We basically have to become what we once hated if we're to progress under Ole...a team that buys their success with a chequebook manager in charge.
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
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Thats is complete sense. As Cruijff says if you give one option it is going to be blocked. If you give two options maybe it can be blocked but if you give three options, then the opposition cannot block the pass. 4 players normally make a diamond. The player with the ball and the other three players. That shape is then moved all over the pitch with different players making the diamond as the ball is passed among them. Right players in the right space at the right time.
According to him that is the diamond and not how the players line up when they kick off.
"We are an awfully coached team"
This is definitely true during matches, as Ole just sits in the stands and watches a monitor/ipad of the match.
Compare that to the likes of Pep and Klopp who are on the touchline barking orders - coaching.
This is definitely true during matches, as Ole just sits in the stands and watches a monitor/ipad of the match.
Compare that to the likes of Pep and Klopp who are on the touchline barking orders - coaching.
Is this a parody?
Oh give over. We're comfortably second. It's become a bit of a myth that we rely on pace, power and moments of brilliance while other top teams rely on patterns of play and a robust system. I'll admit that I'm still not all balls in on Ole, but it's bullshit to pretend we're any different to any top team. We have our moments, we have our foibles. We also have an opportunity in the summer to strengthen those positions which consistently flatter to deceive (CM, RW and CB) and Ole has given us a great pedestal to move forward. We have easily been the second most consistent and devastating team this season (and most entertaining, even with all those bore draws) so there is genuine reason to be optimistic. We've been completely fecked over with 4 games in 8 days, I think the players and managers should be cut some slack.
No it's the early hours of the morning and I'm still fuming with the dire performance against our biggest rivals at Old Trafford - our home.
Zero coaching/instruction from Ole on the sideline was something that was noted throughout the match.
Players have said before whatever the managers shouted during the game, they can't be arsed about it and just nod in agreement.
You coach your team before the matches, the presence in the touch line is just a nuisance.
Which players have said that?
We're one proper CM away from being a solid team. The McFred combo is painful to watch.
If that CM is Ballon D'Or quality then yes.
I think our issues go beyond than just plugging players in.
I just have zero faith in this coaching staff + Ole being good enough to win us titles vs the two best managers in the world.
Agreed and time will tell if Ole knows what he is doing. But I'm hoping we don't see a McFred midfield next season because they have been horrendous in keeping possession and distributing passes from defensive positions.
We do need a world class CM but I can't think of any suitable names given the Glazer's apparent reluctance to spend big after past failures amongst other things.
We have match winners, and most notably, we have Bruno. Tell me what we rely on to break teams down other than individual pieces of brilliance and/or pace and power on the break?
I saw nothing in last night's performance that I haven't seen as a theme throughout the season, only that we were far easier to get at as we seemed content to allow a basketball game to unfold.
What individually great goals have we scored this season? We are 2 goals off City, must be some amount of goal of the season contenders to post..all the goals in Europe we scored as well...
Even last night had 2 goals that were well worked?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42611265
Basically. You shout on the touchline for great image and pose...
This one is for youth coaching perspective...but it is what it is:
https://community.ukcoaching.org/sp.../the-unknown-damage-caused-from-the-touchline
Like @cyberman said, we've only scored 2 less than Man City. It's just lazy at this point. We are clearly capable, so let's not talk shit.
I wouldn’t draw any conclusions from that.
I would say with no fans in the ground, communication from the manager makes more impact than what it would with a full stadium.
How much impact it still makes is dubious...I still have awful memories of Moyes shouting 'Danny' over and over again at Welbeck. That made no impact at all
There is good communication however, and usually at United this is left to Phelan and the others to impart on the players rather than Ole.
Spot on. I just don't even feel like commenting anymore regarding blatant stuff like this because I'm pretty much over it and accept we'll never be "pretty" to watch under Ole. Last night just got me riled up.
Plus Ole said he'd never play tiki taka football, which I think basically meant he doesn't know how to coach a good possession team. Why wouldn't you want that in your arsenal?
This is true at most levels. Half the time you can't even hear what someone is shouting properly.
The sad part is in the first 15-20 minutes we actually moved pretty well, Fred dropped in between defenders, Pogba from the left into midfield and we passed quite well around Liverpools pressing then after the 1-1 we completely lost the plot, no more movement, possession loss in our own third again and again because there was no one offering an easy passing option. It would have really shocked me if I wasn't so used to this face of our team by now.
But the thing that really shocks me is that our players simply refuse to hoof it, even under pressure. Shaw who has been so good in recent months rather dribbles into midfield and loses the ball leaving the entire left side exposed than trying to hammer the ball forward to one of the numpties who refuse to come deep. I mean even if the plan is to pass it short, if you have no passing option hoof it, still better to lose a long ball in their half than lose the ball in our own third. That doesn't only go for Shaw though, just as much for the other 3 defenders as well as our brain-dead midfield.
Whilst we have scored plenty of goals this season which is to be highly commended, we are still highly disorganised when defending set pieces (free kicks and corners) and still cannot play out from the back when put under anything like a molecule of pressure. If that’s not awful coaching (or at least naive coaching) , I’m not sure what is.
We don’t have chequebook owners
Maguire is the only one who can head. I’ve been saying it for ages we don’t put enough emphasis on basic defending when judging defenders especially centre half’s
Citys big game record is shocking and theyre champions?
Tbh I don't think money is our problem. We have spent plenty, more than any other club except City, and also has one of the highest wage bills. But what do we do with that money, and are we developing enough in our coaching? That's a way bigger issue IMO.
City's big game record is won 6, drawn 2, lost 4.
They've had a terrible season by their recent standards and still have 3x the wins from big games that we do...?
We certainly move the ball a lot slower than other clubs, I would be intrested in a stat that showed the average time a man United player kept hold of the ball before passing it. Compared to a City of Liverpool player.
The sad part is that originally it's not tiki taka. The old Ajax sides didn't play tiki taka. They have a lot of individual flair too. It's just common sense football.
A good example is Rashford. He runs with the ball all the way to the opposition box. By that time he has three players blocking him or his pass to a team mate. Once or twice is acceptable. But doing the same old thing for two years? It's insanity. But Ole couldn't stop him doing it.
McTominay doesn't know what to do when we have the ball. He hides behind an opposing player. Our corners. It's not just one issue. Yes Ole doesn't coach but he is responsible for his coaching staff.
Ole's persistence with shit zonal marking is what boils my piss.
If the fact that we're the 2nd worst team in the league for conceding at set-pieces doesn't make him consider some sort of change then I don't know what will.
If the fact that we're the 2nd worst team in the league for conceding at set-pieces doesn't make him consider some sort of change then I don't know what will.
Absolutely agree. Seems the coaches leave players to sort out the problem. Last night when Liverpool changed to a high press we were incapable of passing through it so lost control of the game completely. No tactical adjustment until game was gone. Defence all over the place.
Most damning of all is the inability to harness players talent. Pogba is a world class player but does fit into Ole’s pattern Last night when he got desperate and freed Pogba and Bruno we controlled the game for a period. As further evidence, look at the players who have “failed” at Old Trafford but gone elsewhere and starred: lukaku, DiMaria, Lingard, Evans, etc
Only significant difference between City, Liverpool Chelsea and us is the quality and clarity of management and coaching. World class teams need world class managers and coaches. No-one would put our lot anywhere near that level
Most damning of all is the inability to harness players talent. Pogba is a world class player but does fit into Ole’s pattern Last night when he got desperate and freed Pogba and Bruno we controlled the game for a period. As further evidence, look at the players who have “failed” at Old Trafford but gone elsewhere and starred: lukaku, DiMaria, Lingard, Evans, etc
Only significant difference between City, Liverpool Chelsea and us is the quality and clarity of management and coaching. World class teams need world class managers and coaches. No-one would put our lot anywhere near that level
And that's where this whole thing will fall apart. This team needs a manager that can improve the team beyond the sum of its parts. Many managers have done it. Along with wise investment. We'll be stuck in this perpetual stage of rebuild as we are.
I agree that we are badly coached. There were several examples of it just last night.
Trying to play out from the back against a team with such an effective press for one thing.
A good coach will identify players strengths & weaknesses and improve a player. Has Olé done so?
I think not.
At best we are threading water under his management.
Trying to play out from the back against a team with such an effective press for one thing.
A good coach will identify players strengths & weaknesses and improve a player. Has Olé done so?
I think not.
At best we are threading water under his management.
For many years, we haven’t really been a team that is more than the sum of our parts. The problem is, as the bar has been raised, our rivals coached by Pep and Klopp have been exactly that. They are less about the brilliance of their individual players than they are about the quality of their unit. And their individuals are pretty good too!
Liverpool and City in recent years have been, I would say, 20-30% better than the simple sum of their parts. That 20-30% accounts for majority, if not all of the difference between them and us. I don’t think their players are as much better as is made out. I don’t think we can look at any of their best performers and confidently say they would have been at the same level if they were at United the last 3 years.
We will always be on the backfoot if our grand plan is to try and bridge that 20-30% gap by simply buying individuals that are 20-30% better than the ones they have. It’s just unlikely to happen. The way it has been in recent years, it’s like we need Mbappé, Neymar, Varane etc to compete. As a collective - nothing special. Which is why; irrespective of result, more often than not in recent years, we play poorly. It’s also why the solution always seems to be in the transfer market. Buy better and better. These players Liverpool and City are buying were of no greater calibre than the ones we buy when all players were at their respective previous clubs. It isn’t like they all just buy the world’s best while we shop in a different market. It’s what happens when they get to these respective clubs that is the main difference.
Liverpool and City in recent years have been, I would say, 20-30% better than the simple sum of their parts. That 20-30% accounts for majority, if not all of the difference between them and us. I don’t think their players are as much better as is made out. I don’t think we can look at any of their best performers and confidently say they would have been at the same level if they were at United the last 3 years.
We will always be on the backfoot if our grand plan is to try and bridge that 20-30% gap by simply buying individuals that are 20-30% better than the ones they have. It’s just unlikely to happen. The way it has been in recent years, it’s like we need Mbappé, Neymar, Varane etc to compete. As a collective - nothing special. Which is why; irrespective of result, more often than not in recent years, we play poorly. It’s also why the solution always seems to be in the transfer market. Buy better and better. These players Liverpool and City are buying were of no greater calibre than the ones we buy when all players were at their respective previous clubs. It isn’t like they all just buy the world’s best while we shop in a different market. It’s what happens when they get to these respective clubs that is the main difference.
Prob would be better if we stopped filling every role with ex united players and just tried to bring in some top quality assistant coaches to help Ole out with the little things.
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I wouldn’t t say it’s even the high press per se that’s the problem. It’s about matching your tactics to the abilities of your players. Something I think you do quite effectively with Rashford for example. If you’re aiming to get the ball quickly to your deeper lying midfielders and relying on them to turn quickly and play swift decisive passes then you need players who aren’t Fred or Mctominay. They absolutely have their strengths (you are second for a reason), but transitioning possession into effective attacks is not one of them.
You should find another club to root for.
I agree with you, our press has no form, it seems as though we press when it occurs to one of us and others join in if they feel like it. And I miss Ashley Young’s crosses.
Agree with that but knowing the sensitivity of large chunks of that forum, I'd add this: Ole does and has done terrific job in consolidating the club and the team. Whoever would take over, has an infinitely better starting position than the one, Ole had to work with.