Its not just question of knowing how to sell players, its about persuading them to leave as well. If, lets say an average a player is getting near the 30 year old mark, is on a good contract with 2 or more years to run, then he's not going to volunteer to go, its up to the club/manager to persuade them to go, "its in your best interest son". Jose worked something of a miracle in moving Rooney on, but Ole probably does not (as yet) have the experience/guile/whatever to do this yet! Where is a Director of Football when you need one?
We don't know how to sell players
- Thread starter Andycoleno9
- Start date
What a weird analogyOf course, part of the problem is that even if that player has finished his contract, we just give him a new one!
I have no idea why, but we’re horrendous in selling players, oddly enough we became a tad better at it with Woodward, under Gill it was far worse.
What we got for Beckham was an insult.
What we got for Beckham was an insult.
So apart from the usual Darmian links to "X" or "Y" Italian team, are there any reports about interest in our "deadwood" players?
I've looked at our official website to check the actual size of our squad - excluding J. Pereira and Fosu-Mensah (one will be on loan again and the other has a severe injury, hasn't recovered yet) and including Tuanzebe, plus the 2 new signings, we have a total of 26 members of the team.
How exactly are we going to buy more players if we don't sell anyone first? Also, what chances do youth players like Gomes, Chong and Greenwood have when United has such a bloated squad?
I've looked at our official website to check the actual size of our squad - excluding J. Pereira and Fosu-Mensah (one will be on loan again and the other has a severe injury, hasn't recovered yet) and including Tuanzebe, plus the 2 new signings, we have a total of 26 members of the team.
How exactly are we going to buy more players if we don't sell anyone first? Also, what chances do youth players like Gomes, Chong and Greenwood have when United has such a bloated squad?
Jose effect? For all his faults with us, he was decent at moving players and getting decent fees to seemed.
Agreed. It's just as important to move on some of our underperforming players as the signings we make imo. Show that Ole's words about underperforming were not just that, words.
I don't see how it's Solskjaer's fault that noone has been sold yet. This is the board's job, there also has to be desire from the players to leave and their agents to look for new teams.
Ole has the least amount of input in this process, in my opinion, apart from telling the club hierarchy that he wants the consistent underperformers and the permanently injured ones to be quickly moved on.
I guess the point has been proven?
I agreed on this.
In fact, I wrote a post about this a few days ago. This is how MCFC got rid of their deadwood - they just allowed the deadwood to float away.
Even now, we are renewing contracts of deadwood who can barely the bench of our team - a team which would go on to lose draw and lose to the 2 worst teams in the league last season.
Bumping this because ...well, it all still stands. Will we sell someone?
We have two very good gk. Both have big salary (especially Dave) and for Hendo we can get easily 40mil €. Why to keep both?
Lingard, Williams and James are backup of a backup. For each of them we can get 15mil at least.
Jones? What to say anymore about him? Even Bailly if we are signing Varane should be considered for selling.
We have two very good gk. Both have big salary (especially Dave) and for Hendo we can get easily 40mil €. Why to keep both?
Lingard, Williams and James are backup of a backup. For each of them we can get 15mil at least.
Jones? What to say anymore about him? Even Bailly if we are signing Varane should be considered for selling.
There has to be a buyer for said players. There has to be a club willing to pay an acceptable fee. There has to be a club the player wishes to move to on a sporting and financial level. It's not a case of just turfing these guys out, there are many extremely good reasons why it's difficult for us to sell players.
If they sell them for a low fee because it's the only way to get rid of them people complain and if they don't get sold people still complain. It's not an easy job, quite evidently. If it was we'd be rid of some players, I don't think the ownership is paying them for fun.
If they sell them for a low fee because it's the only way to get rid of them people complain and if they don't get sold people still complain. It's not an easy job, quite evidently. If it was we'd be rid of some players, I don't think the ownership is paying them for fun.
Theres not many deals being done anywhere right now, so finding buyers for players such as Lingard isn't as easy this season as it has been previously, hence the reason you are seeing so many players running down their contracts.
Our transfer business has been ok in recent years though, hasnt it? We've cleared the decks well i think.
The window has only been open for 6 days.
I think sometimes we also think in distorted terms about some of our players and their actual value and worth to other teams. There is always a good reason we are trying to shift them, usually form or injury related - we are not a club that scours the market for profit making opportunities, we buy players, hope they perform and if not they gradually get phased out. It is no coincidence that Lingard is a player we can expect to do well with, he's been on loan and shown value.
Somebody like Bailly is very unappealing to other sides, for example. If you were Aston Villa, Spurs, or whoever why would you punt on Bailly who would be taking a step down and yet would want big wages, no logical reason to do it at all. They could trust their own scouting and buy somebody else that is less hassle.
Who would want Jones under any circumstances?
Why is Williams worth much of anything to another side? He's worth a negligible fee, he's completely unproven. Playing a handful of times for Man Utd doesn't mean he's worth much unless he excelled, he has been average.
Why would anyone spend 40 mill on Henderson? He's a decent looking keeper and that's as far as it goes, we also gave him a wage hike to make this even less probable - that would be a colossal outlay for a goalkeeper that's had a few years on loan and one season with us where he's been okay.
DeGea we won't be able to get rid of without accepting a negligible fee as we made a mistake with his contract. At least in hindsight it was a mistake.
People talk about Chelsea and such but it helps when you're selling younger players, players that are hungry, players that haven't already hit the max wages they're ever likely to earn, or people that have been out on loan or generally performed well but you just don't fancy them. We're always trying to shift players that are a real tough sell and I think that's why we have historically struggled.
Somebody like Bailly is very unappealing to other sides, for example. If you were Aston Villa, Spurs, or whoever why would you punt on Bailly who would be taking a step down and yet would want big wages, no logical reason to do it at all. They could trust their own scouting and buy somebody else that is less hassle.
Who would want Jones under any circumstances?
Why is Williams worth much of anything to another side? He's worth a negligible fee, he's completely unproven. Playing a handful of times for Man Utd doesn't mean he's worth much unless he excelled, he has been average.
Why would anyone spend 40 mill on Henderson? He's a decent looking keeper and that's as far as it goes, we also gave him a wage hike to make this even less probable - that would be a colossal outlay for a goalkeeper that's had a few years on loan and one season with us where he's been okay.
DeGea we won't be able to get rid of without accepting a negligible fee as we made a mistake with his contract. At least in hindsight it was a mistake.
People talk about Chelsea and such but it helps when you're selling younger players, players that are hungry, players that haven't already hit the max wages they're ever likely to earn, or people that have been out on loan or generally performed well but you just don't fancy them. We're always trying to shift players that are a real tough sell and I think that's why we have historically struggled.
James, Hendo, Lingard and Williams would be the only players , other clubs would be interested.
To be fair, all of them will fetch decent fees.
To be fair, all of them will fetch decent fees.
That is why i said "Will we..?"
Why sell players when you can just extend their contract? See Mata and Jones.
We can't sell players because our contracts are ludicrous and we get taken to the cleaners by every agent in the business.
This was largely why we couldnt move on Darmian and Rojo for so long, and their contracts look pretty reasonable compared to Martial, De Gea, Hendersons etc.
Who is going to pay Martial 250k a week, or pay De Gea 350k, or Henderson 120k, or even Lingard ~100k, other than us?
Nobody else is that stupid. The only players that attract any interest are the ones who havent been in the first team long enough to get their 'payday' contract, which is James and Williams right now.
This was largely why we couldnt move on Darmian and Rojo for so long, and their contracts look pretty reasonable compared to Martial, De Gea, Hendersons etc.
Who is going to pay Martial 250k a week, or pay De Gea 350k, or Henderson 120k, or even Lingard ~100k, other than us?
Nobody else is that stupid. The only players that attract any interest are the ones who havent been in the first team long enough to get their 'payday' contract, which is James and Williams right now.
four weeks almost, it runs from June 9th to end of August
You are right.
We have given useless players at the time, obscene contracts when they should have been moved on. Jones for example; Why would he move to a lower club (if we could find one who would take him), to sit in the medical room for a quarter of the salary when he can do the same here. Grant, Mata must think its xmas every day since they had their contracts renewed.
De Gea although not useless is another who will never leave even if it means sitting on the bench, or we paying about 75% of his contract to play for someone else.
Pogba will be offered a fortune to stay when his hearts not in it. I hope he has the principle of wanting to play for whoever and turns it down.
Other clubs make more money off their players for a few reasons.
They don’t stick on u21 international youth players that they don’t think they will use in the next season or two. They sell while the hype is still high and their wages are still low. Take Brewster for example. I’d say he was on about 1/3 of what someone like Pereria was or Chong is now. Of course clubs can afford a bigger transfer fee when the wages are a lot lower. Selling players who haven’t shown everything in senior football also makes it harder for buying clubs to judge the true potential of players. They are buying into the hype of youth football as much as our fans do with our own youth and most aren’t up to PL standard at the end of the day.
Loans: we don’t do this all that well but I’m assuming we will have a loan army soon enough with all the extra new youth talent we’ve hoovered up. Chelsea and city have used this market to boost players values a lot more than us. They still keep the cream around the first team and will obviously lose some premium prospects along the way but it’s been profitable for them.
Protecting the value of squad players- who is going to pay a healthy fee for Jones/Rojo/Lingard etc when they never play and they are on massive money. Some contracts should just be let run out like Jones Matic Mata Rojo etc. I think they are just holding places for us until youth comes through or someone better is signed. It’s slow and doesn’t make financial sense from the outside but I guess there’s some internal reasoning to it
We could seriously slash the wage bill and actually boost the quality of the squad by quite a bit but we don’t go for major rebuilds on any given year. I think that’s a fairly standard approach to team building. We also give youth more chances to play regular first team here than pretty much any club these days apart from maybe Arsenal? Villa seem to be developing something decent at the minute too….
They don’t stick on u21 international youth players that they don’t think they will use in the next season or two. They sell while the hype is still high and their wages are still low. Take Brewster for example. I’d say he was on about 1/3 of what someone like Pereria was or Chong is now. Of course clubs can afford a bigger transfer fee when the wages are a lot lower. Selling players who haven’t shown everything in senior football also makes it harder for buying clubs to judge the true potential of players. They are buying into the hype of youth football as much as our fans do with our own youth and most aren’t up to PL standard at the end of the day.
Loans: we don’t do this all that well but I’m assuming we will have a loan army soon enough with all the extra new youth talent we’ve hoovered up. Chelsea and city have used this market to boost players values a lot more than us. They still keep the cream around the first team and will obviously lose some premium prospects along the way but it’s been profitable for them.
Protecting the value of squad players- who is going to pay a healthy fee for Jones/Rojo/Lingard etc when they never play and they are on massive money. Some contracts should just be let run out like Jones Matic Mata Rojo etc. I think they are just holding places for us until youth comes through or someone better is signed. It’s slow and doesn’t make financial sense from the outside but I guess there’s some internal reasoning to it
We could seriously slash the wage bill and actually boost the quality of the squad by quite a bit but we don’t go for major rebuilds on any given year. I think that’s a fairly standard approach to team building. We also give youth more chances to play regular first team here than pretty much any club these days apart from maybe Arsenal? Villa seem to be developing something decent at the minute too….
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Under normal circumstances I think clubs would be in for James, Lingard, henderson(if he was for sale) Bailly, Chong and Matic (probably Italian clubs). Unfortunately because of covid its not a sellers market. I forgot Andreas. The best we can get for James, Chong and Matic(probably paying half his wages) is probably loans. Lingard and Bailly are left with a year and should be sold.
Top point.
We seem to feel some sense of obligation to give a player a chance after a half decent loan spell or two, see Periera. Should have sold him off the back of the hype post Valencia.
Then you have cases like Williams where he had a few decent performances but started to show naivety in his game only to be kept around the club for a season doing nothing & stagnating in terms of value. He’s a prime example of a player we should have sold after we he small sample product on offer; we had AWB & Shaw, the boy would have to be generational to get ahead of them.
That said we’re 6 days into July so let’s see what the ‘new’ regime can do.
I don't know if it's because we overrate our players but objectively speaking our players aren't very attractive to suitors, Andreas, Dalot, Jones, even Lingard these aren't good players
Take Dalot specifically both he and Tomori were on loan at Milan last season, Milan moved heaven and earth to sign one permanently the other they only want on loan for another year with a mere option to buy
Take Dalot specifically both he and Tomori were on loan at Milan last season, Milan moved heaven and earth to sign one permanently the other they only want on loan for another year with a mere option to buy
He’s supposedly on over 50k already too? That ship has probably sailed for your Southampton’s to go buying him unless we are willing to let him go very cheap. You’re hoping he does well and someone like West Ham/Everton come in and will pay a solid fee and improve his wages. That’s the level we are paying entry level squad players at these days and it cuts out a lot of the smaller clubs who would pay a great fee to try and catch up.to the rest
Brandon first season was very good as a never played senior match 18 year old, in the second season he hardly had a sniff because of fantastic Shaw and AWB and more experienced Telles. Sure his cameos were not the best, pretty underwhelming but it's hard to play every 12th game to start with and also on your paradoxically worse right side, mostly in nothing games full of squad players put under pressure.
Also he was kept around as a back up because of his ability to play both fullbacks while he certainly needed more games to develop. He's 20 still so could spend even two, not just one season in a EPL team playing regularly, getting his confidence back and playing rhytm, then he could be ready to take a step up or he could be offloaded but I don't see why he would have to be sold so early. He's definitely much more talented than McTominay but he only got better by being played regularly, so I wouldn't write him off just yet.
Selling one player after one bad season is stupid anyway. And also it's so clever to claim things in a hindsight.
BTW Pereira I am not sure we had buyers and Lazio had little money to invest in him, in Valencia he didn't show all that much to get some decent money for him, it was sensible to send him somewhere where he could shine. Same with Dalot.. This is not football manager.
I think we’ve been good under Ole in moving players on. I definitely think we’ll find buyers for James and Lingard. If we stick with DeGea we should have no issues getting a buyer for Henderson (though we will struggle if we want to sell DDG). I could see Arsenal or Spurs going after Bailly if he was on the market for a good price too. Some of these players could be used as make weights in deals either which might be appealing to some clubs we are dealing with.
I don’t think it helps negotiations when clubs can see you’ve made 60 mil from selling driftwood so I doubt there’s any real rush to move them on just yet.
I don’t think it helps negotiations when clubs can see you’ve made 60 mil from selling driftwood so I doubt there’s any real rush to move them on just yet.
I stand corrected, I thought it was July 1st
I simply think he’s too erratic & his early promise has been followed by a series of underwhelming displays.
I see little point in ‘keeping him around’ because he can play multiple positions when the manager is reluctant to trust him at RB & has 2 better LBs.
As you say, he’s only 20 so there’s a lot of room for development, I still think we wasted an opportunity to showcase the lad last season.
You’re correct this isn’t Football Manager.
I was saying we should have attempted to sell him after the Valencia loan instead of messing about with him for 2 seasons in some weird hope he’d pan out.
‘he didn’t show all that much’ [I agree] yet he came back, was given a ‘proper’ squad number & played in 15 league games the following season & 25 leagues games the next.
I think we should have tried to sell him post Valencia, if that’s the thing of management simulator then fine.
Not sure what Dalot has to do with it.
Another fair point.
The above poster mentioned Dalot & he stands out as one similar case.
Bought for near £20mil & undoubtedly on a substantial wage for his age given that outlay, it automatically prices him out of a number of deals for clubs he’d be able to improve at. Milan see the talent but don’t want the outlay.
When a talent like Greenwood comes through you somewhat negotiate on equal terms but Williams was given a bumper deal then fell dramatically down the pecking order; we’re now as you say hoping a West Ham/Everton managers takes a fancy to him.
Me and a Utd supporting mate say this all the time. We leave it far too late to maximise the value for our younger players. We usually give them wages that would put them in the middle bracket in most mid-table teams and then stick them on the bench for a season or two, making them a completely unattractive proposition.
With a player like Williams, as soon as they have played 10 games and shown some ability, we should be looking to offload for £15m, which we would most likely easily get. We could always insist on a £25m buy-back clause so that if they do keep improving we haven't really lost anything significant.
Tuanzebe is another example. After a successful loan in the Championship with Villa and at the height of the transfer market boom we could have got £20m at least. Now what? Another loan? Just don't get it. Get them sold with buy backs! It's rare players fulfill potential when sent out on loan anyway, they need to leave and get a proper chance to stand on their own two feet
We really are Terrible at it.
Look at Liverpool they sell absolute dross fro 15+ million consistently.
Look at Liverpool they sell absolute dross fro 15+ million consistently.
Slow down we’ve barely just learnt how to buy players
There is no proof we are better at that just yet. Will to see the outcome if this window and a few others
long reply alert!
Exactly, you’re dead right. If they are not ready to start here at 21/22 sell on before that contract they get put on PL wages with a buy back clause. You’ve still got 3 or 4 more years to judge then. Barca and Real let go of more promising players than the likes of Williams Pereria or Chong on the regular and it does them no harm. If they are good enough they’ll find their way back. We’ve done our part if we get them a good club that’ll play them lots when we can’t.
I understand we want to fill out the squad with our youth and in one way initially its cost effective but id argue it works out more expensive in the end on and off the pitch. One because we have to pay bigger money to the youth than he’s actually worth on the market (to not play much) and eventually let him go for peanuts once he decides he wants to play more. So we lose the potential fee and the wages haven’t actually helped improve the squad/it also blocks another potential transfer in and on top of that when they leave we eventually have to make the kind of transfer we initially needed to push the quality of the squad back up anyway.
Say instead you sell Williams for 20 million after he broke out and we put that towards a Nuno Gomes or someone like that and gave him 100k a week and he’s really pushing Shaw to the limit, they are keeping each other fresh and honest and Shaw gets injured for a season? That’s got to be better value than Williams on half that and rarely playing and not really developing and there being a visible drop off in quality when he does have to come in. It doesn’t push the squad quality and just holds a place until they decide they want to leave.
Say someone like Garner. If we have any doubts at all or think he’s going to need another few years then sell him on now and see how he gets on. Now or by the end of next season is the time to decide. Is he someone we would actually buy if he was at another team? when there are players like Camavinga and Bellingham out there on the market then that’s the standard you should probably be aiming for if you want to win stuff. That pushes your Fred’s and VDBs down the pecking order which can only be a good thing for us. Don’t get me wrong. I like Garner and Williams but I want us to be winning more CLs and I think to do that we need to be quite a bit more ruthless, for lack of a better word, when it comes to squad turnover and management. It could definitely provide us with a much greater revenue stream than we currently receive from it. We might also get some of these lads back as leading players if we let go a bit earlier.
I understand this is a 'bumped' thread and for good reason, but nobody in any of the new responses has mentioned the elephant in the room: Covid-19.
This has thrown a real spanner in the works and will continue to do so. A business as big as Man Utd. will make decisions based on future projections, but can those projections be relied upon right now? Ditto for other clubs, causing them to prefer loans to purchases or bargain players rather than 15-20 million Utd. cast-offs.
It was in the paper today that they reckon the 60,000 fans at Wembly tonight - and again on Sunday, for the final - will cause covid cases - will the same not happen when Old Trafford welcome 70,000 in August? The sombre mood in the recent No. 10 briefing leads me to believe crowds will be banned from football come November.... through to the spring probably - what would that cost a club with Utds capacity? Yes, the vaccines are great, but still a small % of vaccinated people get really quite ill and a small % of 100,000 a week is a pretty big number indeed.
Utd. have been poor at moving players on in the past and I think they will continue to be so, but the club hierarchy* can't be totally to blame, corona is a big issue too.
*Talking of which, I know around the time of the ESL kerfuffle Edward Woodwood announced he was leaving, but not then, this summer, yes? Has a replacement been lined up, are they working alongside him now? Otherwise player sales could be further hampered by this power-hand over.
This has thrown a real spanner in the works and will continue to do so. A business as big as Man Utd. will make decisions based on future projections, but can those projections be relied upon right now? Ditto for other clubs, causing them to prefer loans to purchases or bargain players rather than 15-20 million Utd. cast-offs.
It was in the paper today that they reckon the 60,000 fans at Wembly tonight - and again on Sunday, for the final - will cause covid cases - will the same not happen when Old Trafford welcome 70,000 in August? The sombre mood in the recent No. 10 briefing leads me to believe crowds will be banned from football come November.... through to the spring probably - what would that cost a club with Utds capacity? Yes, the vaccines are great, but still a small % of vaccinated people get really quite ill and a small % of 100,000 a week is a pretty big number indeed.
Utd. have been poor at moving players on in the past and I think they will continue to be so, but the club hierarchy* can't be totally to blame, corona is a big issue too.
*Talking of which, I know around the time of the ESL kerfuffle Edward Woodwood announced he was leaving, but not then, this summer, yes? Has a replacement been lined up, are they working alongside him now? Otherwise player sales could be further hampered by this power-hand over.
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Imo the biggest reason here is we've been running like a business not a football club. Thus the so called "protecting the assets".
Imo the ones in charge of United in this, must answer and explain before the Glazers why you let this X player, which is valued at or bought for £Ym left for free. It's their money. No one would like to have to do that, it's not like the Glazers understand or know shit about football anyway, none would want to lose their lucrative job over this. Just extend their contracts, leave them on the book to look good and get paid handsomely.
Surely Ole would want some of the deadwoods gone but he definitely does not have the final say on this. I'd doubt if he'd be able to see the Glazers once a year.
If you pay attention to the deadwoods who have left us you'd see they basically fall into two categories:
1. We were able to recoup almost the fee we paid for them.
2. They're really old so the Y dropped significantly. Young for example.
Even for the players who we signed on a free like Romero we still haggled for a couple millions more then ended up getting nothing.
Things seem to change recently but after the renewals of Mata and Grant imo it's still the same regarding this matter. At least for the near future I think.
Imo the ones in charge of United in this, must answer and explain before the Glazers why you let this X player, which is valued at or bought for £Ym left for free. It's their money. No one would like to have to do that, it's not like the Glazers understand or know shit about football anyway, none would want to lose their lucrative job over this. Just extend their contracts, leave them on the book to look good and get paid handsomely.
Surely Ole would want some of the deadwoods gone but he definitely does not have the final say on this. I'd doubt if he'd be able to see the Glazers once a year.
If you pay attention to the deadwoods who have left us you'd see they basically fall into two categories:
1. We were able to recoup almost the fee we paid for them.
2. They're really old so the Y dropped significantly. Young for example.
Even for the players who we signed on a free like Romero we still haggled for a couple millions more then ended up getting nothing.
Things seem to change recently but after the renewals of Mata and Grant imo it's still the same regarding this matter. At least for the near future I think.
I think that is a fair point, we are really terrible at selling players.
Honestly, i think the biggest issue has been the ridiculous wages we have been handing out left and right. This has improved somewhat the last few years, but we still have loads of players on our books that take home much more than they are worth. Take Martial for example, hes earning 250k/week. What club is going to want to match those wages?
This is the main reason. The board are more concerned with players walking away for nothing that you give them contract extensions rather undeservedly.
Look at Phil Jones. Boy has barely seen any game time in years yet you gave him a contract until 2023. Since his value has plummeted tremendously will he get a new deal next summer or in 2 Christmas’ ?
According to Wikipedia Jones has played 165 league games since 2011, who knows how many starts. In 10 years he should have accumulated 380 had he fulfilled his potential and stayed fit. With all the cup games probably 600-700 appearances. I bet he isn’t even on half that. Still new contract came.
Glazers need to be ruthless.
We're still paying the price for terrible manager appointments.
Clearing deadwood such as Alexis, Darmian, Fellaini was great work. The clearing out is not quite there yet. De Gea, Pogba and Martial will not be around much longer, but probably still here after the summer!
Clearing deadwood such as Alexis, Darmian, Fellaini was great work. The clearing out is not quite there yet. De Gea, Pogba and Martial will not be around much longer, but probably still here after the summer!