We are an awfully coached team

RedRonaldo

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So we are going to finish 2nd in the league and win Europa Cup this season, I don’t think anyone would not want Ole to manage us in future?
 

Gasolin

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The only explanation for the immediate improvement in the second half is that, at halftime, Ole calmly asked his team: "Where's the passion, lads?"
Didn't Pogba say "At HF the manager spoke; we were motived"? There you go.
 

tomaldinho1

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You have ignored the entire point of my posts twice.

We do not start taking more risks, we do not become desperate and start throwing shit against the wall. We continue playing the style of play that Ole sets out and score goals and win the game. So how is that style of play poor when we win so many games? We probably concede a few too many early goals but there is a big difference between being poor and not being perfect.
I’m struggling to understand how you’re coming to these points. I have my opinion on something, you misconstrued it and are now telling me I’m ignoring the point of your posts when your point is based on something I didn’t say??

You keep adding weird extras into your posts - why are you acting as if I said ‘we start throwing shit against the wall’?? It’s impossible to have a conversation on here if you keep doing this. I feel like you’re on the defensive but you don’t need to be because what I’m saying is completely neutral and non biased as it’s a fact and can be proven by simply looking at our results against weaker teams and how a number of those games pan out.

As an aside. This thread is specifically about coaching, which in turn means it’s not really about Ole and so if you’re one of the posters who can’t differentiate Ole bashing from a normal post, please rest assured the issue with our coaching, which in my mind is very plain to see when you watch us, is down to Carrick, McKenna etc. You might think there’s no issue at all and it’s cool to have a different opinion, I’m happy to discuss that civilly, but please stop deliberately making out I’ve written something you can plainly see I have not.
 

romufc

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Been saying this. Games like this in Europe will prove it. It's all good when you are asked to defend and counter against PSG,RBL but when asked to dominate and win, we just sucks.

What was proved last night then?
 

Olecurls99

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I’m struggling to understand how you’re coming to these points. I have my opinion on something, you misconstrued it and are now telling me I’m ignoring the point of your posts when your point is based on something I didn’t say??

You keep adding weird extras into your posts - why are you acting as if I said ‘we start throwing shit against the wall’?? It’s impossible to have a conversation on here if you keep doing this. I feel like you’re on the defensive but you don’t need to be because what I’m saying is completely neutral and non biased as it’s a fact and can be proven by simply looking at our results against weaker teams and how a number of those games pan out.

As an aside. This thread is specifically about coaching, which in turn means it’s not really about Ole and so if you’re one of the posters who can’t differentiate Ole bashing from a normal post, please rest assured the issue with our coaching, which in my mind is very plain to see when you watch us, is down to Carrick, McKenna etc. You might think there’s no issue at all and it’s cool to have a different opinion, I’m happy to discuss that civilly, but please stop deliberately making out I’ve written something you can plainly see I have not.
You plainly said "we take the handbrake off" which is what he has been very capably countering and, I might add, is complete tripe.

We don't take the handbrake off. We don't make rash decisions. We're a well coached team that goes behind and then continues to play our game and win.
 

OverratedOpinion

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I’m struggling to understand how you’re coming to these points. I have my opinion on something, you misconstrued it and are now telling me I’m ignoring the point of your posts when your point is based on something I didn’t say??

You keep adding weird extras into your posts - why are you acting as if I said ‘we start throwing shit against the wall’?? It’s impossible to have a conversation on here if you keep doing this. I feel like you’re on the defensive but you don’t need to be because what I’m saying is completely neutral and non biased as it’s a fact and can be proven by simply looking at our results against weaker teams and how a number of those games pan out.

As an aside. This thread is specifically about coaching, which in turn means it’s not really about Ole and so if you’re one of the posters who can’t differentiate Ole bashing from a normal post, please rest assured the issue with our coaching, which in my mind is very plain to see when you watch us, is down to Carrick, McKenna etc. You might think there’s no issue at all and it’s cool to have a different opinion, I’m happy to discuss that civilly, but please stop deliberately making out I’ve written something you can plainly see I have not.
I have pointed out quite specifically how I think we are coached and that I disagree with your assertion that we suddenly change things when we are chasing a game and start taking a load of risks. I have not quoted the way that you have said that exactly, maybe even used some exaggerated language, pretty common in conversation. You seem to be really caught up on this which feels pedantic but if it has offended you then I apologise.

To address a couple of other key points, I am not defensive in the slightest. I have made specific points about our style of play and offered examples of good things we do in almost every game and you keep focusing on pedantic little things and not really responding which is a touch frustrating sure. Everyone thinks their argument is "non biased" and "neutral"!
 
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Sylar

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What was proved last night then?
I mean, we dominated the psg game we lost, martial especially so poor In finishing. 1-3 was not a fair reflection of the game and I'm not sure how we didn't win let alone losing
 

tomaldinho1

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You plainly said "we take the handbrake off" which is what he has been very capably countering and, I might add, is complete tripe.

We don't take the handbrake off. We don't make rash decisions. We're a well coached team that goes behind and then continues to play our game and win.
It’s an expression I elaborated on - I’m aware Ole doesn’t have a handbrake by his seat and then release it. Your last sentence seems a bit at odds with itself, which is my exact point.

What you both are saying is it is more likely that we keep conceding first due to essentially nothing other than bad luck and don’t change anything. I suggest you look at how many times we have conceded first against weaker teams compared to a few teams of equal strength and then ask yourself is it more likely to be luck or do we actually change how we play after conceding?

This is too long to bother responding to point by point.

I have pointed out quite specifically how I think we are coached and that I disagree with your assertion that we suddenly change things when we are chasing a game and start taking a load of risks. I have not quoted the way that you have said that exactly, maybe even used some exaggerated language, pretty common in conversation. You seem to be really caught up on this which feels pedantic but if it has offended you then I apologise.

To address a couple of other key points, I am not defensive in the slightest. I have made specific points about our style of play and offered examples of good things we do in almost every game and you keep focusing on pedantic little things and not really responding which is a touch frustrating sure. Everyone thinks their argument is "non biased" and "neutral"!
Can you just ask what you specifically want me to answer because looking through your posts I don’t think I’ve ducked anything?

I don’t really know the reason - as said - but I believe it’s a mix of mental/tactics and we look so much better after conceding. If you don’t agree that’s fine but multiple pundits have said it all season about us and we lead the league tables for points gained from losing positions. That to me signifies a large enough data pool to draw some basic opinions, I’m not saying these opinions are the only truth but I think it’s a fair comment to make.

It’s not pedantic sadly, it’s the only way to have a conversation on redcaf without other posters jumping in midway and then quoting me with the ‘shit at the wall’ etc. Not your fault but have seen it too many times and I actually find this conversation about how we are coached v interesting.
 

OverratedOpinion

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I don’t really know the reason - as said - but I believe it’s a mix of mental/tactics and we look so much better after conceding. If you don’t agree that’s fine but multiple pundits have said it all season about us and we lead the league tables for points gained from losing positions. That to me signifies a large enough data pool to draw some basic opinions, I’m not saying these opinions are the only truth but I think it’s a fair comment to make.

It’s not pedantic sadly, it’s the only way to have a conversation on redcaf without other posters jumping in midway and then quoting me with the ‘shit at the wall’ etc. Not your fault but have seen it too many times and I actually find this conversation about how we are coached v interesting.
We set up to attack in a pretty similar way most games, we have established patterns of play and ways to work our way into scoring opportunities. I do not believe it changes when we are chasing a game, I believe it is just effective and over 90 minutes will often pay off whether it is in the 1st minute or the 70th. With that in mind and the fact that we are truly competing for trophies and have taken the second most points in the best league in the world over the last two years, how can you support any suggestion that we are awfully coached?

I don't want an argument that says we are not perfectly coached, we aren't. But "awfully", please let me know.
 

Garethw

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Ole needs to bring in a couple of experienced, top class coaches.

Carlos Queiroz revolutionised the way we played in Europe. We need that level of coach added ASAP.
 

Crustanoid

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The only explanation for the immediate improvement in the second half is that, at halftime, Ole calmly asked his team: "Where's the passion, lads?"
He should have pressed the ‘shout’ button every ten minutes and say ‘Show some passion’
 

Olecurls99

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It’s an expression I elaborated on - I’m aware Ole doesn’t have a handbrake by his seat and then release it. Your last sentence seems a bit at odds with itself, which is my exact point.

What you both are saying is it is more likely that we keep conceding first due to essentially nothing other than bad luck and don’t change anything. I suggest you look at how many times we have conceded first against weaker teams compared to a few teams of equal strength and then ask yourself is it more likely to be luck or do we actually change how we play after conceding?


Can you just ask what you specifically want me to answer because looking through your posts I don’t think I’ve ducked anything?

I don’t really know the reason - as said - but I believe it’s a mix of mental/tactics and we look so much better after conceding. If you don’t agree that’s fine but multiple pundits have said it all season about us and we lead the league tables for points gained from losing positions. That to me signifies a large enough data pool to draw some basic opinions, I’m not saying these opinions are the only truth but I think it’s a fair comment to make.

It’s not pedantic sadly, it’s the only way to have a conversation on redcaf without other posters jumping in midway and then quoting me with the ‘shit at the wall’ etc. Not your fault but have seen it too many times and I actually find this conversation about how we are coached v interesting.
I'm gonna be as concise as possible.

Well coached teams can go behind.

When we go behind Ole says stick to the gameplan lads.

The reason for the change in a game can be based on what the other team does or doesn't do.

Your welcome
 

tomaldinho1

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We set up to attack in a pretty similar way most games, we have established patterns of play and ways to work our way into scoring opportunities. I do not believe it changes when we are chasing a game, I believe it is just effective and over 90 minutes will often pay off whether it is in the 1st minute or the 70th. With that in mind and the fact that we are truly competing for trophies and have taken the second most points in the best league in the world over the last two years, how can you support any suggestion that we are awfully coached?

I don't want an argument that says we are not perfectly coached, we aren't. But "awfully", please let me know.
Just on the bolded bit, I want us to win everything but this is not the level any of us want to be competing for trophies at. PL we're having a decent season, CL was a disaster.

I think your answer highlights, for me, the difference between coaching and results. I have no criticisms of Ole when it comes to getting over the line, it's actually remarkable if you look back at this season the amount of games we have ended up winning where we probably shouldn't or at least made it more difficult for ourselves, I think we pick up way too many draws (largely because of McFred) but our points total should be mid 70's this season which is definitely good enough.

If this thread were about Ole being one of the best coaches at not getting beaten or grinding out wins, everyone would agree. However, this thread has become a bit of a catch all for coaching and that also includes the stylistic parts of what we see - which I think have been very disappointing this season. I have caveated this previously, and still do, with the fact I think Ole might be factoring in covid and looking at this season, the best defensive teams - City, United, WHUM, Chelsea with Tuchel and Leicester are top. None of these, not even City, are swashbuckling attacking teams this season - it's all about getting results, generally being a bit boring with the ball and having less pressure because there are no fans.

I guess in answer to your last line, I'm not the OP so I don't know why he/she used 'awfully' but I do think you can say, we have an inexperienced coaching team and there are definitely some major areas for improvement.
 

DSG

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Can the mods delete or lock this thread? It’s really not relevant any more and all it does is serve as a platform for people who know nothing about how to coach a team speculating about our coaching, either supporting or criticizing.
 

Foxbatt

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Just on the bolded bit, I want us to win everything but this is not the level any of us want to be competing for trophies at. PL we're having a decent season, CL was a disaster.

I think your answer highlights, for me, the difference between coaching and results. I have no criticisms of Ole when it comes to getting over the line, it's actually remarkable if you look back at this season the amount of games we have ended up winning where we probably shouldn't or at least made it more difficult for ourselves, I think we pick up way too many draws (largely because of McFred) but our points total should be mid 70's this season which is definitely good enough.

If this thread were about Ole being one of the best coaches at not getting beaten or grinding out wins, everyone would agree. However, this thread has become a bit of a catch all for coaching and that also includes the stylistic parts of what we see - which I think have been very disappointing this season. I have caveated this previously, and still do, with the fact I think Ole might be factoring in covid and looking at this season, the best defensive teams - City, United, WHUM, Chelsea with Tuchel and Leicester are top. None of these, not even City, are swashbuckling attacking teams this season - it's all about getting results, generally being a bit boring with the ball and having less pressure because there are no fans.

I guess in answer to your last line, I'm not the OP so I don't know why he/she used 'awfully' but I do think you can say, we have an inexperienced coaching team and there are definitely some major areas for improvement.
This is the exact point. Since Ole has said that he is not directly involved in the coaching, it is confirmed that his coaches have to take responsibility. Yes they cannot take blame for individual mistakes, but overall the way we play they have to. Look at our corners. Everyone knows it is a high one for Maguire. Why do we never take a near post corner? Every other teams including the top teams do it and score. Look at our free kicks. Every time, Fred is there to dummy but everyone knows it is going to be Bruno. Why can't they variate it? Why do they let Rashford, time and again put his head down and run with the ball until he runs into three defenders and lose the ball? These are the kind of things I have issues with them.
 

tomaldinho1

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I'm gonna be as concise as possible.

Well coached teams can go behind.

When we go behind Ole says stick to the gameplan lads.

The reason for the change in a game can be based on what the other team does or doesn't do.

Your welcome
This is doesn't make sense when you factor in the sample size we have.

Can the mods delete or lock this thread? It’s really not relevant any more and all it does is serve as a platform for people who know nothing about how to coach a team speculating about our coaching, either supporting or criticizing.
By this logic, the whole of redcaf goes dark amigo.
 

DSG

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This is doesn't make sense when you factor in the sample size we have.



By this logic, the whole of redcaf goes dark amigo.
Yes and no. Discussing tactics, performances, speculating on transfers, all pretty much fair game. It’s when we get into areas that we cannot possibly know. No one here has watched a training session, listened to a team talk, or witnessed pre-game tactical prep. It’s like arguing whether Ed Woodward prefers boxer briefs or a thong as his undergarment of choice. It’s taking a side based on our perception of the man and the results, not actual objective information.
 

OverratedOpinion

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Just on the bolded bit, I want us to win everything but this is not the level any of us want to be competing for trophies at. PL we're having a decent season, CL was a disaster.

I think your answer highlights, for me, the difference between coaching and results. I have no criticisms of Ole when it comes to getting over the line, it's actually remarkable if you look back at this season the amount of games we have ended up winning where we probably shouldn't or at least made it more difficult for ourselves, I think we pick up way too many draws (largely because of McFred) but our points total should be mid 70's this season which is definitely good enough.

If this thread were about Ole being one of the best coaches at not getting beaten or grinding out wins, everyone would agree. However, this thread has become a bit of a catch all for coaching and that also includes the stylistic parts of what we see - which I think have been very disappointing this season. I have caveated this previously, and still do, with the fact I think Ole might be factoring in covid and looking at this season, the best defensive teams - City, United, WHUM, Chelsea with Tuchel and Leicester are top. None of these, not even City, are swashbuckling attacking teams this season - it's all about getting results, generally being a bit boring with the ball and having less pressure because there are no fans.

I guess in answer to your last line, I'm not the OP so I don't know why he/she used 'awfully' but I do think you can say, we have an inexperienced coaching team and there are definitely some major areas for improvement.
The Champions League was not a disaster, in fact the only game that I could consider a true failure was the Istanbul game. Other than that we went one for one with 2 very good teams with some good performances and were pretty unlucky to be in such a good group. I will gladly accept any criticism of the Istanbul game but I do not think you can judge a full campaign on that one game.

Again I do not believe you have actually provided any substance into why you think we are poorly coached. Do we not retain possession well, are we not set up defensively, do we not create scoring chances, do we not press effectively ect.

The above is not me saying we do all those things well, for instance I think our press is often disorganised, non committal and ineffective. What you have insinuated though is that we are a defensive team which is clearly not the case. We are quite a balanced team who do try to score at every opportunity.

I will ask again, how exactly can you back up the claim that we are awfully or even poorly coached despite being third last season and second this season in the best football league on the planet?
 

OverratedOpinion

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This is the exact point. Since Ole has said that he is not directly involved in the coaching, it is confirmed that his coaches have to take responsibility. Yes they cannot take blame for individual mistakes, but overall the way we play they have to. Look at our corners. Everyone knows it is a high one for Maguire. Why do we never take a near post corner? Every other teams including the top teams do it and score. Look at our free kicks. Every time, Fred is there to dummy but everyone knows it is going to be Bruno. Why can't they variate it? Why do they let Rashford, time and again put his head down and run with the ball until he runs into three defenders and lose the ball? These are the kind of things I have issues with them.
I agree with this, the balls to Maguire who is fundamentally bad at aiming attacking headers is annoying. I did read a stat once that said that less than 2% of corners directly lead to goals which makes it seem a bit unimportant maybe but yeah definitely annoying.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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I will ask again, how exactly can you back up the claim that we are awfully or even poorly coached despite being third last season and second this season in the best football league on the planet?
I mean, surely the argument is that there's a disparity between the results (very good) and the performances (quite topsy-turvy, as evidenced by the number of comebacks) which probably isn't sustainable.

A lot of people said Mourinho's United were poorly coached too - not an outrageous opinion to have considering how disjointed the football was - and they finished second as well.
 

Champ

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I mean, surely the argument is that there's a disparity between the results (very good) and the performances (quite topsy-turvy, as evidenced by the number of comebacks) which probably isn't sustainable.

A lot of people said Mourinho's United were poorly coached too - not an outrageous opinion to have considering how disjointed the football was - and they finished second as well.
Have we had 'topsy turvy' performances though??

We seem to be winning a lot of games, and yes our first half performances are sometimes not as good as out second, but I haven't seen a massive disparity between the halves recently.
We seem to gift goals every now and then, but be able to get goals with equal if not more ease, yet this doesn't happen every game, doesn't strike me as 'topsy turvy'.
 

Brexit_Brigade

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Have we had 'topsy turvy' performances though??
I think so, yeah. Not to the extent that we did earlier in the season, but still applicable.

Just looking at the last 10 league games, we've picked up 22 points which is a perfectly good return. But those 10 games include utterly turgid draws against WBA and Palace, and jammy late wins against Brighton and West Ham (arguably Burnley too), to go with the two incredible performances against City and Spurs.

And funnily enough, the two games before that 10-game cutoff just happen to be a 9-0 win and then a 3-3 draw that we somehow threw away by conceding the sorts of goals this topic was probably made on the back of.
 

Olecurls99

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I think so, yeah. Not to the extent that we did earlier in the season, but still applicable.

Just looking at the last 10 league games, we've picked up 22 points which is a perfectly good return. But those 10 games include utterly turgid draws against WBA and Palace, and jammy late wins against Brighton and West Ham (arguably Burnley too), to go with the two incredible performances against City and Spurs.

And funnily enough, the two games before that 10-game cutoff just happen to be a 9-0 win and then a 3-3 draw that we somehow threw away by conceding the sorts of goals this topic was probably made on the back of.
I do think the xG helps to remind us of the last 10 games because I can't remember them all in detail. So here it is.

Leeds 0.22 United 1.12
A pretty bad game were Leeds worked their socks off to cancel us out but we probably should have won even though we weren't very good.

United 2.87 Burnley 0. 96
In no way was this a lucky win. xG said it should have been 4-1. For example the xG in the 9-0 win was 5.09

Tottenham 0.92 United 2.10
We were class

United 1.73 Brighton 1.41
Close one and we probably did nick the points here but we still came out on top in the xG

United 1.70 West Ham 0.46
Clear winners by the xG probably should have been 2-0

City 1.28 United 2.11
Great performance and deserved win according to the xG

Palace 0.74 United 0.58
Our worst performance of the season and a draw was the fair result.

Chelsea 1.17 United 0.36
Lucky to get a draw here. No doubt

United 1.73 Newcastle 0.34
Deserved win by the xG. My memory is getting hazy which is why the xG is so useful. It does seem to correlate with what I see myself.

West Brom 0.95 United 0.42
Lucky to get a draw. Another poor performance although they did get an incredibly lucky start with that wrestler goal so a draw is probably fair on the balance of things.

xG has us getting 23 points out of 30. We are by no means the finished article and some of the performances can be a little stagnant but when we have our first 11 out there the performances and the results are worthy of Man United. Pogba, Bruno, Rashford, Cavani, sessions.....
 
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Bobcat

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So you feel like that? So what? You feeling something should change peoples stances, behaviours, postitions? Is there a chance, that some people around here take themselves far too serious? It is actually pretty funny, people making fun of some posters being triggered by anything Ole does or doesn't while these people are triggered by the actions of the posters. It is ridiculous. Just stop it, accept that other people have different view points, listen to them, try to understand, understand, decide for yourself, if it convinces you and then the other way around.

Some people complain that the redcafe is insufferable after bad results, it starts getting insufferable after good results as well.
But the whole point of the forum is bickering about football. Just because you accept that someone has a different opinion than you, does not mean discussing with them is pointless

And why is the caf insufferable after a win?
 

Drainy

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I think Ole explained the issue a few weeks back.

No pre season and mid week games every week have meant more time has been spent on fitness/ sharpness and rest days than advanced tactical work.
 

GazTheLegend

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But the whole point of the forum is bickering about football. Just because you accept that someone has a different opinion than you, does not mean discussing with them is pointless

And why is the caf insufferable after a win?
(Responded to the wrong post sorry)

I'm trying not to get too furious but I'm turning into a mushroom cloud laying motherf**ker at all people telling us not to be happy when Manchester United win, or that they are waiting for us to lose so they can resume their endless tirades about the manager and players on the caf.
 

GazTheLegend

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Can the mods delete or lock this thread? It’s really not relevant any more and all it does is serve as a platform for people who know nothing about how to coach a team speculating about our coaching, either supporting or criticizing.
Completely agree. It's utterly embarassing even to see it bumped. And you know - you KNOW that if we are drawing or losing at any point today that it -will- be bumped.
 

roonster09

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Hmm,

Van Gaal had very good players, Moyes and Mourinho too. Yet this is the first time since Sir Alex that I actually feel we are on our way to being an elite team again.

I just feel he has done enough now for people to finally start admitting that he is clearly a manager with a lot of talent.
So you feel like that? So what? You feeling something should change peoples stances, behaviours, postitions? Is there a chance, that some people around here take themselves far too serious? It is actually pretty funny, people making fun of some posters being triggered by anything Ole does or doesn't while these people are triggered by the actions of the posters. It is ridiculous. Just stop it, accept that other people have different view points, listen to them, try to understand, understand, decide for yourself, if it convinces you and then the other way around.

Some people complain that the redcafe is insufferable after bad results, it starts getting insufferable after good results as well.
Sorry what? I gave my opinion about something on a forum. Sort of the point of the whole thing no? :lol:

I literally could not care less about your "stance, behaviour or position". Carry on thinking what you like.
Seriously mate, just look at what you wrote:

"I just feel he has done enough now for people to finally start admitting that he is clearly a manager with a lot of talent. "

You certainly hear the condemnation in these words, don't you? If you make these sorts of statements, it will always trigger responses. Forever - but maybe that is what some here want, a reason to have a go at others...
I think you need to have a beer and a sit down. How could someone living in such a great city be so up tight :lol:

Ole is a great manager btw
:lol:
 

Jezpeza

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Some bizarre points on here. Conceding first in a game is circumstantial, as is not winning sometimes and drawing or losing. The idea that conceding in a game you win is symptomatic of bad coaching is quite frankly drivel. What are we, a bottom half championship side who rely on a clean sheet to get anything from a game and have no facility to ‘come from behind’ i.e still win if they concede a goal? The same people would cry about ‘attacking patterns’ if we did what they say and win 1-0 every week. People stick to rhetoric to the point where they make themselves look like they have never followed a season of football before.
 

OverratedOpinion

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I mean, surely the argument is that there's a disparity between the results (very good) and the performances (quite topsy-turvy, as evidenced by the number of comebacks) which probably isn't sustainable.

A lot of people said Mourinho's United were poorly coached too - not an outrageous opinion to have considering how disjointed the football was - and they finished second as well.
I get that, I just don't really think our performances are that topsy-turvy.

Not perfect and we can definitely improve but in comparison to most teams I would say we look very good mostly. In saying it is not sustainable, I think our results have been mostly good with a couple of disappointments for nearly 2 years now. I think if we had a top class centre forward (or if Cavani could start most games) that we would be a genuine title challenger.
 
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Flexdegea

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This is the exact point. Since Ole has said that he is not directly involved in the coaching, it is confirmed that his coaches have to take responsibility. Yes they cannot take blame for individual mistakes, but overall the way we play they have to. Look at our corners. Everyone knows it is a high one for Maguire. Why do we never take a near post corner? Every other teams including the top teams do it and score. Look at our free kicks. Every time, Fred is there to dummy but everyone knows it is going to be Bruno. Why can't they variate it? Why do they let Rashford, time and again put his head down and run with the ball until he runs into three defenders and lose the ball? These are the kind of things I have issues with them.

Freekicks now the new frontier for Ole attacks :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Jezpeza

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This is the exact point. Since Ole has said that he is not directly involved in the coaching, it is confirmed that his coaches have to take responsibility. Yes they cannot take blame for individual mistakes, but overall the way we play they have to. Look at our corners. Everyone knows it is a high one for Maguire. Why do we never take a near post corner? Every other teams including the top teams do it and score. Look at our free kicks. Every time, Fred is there to dummy but everyone knows it is going to be Bruno. Why can't they variate it? Why do they let Rashford, time and again put his head down and run with the ball until he runs into three defenders and lose the ball? These are the kind of things I have issues with them.
we are ranked 10th for set pieces scored and 2nd highest for set pieces conceded from this year and last year and we were 15th and 9th respectively last year. Its an area for improvement but its not the be all end all, its not like we are relying on set pieces to make up for lack of other goals.

We are also top and joint top for penalties won and scored on top of these. Direct Free kick wise i think the same, there aren't that many people who are great at them. The fred dummy is pointless i agree he never takes them, but whoever you put there its usually rashford or bruno. Bit like southampton, whoevers stood round the ball we all know ward prowse will take it.

Rashfords dribbling is effective, and even when not Ive lost count of the times he drags 3 players in around him, loses the ball but we’ve pressed up, and regain it instantly with a load of space because of the opposition who've bunched around him. Thats the point of players with individual skill they are a handful.
Do you not remember when LVG ‘didnt let them do it’ and we just played subuteo soccer and no one was allowed to do anything other than pass sideways or back?

In summary I dont think cherrypicking some obvious little areas of improvement or personal annoyances in quite a good season is evidence of bad coaching. If it was that bad we would just be down the table and not have been in cup semi finals and a probable final
 

OverratedOpinion

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In summary I dont think cherrypicking some obvious little areas of improvement or personal annoyances in quite a good season is evidence of bad coaching. If it was that bad we would just be down the table and not have been in cup semi finals and a probable final
Basically this, people seem to be providing evidence of as being less than perfect to try and prove that we are an awfully coached team.
 

NZT-One

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Freekicks now the new frontier for Ole attacks :lol: :lol: :lol:
Seeing everything, people consider to be an area of potential improvement as an attack is what causes this. This thread has been frequented the most during the dire time when we gave away the lead of the PL table by losing to Sheffield and i.e. drawing against Westbrom. Even back then, it wasn't the particular results, that bugged people, it was the way we played. And this got better in the last weeks, which caused this thread to rarely bumped thread. Just have a look - I would wager two thirds of the posts in here are from people slamming other people just for using the thread to write about their criticism.

That's ridiculous - change the f**ing thread title, if it stings so many people that they call for deleting a thread.

But the whole point of the forum is bickering about football. Just because you accept that someone has a different opinion than you, does not mean discussing with them is pointless

And why is the caf insufferable after a win?
Of course discussing it isn't pointless. Never said that... But seeing the level of vitriol in here doesn't indicate a big level of "acceptance" particularly on one side of the conflict. There is a vibe of "if you critique and you do it in a certain way, something is wrong with you"

I said, the caf is getting insufferable after wins - of course mostly threads like this.

Because just the name of this thread triggers so many people just to come in and lash into other people just for voicing their concerns. How many posters are in this thread actually wanting Ole to go? How many? Maybe 5? But there are at least 50 posters regularly ready to come in, waiting to put everybody who isn't completely convinced ("Don't you dare voicing critique") into the same category of some of the emotional dickheads in the MDT. That sucks. There are around 10 people who voice their concerns very accurately, trying to be as precise as possible, but the "top reds" want to see blood because "who dares to voice concerns when we are sooooo great, how does that look from the outside".

This thread exists because it gets fueled by the Ole In extremists just as much as by the opponents.

I repeat, if it is so challenging for some people to stand the title of this thread - just rename it to something more moderate so we can get over it. If some don't want to hear criticism, fine, don't listen to it. You can just not click on the thread - it is possible, humans have a free will... Asking for thread deletion to take away a place for criticism is ridiculous and shines an ugly little light on social behavior in groups...
 

NZT-One

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Basically this, people seem to be providing evidence of as being less than perfect to try and prove that we are an awfully coached team.
I don't think, you will find a strong core of posters who still have the stance that is voiced in the thread title. But there were times, where these concerns were more at place than today. Hallelujah, we left that behind. So the general tune has changed, time for you "ole defenders" to change it too - not every criticism is an indicator for the wish of total rebuilt. The few voices that come here hotheaded in the middle of the game should be responded to, but the level of backlash these days is too much. Too much that it will only cause them to come back even stronger once the pitch results stop making it so easy to be behind the manager.
 

Theo Cherry

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*We are an awfully coached first-half team...and classically trained second-half one!
 

Bobcat

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I said, the caf is getting insufferable after wins - of course mostly threads like this.

Because just the name of this thread triggers so many people just to come in and lash into other people just for voicing their concerns. How many posters are in this thread actually wanting Ole to go? How many? Maybe 5? But there are at least 50 posters regularly ready to come in, waiting to put everybody who isn't completely convinced ("Don't you dare voicing critique") into the same category of some of the emotional dickheads in the MDT. That sucks. There are around 10 people who voice their concerns very accurately, trying to be as precise as possible, but the "top reds" want to see blood because "who dares to voice concerns when we are sooooo great, how does that look from the outside".

This thread exists because it gets fueled by the Ole In extremists just as much as by the opponents.

I repeat, if it is so challenging for some people to stand the title of this thread - just rename it to something more moderate so we can get over it. If some don't want to hear criticism, fine, don't listen to it. You can just not click on the thread - it is possible, humans have a free will... Asking for thread deletion to take away a place for criticism is ridiculous and shines an ugly little light on social behavior in groups...
The whole premise of the thread is ridiculous because

1. No one on the Caf knows the first thing about what goes on at Carrington and i bet 99% of the Caf have not even coached football at a kindergarten level
2. Its all incredibly ambiguous, how do you decide whats coaching and whats just the limitations of a player? On the flipside, the term "individual brilliance" have been used so much its basically become a Caf meme at this point.

And dont pretend like legitimate concerns and level headed critique is just lumped together with the knee jerk moaning, because its clearly not. Saying "i think we should do better on offensive set pieces" wont get you attacked by a howling mob. But if you come in here the second we go under in a live match and post "I KNEW IT. HES A FRAUD" you're going to get called out
 

NZT-One

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The whole premise of the thread is ridiculous because

1. No one on the Caf knows the first thing about what goes on at Carrington and i bet 99% of the Caf have not even coached football at a kindergarten level
What do you think, how many scouts do we have around here? Does this make the performance threads ridiculous too? How many CEO level guys are around? But we still judge our executives...
I think, everybody who joins a fan forum knows its limitations. We are fans who try to make sense, to come up with explanations about what we see on the pitch. So where does your confidence come from - saying it certainly isn't the coaching? Are you a coach? No you aren't. You don't have to be to have an opinion. But this goes for everybody. Some people think, its the players, some people think, it is the manager. Most people think, it is a bunch of factors and discuss their extents. How smart is a stance that excludes one option from the get go? To me it would be the opposite of an objective* view.

(*objective in the framework of a fan forum ;) )

The whole premise of the thread is ridiculous because
2. Its all incredibly ambiguous, how do you decide whats coaching and whats just the limitations of a player? On the flipside, the term "individual brilliance" have been used so much its basically become a Caf meme at this point.
Have a look at my very first post. It was in this very thread and it was a statement about this discussion going nowhere as long as some terms are not commonly defined. So I agree with you. But look at it this way: if the people criticizing our "coaching" with these loose terms are somewhat "faulty" - aren't the ole-defenders as well? And here we are at the point from before: all is just opinions. I agree, calling a thread like that screams for abuse - but let's be real here, at some point in time, it shouldn't bug people too much anymore. And the theme of the thread changed over time. Like our football did... Was it coaching that held us back in January? Or was it the players? We have the same players now as we had back then, that would speak against it. Did the manager had the time to coach? We don't know, maybe, probably not. But he decided to employ Pogba differently a few weeks ago, a player he has at his disposal for a while. And he didn't switch him back into the double pivot. Do you want me to ignore that and just say, "yeah I was just wrong. It was downright idiotic to suggest that there could be issues with the coaching team?" ? I guess no, right... So to me it seems there are things to discuss.

And dont pretend like legitimate concerns and level headed critique is just lumped together with the knee jerk moaning, because its clearly not. Saying "i think we should do better on offensive set pieces" wont get you attacked by a howling mob. But if you come in here the second we go under in a live match and post "I KNEW IT. HES A FRAUD" you're going to get called out
And you should get called out. But if 10 hotheaded posts cause 100 other posts, the "calling-out"-part it is a bit out of balance. Some of the most vocal people in this thread are tomaldinho and Foxbatt. Their posts are levelheaded but often receive the same treatment as the ones you named.

I know these discussion suck... But to just push the fault for this to the people who voice critique, doesn't make sense. Not anymore.
 
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