talks too much, they create enough chances to score and win most matches they have lost.
Fair enough! You'd know better than me so I'm happy to defer to your position.