We are an awfully coached team

anant

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Have a look at my very first post. It was in this very thread and it was a statement about this discussion going nowhere as long as some terms are not commonly defined. So I agree with you. But look at it this way: if the people criticizing our "coaching" with these loose terms are somewhat "faulty" - aren't the ole-defenders as well? And here we are at the point from before: all is just opinions. I agree, calling a thread like that screams for abuse - but let's be real here, at some point in time, it shouldn't bug people too much anymore. And the theme of the thread changed over time. Like our football did... Was it coaching that held us back in January? Or was it the players? We have the same players now as we had back then, that would speak against it. Did the manager had the time to coach? We don't know, maybe, probably not. But he decided to employ Pogba differently a few weeks ago, a player he has at his disposal for a while. And he didn't switch him back into the double pivot. Do you want me to ignore that and just say, "yeah I was just wrong. It was downright idiotic to suggest that there could be issues with the coaching team?" ? I guess no, right... So to me it seems there are things to discuss.
But we're having the same coaches as well.

The thing is fans like to think that what they are thinking is always right - but football games aren't won on paper. Our performances in the initial few weeks was horrible but that had more to do with lack of pre-season. Pogba wasn't getting utilized on LW because he was clearly struggling to keep up with the pace of the game - he had COVID, remember?

The problem with your argument here is that I can use the same argument on City as well, and the conclusion you'd reach is that Pep was the one holding them back in the 1st half of the season. The players are the same, but results started getting better from Jan onwards.

Anyways, to the individual brilliance argument, I think we've had this discussion earlier, but even for individual brilliance to shine through, the manager needs to set his tactics up accordingly.

For example- Mou coached our defence so terribly that we managed to see Dave's shot stopping brilliance that season. Ole has set his team such that we see the best of Bruno, Rashford instead of receiving the ball near the 18 yard box receives it closer to touchline and near the final third. What this means is their FB needs to come up to him, which gives Rashford an opportunity to have free space behind him (the space left by this FB) if he manages to dribble past him (which is a strength in his game). Lindelof's straight long balls are being utilized well, Shaw's press resistence is being utilized well and you see passing triangles forming between Rashford, Shaw and Bruno/Pog quite often (bypassing it means a lot of space is there to be exploited).

The thing is if we look at most of our goals, and most of our goal attempts - you'd notice that they were a result of well coordinated moves - slick passing and good movement - rather than us scoring a goal off say a flukey finish. Hell, let's go over the goals vs Roma - 1st was a result of some slick passing and good movement, 2nd was a result of good play and a great pass to Cavani, 3rd was a result of good movement from Cavani to find him free near 6 yard box (and there was some nice passing before that), the penalty was a result of us getting the ball up fast - good run by Rashford and an excellent pass by Shaw. 5th was from a corner IIRC - great pass and good header by Pogba. Last was a result of some good passing and I agree Greenwood got a bit lucky there.

The point is of the 6 goals, each of the goals was repeatable apart from maybe Greenwood's case (even here, the only thing I'd expect is the goalkeeper to do better here). They weren't any Coutinho for Pool bangers where he'd get one in from 40 shots.
 

NZT-One

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But we're having the same coaches as well.
I know. So obviously, there can be multiple opinions about what caused our struggles back then or our upwind lately, right? Who was/is right, nobody will find out but, as you pointed out, because everybody thinks they are right, there certainly is a base to have a discussion about it, isn't? So if somebody comes in here telling you this thread is stupid and we should just delete it because everything is shit, you would feel treated unjust, wouldn't you?

The thing is fans like to think that what they are thinking is always right - but football games aren't won on paper. Our performances in the initial few weeks was horrible but that had more to do with lack of pre-season. Pogba wasn't getting utilized on LW because he was clearly struggling to keep up with the pace of the game - he had COVID, remember?
But Ole used him before in the double pivot as well, despite all the indicators that spoke against it. I don't criticize Ole for that, a lot of managers played and play Pogba there, but when Ole was bolt to find another way to bring him into the team without him being in the double pivot, it seemed to bring out the best of him. (A role, that is comparable to his role at Juve so it might have been worth a try earlier) This is the sort of experiment I expect from a manager that has a squad he should maximize the output from. Ole did it and I hope, he will be bolt again in a similar situation.

Anyways, to the individual brilliance argument, I think we've had this discussion earlier, but even for individual brilliance to shine through, the manager needs to set his tactics up accordingly.
We don't need to have this discussion. I agree it is more or less pointless as long as we do not define what exactly we are talking about. But while we are talking about it, let me tell you what I think: I think, Ole wants his offensive players to be brave, fast and direct. He gives them more or less freedom to express. I like that and I am sure, the players like that do. BUT when I was talking about patterns of play, about coaching, what I meant was, I felt that some managers provide their teams with a certain structure, the players can rely on when in high-stress situation, preplanned moves, lets call these patterns of play. I am pretty sure, that for example Klopp doesn't take away any freedom from the offensive players but if they don't come up with genius ideas on their own, they have some routine moves to fall back on.
In regards to us, I am not sure, if we have that structure (to that degree) which is not a problem as long as we have our top players perform on a high level. The question is a) could it be the case, that some of our players would benefit by that kind of structure (I think of AWB, McFred, James, maybe Shaw, Martial, Shaw?) because it might decrease the number of decisions they have to take while on the pitch and b) how will one or two injuries effect our play? What happens, if we lose one out of Shaw, Bruno, Pogba, Cavani, Rashford? Even with Bruno, the machine stuttered a bit a from time to time, but when Pogba came on the left, Bruno and Pogba (and the whole team) thrived. Add Cavani to it and we see stuff like against Roma. But what happens, when we have to rest these players? If we rely too much on individuals, injuries and form can hurt us even more. If we implement a certain structure, existing players might benefit from it, new players could be integrated faster. I am not talking about taking the freedom away. I am talking about adding new tools to the arsenal which is needed if we want to play for the big titles. We need to evolve - and we shouldn't just sit and hope that our players evolve on their own.

Maybe that way of approaching the words "individual brilliance" makes more sense, or provides at least something to talk about.

For example- Mou coached our defence so terribly that we managed to see Dave's shot stopping brilliance that season. Ole has set his team such that we see the best of Bruno, Rashford instead of receiving the ball near the 18 yard box receives it closer to touchline and near the final third. What this means is their FB needs to come up to him, which gives Rashford an opportunity to have free space behind him (the space left by this FB) if he manages to dribble past him (which is a strength in his game). Lindelof's straight long balls are being utilized well, Shaw's press resistence is being utilized well and you see passing triangles forming between Rashford, Shaw and Bruno/Pog quite often (bypassing it means a lot of space is there to be exploited).
I agree.

The thing is if we look at most of our goals, and most of our goal attempts - you'd notice that they were a result of well coordinated moves - slick passing and good movement - rather than us scoring a goal off say a flukey finish. Hell, let's go over the goals vs Roma - 1st was a result of some slick passing and good movement, 2nd was a result of good play and a great pass to Cavani, 3rd was a result of good movement from Cavani to find him free near 6 yard box (and there was some nice passing before that), the penalty was a result of us getting the ball up fast - good run by Rashford and an excellent pass by Shaw. 5th was from a corner IIRC - great pass and good header by Pogba. Last was a result of some good passing and I agree Greenwood got a bit lucky there.
Hell, lets not do it :)
Remember: this thread here flourished in a different time of the year. The time of Istanbul, Westbrom, Sheffield, Newcastle. It is no coincidence, that it is pretty quiet in the last weeks, because we play very very well these days. But lets not act as if we play like that for the whole season. Because we didn't. And back then, the fans were looking for explanations - and one possible explanation was the coaching. Maybe not the most probable one for some folks but what does that matter. Lets discuss it.
 

anant

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But Ole used him before in the double pivot as well, despite all the indicators that spoke against it. I don't criticize Ole for that, a lot of managers played and play Pogba there, but when Ole was bolt to find another way to bring him into the team without him being in the double pivot, it seemed to bring out the best of him. (A role, that is comparable to his role at Juve so it might have been worth a try earlier) This is the sort of experiment I expect from a manager that has a squad he should maximize the output from. Ole did it and I hope, he will be bolt again in a similar situation.
I'll just argue on this point as in others, I know we won't ever reach an agreement.

Last season, Pogba was playing in a double pivot with Matic and was doing pretty well. The thing is this season, Pogba started off the season with COVID, so wasn't at peak fitness, and with Matic getting older, we dont have a proper DM. What this means is if Pog is to play as part of double pivot, he needs to play alongside either Fred - a player who lacks positional discipline and commits too early, or McT - a player who is not the greatest reader of the game for a lone #6 and hence he doesn't cut off passing lanes when he should.

I'm quite certain that if we sign a DM this summer, Pogba will go back to playing as part of the double pivot instead of playing on LW
 

NZT-One

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I'll just argue on this point as in others, I know we won't ever reach an agreement.

Last season, Pogba was playing in a double pivot with Matic and was doing pretty well. The thing is this season, Pogba started off the season with COVID, so wasn't at peak fitness, and with Matic getting older, we dont have a proper DM. What this means is if Pog is to play as part of double pivot, he needs to play alongside either Fred - a player who lacks positional discipline and commits too early, or McT - a player who is not the greatest reader of the game for a lone #6 and hence he doesn't cut off passing lanes when he should.

I'm quite certain that if we sign a DM this summer, Pogba will go back to playing as part of the double pivot instead of playing on LW
Weird thing... difficult to imagine how difficult it seemingly is, to agree on sentences like

" We need to evolve - and we shouldn't just sit and hope that our players evolve on their own. "
" And back then, the fans were looking for explanations - and one possible explanation was the coaching. Maybe not the most probable one for some folks but what does that matter. Lets discuss it. "
I would have thought that these are pretty unifying statements on a discussion board but I guess it is too important to stay in line with the majority around here.

About your text: I have a suspicion that you are right and that Pog will be deployed in the double pivot again but I hope, Ole learned the (for me) obvious lesson, that the player isn't suited for it. I remember a time where Pogba was quite good, it was in the caretaker phase when he was deployed further up the field. I don't remember any great performances in the double pivot, maybe there were a few ok ones in the phase where Matic was really really good but I never liked that midfield. It was way to immobile, everybody was complaining about us being not able to match other teams in the middle of the park and being way to slow in the center. It surely didn't help that Matic was magnetically attracted to the goalkeeper most of the time while Bruno mostly was magnetically attracted to the opposition goalkeeper leaving Pogba to manage the center on his own.
For me, Pogba is a special player, special in his skill set. But he excels when he is able to roam somewhat freely. Is there hope, that he learns some of Carricks magic for that position some day? Hope is always fine, I wouldn't put any money on it and in my view, the team has enough room for upgrades as it is, no need for adding to the list of issues when not necessary. Pogba is a great player but one, the team has to compromise for. For all his talent, he is always good for leaving his position or losing the ball easily. Thats fine as long as the distance between him and our goal is big enough. These days traditional double pivots won't really cut it anymore - at least not in the big matches against teams where the whole team participates in attack and defense. Having him and Bruno secured by a single DM will be very risky and soon we will be the ones, easily countered against. And the majority then will fault the defense, merry'go'round until we accept, that Pogba currently (and maybe never) doesn't pull/pulls all of his weight defensively. There is a reason, why at Juve, he was partnered by Vidal and a three-man-defense and why France plays another workhorse (addiditionally to his partner in the DP). We look so solid at everything, because McFred gives us the workrate and stability in the center. Pushing as many attacking minded players into a team has never really worked out.
 

tomaldinho1

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The Champions League was not a disaster, in fact the only game that I could consider a true failure was the Istanbul game. Other than that we went one for one with 2 very good teams with some good performances and were pretty unlucky to be in such a good group. I will gladly accept any criticism of the Istanbul game but I do not think you can judge a full campaign on that one game.

Again I do not believe you have actually provided any substance into why you think we are poorly coached. Do we not retain possession well, are we not set up defensively, do we not create scoring chances, do we not press effectively ect.

The above is not me saying we do all those things well, for instance I think our press is often disorganised, non committal and ineffective. What you have insinuated though is that we are a defensive team which is clearly not the case. We are quite a balanced team who do try to score at every opportunity.

I will ask again, how exactly can you back up the claim that we are awfully or even poorly coached despite being third last season and second this season in the best football league on the planet?
Re the last question, already answered that.

Re the CL exit - Istanbul was horrendous but, and this is a good example to discuss because we are talking about coaching, do you not think that the tactical decision versus RBL (we changed from our usual formation which hammered them to 5 at the back) was a bad move? Contrast the start of the game to how we finished it, once we have shifted formation and then also factor in that they really aren't that good a side - Liverpool were pretty comfortable in beating them. I'm not judging the whole campaign on that but our CL campaign was a disaster.

On your questions, I think we are ok at retaining possession. We certainly could do better. We don't really do it in offensive areas as well as other teams but that's our gameplan so I have no issue with it as it is getting results. As I already said, this part is personal preference although I do think we need to improve on it to be a force in Europe again. Pressing is a major area of weakness I'd agree, there's stats to prove that and I think we all want to see us develop a much more organised press (I think this is why Pert was hired). I also don't think there's anything wrong with being a pragmatic team - I was speaking to someone else on here previously and Ole is pretty similar when you analyse his stats to Conte when he was at Chelsea, we're not defensive like a Mou team (thank god) but we setup with a very solid defensive core and we normally don't overcommit numbers (until we go behind and then look a better team which is my point). This isn't a criticism, I often run into United fans who seem to think the fact we don't normally dominate the ball in offensive areas against the best team is a negative thing, which it isn't.
 

Buchan

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*team concedes exact same goal defending corners practically every fortnight*

“tHeRe’s NotHiNG WrOng wITh oUr cOaCHiNg. PlaSTiC fANs aRe aLwAYs MoAnInG.

PLaStiCs”

Repeat ad nauseam.
 

rimaldo

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no need for the hyperbole. it’s not the exact same goal every single fortnight, it’s always scored by a different player for a different team.
 

ivaldo

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*team concedes exact same goal defending corners practically every fortnight*

“tHeRe’s NotHiNG WrOng wITh oUr cOaCHiNg. PlaSTiC fANs aRe aLwAYs MoAnInG.

PLaStiCs”

Repeat ad nauseam.
*We're not playing any of our regular XI*

WhY iSnT eVeRyFiNk GoInG rIgHt?
 

Zlatan 7

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*team concedes exact same goal defending corners practically every fortnight*

“tHeRe’s NotHiNG WrOng wITh oUr cOaCHiNg. PlaSTiC fANs aRe aLwAYs MoAnInG.

PLaStiCs”

Repeat ad nauseam.
What does the strange mix of capital letters mean
 

ivaldo

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We did the 37 other times we conceded that goal in the last three seasons, though... :rolleyes:
But we didn't today though did we. But sure, bump a thread about how terrible we're coached. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

2 man midfield

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*team concedes exact same goal defending corners practically every fortnight*

“tHeRe’s NotHiNG WrOng wITh oUr cOaCHiNg. PlaSTiC fANs aRe aLwAYs MoAnInG.

PLaStiCs”

Repeat ad nauseam.
Painful at this point
 

Halftrack

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*team concedes exact same goal defending corners practically every fortnight*

“tHeRe’s NotHiNG WrOng wITh oUr cOaCHiNg. PlaSTiC fANs aRe aLwAYs MoAnInG.

PLaStiCs”

Repeat ad nauseam.
Sack Ole and sell Maguire!
 

dove

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Please get a set piece coach. This simply cannot continue.
 

el3mel

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I'm sorry but anyone who actually discusses this game seriously needs a look in the mirror. :lol:

I'm happy we fecked up Liverpool.
 

RUCK4444

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*team concedes exact same goal defending corners practically every fortnight*

“tHeRe’s NotHiNG WrOng wITh oUr cOaCHiNg. PlaSTiC fANs aRe aLwAYs MoAnInG.

PLaStiCs”

Repeat ad nauseam.
Painfully plastic post. It should have a ‘made in China’ stamp on this post.

That is all.
 

slored1

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What the feck? Why has this thread been bumped? Rashford loses the marker and Soyuncu scores, there is no issue with the coaching in this case. Bizarre to moan about that.
 

Brownie85

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I'm sorry but anyone who actually discusses this game seriously needs a look in the mirror. :lol:

I'm happy we fecked up Liverpool.
There is absolutely no way the players took this seriously today. Was little more than a training session. Literally just going through the motions and putting some half-arsed effort into things.
You know for a fact Ole really doesn't care how we did today.
 

united for life

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I'm sorry but anyone who actually discusses this game seriously needs a look in the mirror. :lol:

I'm happy we fecked up Liverpool.
Stopped take this game seriously the moment I saw the line up. All fairness to Ole, he did the right thing. Our starting 11 can’t play 4 games in a week. Not towards the end of the season for surw
 

UnitedSofa

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We back in here are we lads?

We all gonna come back in 48 hrs to bitch and moan? Or are we gonna recognise our 2nd string played tonight & we knew it was gonna be shite because of our fixture congestion? Or are we gonna forget about that?
 

Real Name

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What the feck? Why has this thread been bumped? Rashford loses the marker and Soyuncu scores, there is no issue with the coaching in this case. Bizarre to moan about that.
Opportunity for a pop at Ole, nothing else.
 

Buchan

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What the feck? Why has this thread been bumped? Rashford loses the marker and Soyuncu scores, there is no issue with the coaching in this case. Bizarre to moan about that.
We put our least-aerially dominant players marking the opposition’s biggest aerial threats whilst our most-aerially dominant players mark space in the six-yard box but are rendered completely useless as they are giving the advantage to the incoming attackers with a running jump.

Look at that goal today - it’s a carbon copy of goals and chances we have conceded ad infinitum this season yet the issue still hasn’t been addressed. It’s comical how poor we are at defending set-pieces (particularly corners) and it’s not a personnel problem; it’s evidently a coaching one at this point as the management team continue to persist with it. Yet whenever supporters highlight this piss-poor element of our game, all we get is ridicule and sarcasm in return. Go figure.
 

Djemba-Djemba

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I love Ole and we're going in the right direction for sure.

But I fecking hate how useless we are at set pieces.

It's been a huge issue since Ole took over and it's still not been sorted.
 

Fanta Stick

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We put our least-aerially dominant players marking the opposition’s biggest aerial threats whilst our most-aerially dominant players mark space in the six-yard box but are rendered completely useless as they are giving the advantage to the incoming attackers with a running jump.

Look at that goal today - it’s a carbon copy of goals and chances we have conceded ad infinitum this season yet the issue still hasn’t been addressed. It’s comical how poor we are at defending set-pieces (particularly corners) and it’s not a personnel problem; it’s evidently a coaching one at this point as the management team continue to persist with it. Yet whenever supporters highlight this piss-poor element of our game, all we get is ridicule and sarcasm in return. Go figure.
Exactly. I don't understand why it even needs explaining.
 

Ayush_reddevil

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I have stopped analysing this team too much because it's just an impossible task . We do well when no one expects us to and then as soon as people start rating us we go back to being shite. It's a never ending story of one way or the other with no middle ground but in the end over the course of the season we are neither great nor awful but just good enough . If I said to you tonight that United will finish 6th next season I don't think that many people would argue against it . Anyone who has seen us play can see that we are just very fragile
 

bond19821982

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We just don't know how to play from back or how to beat the press. Liverpool defense was there for taking. What did we do? We just exposed ourselves to them.

We are entering Ole's third year and we can't make 3 passes from back.