We will never win the league with Bruno Fernandes in the team...

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Terranova

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i expected Ten Hag to move him to the wing, like he did with Ziyech at Ajax. Both have/had similar problems, not really suited for a spot on the midfield due to playing risky passes. Ziyech was moved to the right wing in order for him to be able to keep playing those risky passes, because losing possession on that position is less dangerous.
But Ten Hag brought in Antony, so i don't see it happening anymore.
 
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I wish the only thing stopping us winning the league was Bruno. Sadly, we won't win the league again whilst the Glazers are here. We are a million miles behind City.
 

Rozay

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I thought De Gea/Maguire/Shaw/Rashford/Sancho/McTominay/Fred were the ones to blame!
Think people are still missing the point. We have some poor players. Poorer than Bruno. Again, it isn’t the point. I’m not sure why people struggle to grasp it solely when it comes to Bruno. It seems so much easier to understand with players like Pogba, De Gea, Ronaldo, Lukaku - other players who are top players too but have deficiencies that impact the flow of the team.

Bruno‘s role is too central to the direction of a team. ‘Ole Ball’ is not good enough to win this league over 38 games now. ‘Ten Hag Ball’ cannot be built to its best with Bruno.

We have a goalkeeper who has simply been the outstanding keeper in the country over the last decade who I read every day is holding us back due to style. The narrative is we cannot play out from the back well enough with De Gea and as a result cannot be a top team. A keeper who has objectively been the best in the world. It seems however that once Bruno’s name is mentioned, for some, they refuse to even consider these issues at all. Football has changed for De Gea, football has changed for even Ronaldo - but some cannot comprehend it as anything more than some sort of personal vendetta to suggest that the ability to keep the ball is undermined by a number 10 who cannot keep the ball!
 

RedDevil@84

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when we had finally found some good balance with Pogba as the most advanced midfielder and Herrera and Matic behind
Not sure what this is all about. Pogba, who missed 81 games in 5 seasons and voted by caf as someone with whom we can't win the league, Herrera, who wanted to leave and again voted by caf as someone who is not good enough to win the league with and old Matic.
 

led_scholes

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Agree. We were perfectly fine, if not better, for that spell when he was inured and missing under Ole. For some stupid reason he is never dropped never even subbed. He is on a bizarre wage, and taking up a position that fits Erikson perfectly. Honestly, I would play Lingard over Bruno as a 10.
No manager in the world would pick Lingard over Bruno.

Bruno can do with half a gum what Lingard can do with a ball. And he is actually a top footballer, not a guy who had a purple patch month five years ago.
 

Red00012

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Bruno Fernandes will be well gone and probably retired before we win a league again would be a more appropriate thread
@Rozay
 

Greck

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Exactly what I was going to say, with or without him, we will not win the league any time soon.
Don't quote me but I think the point is to focus on the with. The existence of other factors holding us back are beyond contention.

I wouldn't say full yes but I believe there are massive challenges to being consistent over a 38 game format with Bruno as a main cog. Same goes for anyone that needs to be carried in basic positional requirements
 
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Strootman's Finger

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I agree with the sentiment of the thread, I just think the title is deceiving, or distracting from the real issue.

Now I like Bruno, just bought a shirt with his name on it last year, but he will be an issue for United moving forward. Discussing whether him, individually, is preventing us from winning the league is pointless, because we aren't winning the league anytime soon for myriad reasons.

What the real issue is is whether or not Bruno will suit an Erik ten Hag system, or the type of football he would like us to play going forward. I think he's done a decent job as captain, and we had some great results, but we aren't playing ten Hag ball yet, we are setting up in a low block and hitting on the break, because EtH has chosen to solidify the defense and build from there. This has given hope that Bruno can keep his place and thrive under EtH, but it's false hope, right now playing defensively and hitting on the break suits Bruno, it allows his to make his hollywood passes and wild shots, because it's happening in a quick counterattack.

However, when EtH tries to move to a more possession based system is where Bruno will be exposed. As OP stated, he doesn't retain possession, he doesn't receive the ball, take a moment, assess his options, and make a pass, or dribble forward, what he does is receive the ball and pass it on or shot it all in one quick motion. You can't set up passing triangles when the top of the triangle hoofs the ball forward whenever he gets it.
 

RedDevil@84

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Think people are still missing the point. We have some poor players. Poorer than Bruno. Again, it isn’t the point. I’m not sure why people struggle to grasp it solely when it comes to Bruno. It seems so much easier to understand with players like Pogba, De Gea, Ronaldo, Lukaku - other players who are top players too but have deficiencies that impact the flow of the team.

Bruno‘s role is too central to the direction of a team. ‘Ole Ball’ is not good enough to win this league over 38 games now. ‘Ten Hag Ball’ cannot be built to its best with Bruno.

We have a goalkeeper who has simply been the outstanding keeper in the country over the last decade who I read every day is holding us back due to style. The narrative is we cannot play out from the back well enough with De Gea and as a result cannot be a top team. A keeper who has objectively been the best in the world. It seems however that once Bruno’s name is mentioned, for some, they refuse to even consider these issues at all. Football has changed for De Gea, football has changed for even Ronaldo - but some cannot comprehend it as anything more than some sort of personal vendetta to suggest that the ability to keep the ball is undermined by a number 10 who cannot keep the ball!
I think you are missing the point. If we have a team full of absolute best players who you could win a league with, then it makes sense to have a thread about Bruno, because he will be the only player we need to upgrade. Else there is nothing that important that cannot be discussed in the Bruno performance thread. We have players like Ronaldo, Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Fred, McT, AWB, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, De Gea who are not good enough to win the league with, if we take them individually.
All those could still be part of a title winning team, but then so could Bruno.

So either you are arguing that even if we upgrade everyone else, we will not win title, because of Bruno or you are making a moot point which is pretty much valid for almost 90% of the team.
 

RORY65

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I would imagine none of these players will be in the team by the time we're ready to win the league again. Not sure why Bruno is specifically the issue when we've conceded 4 or more goals in 8 of our last 38 league games, generally good teams don't get battered in more than 20% of their league games.
 

the_cliff

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Ok but if he was in the team, would it stop City winning the league this year?
Ok maybe the title should be changed to 'we will never win the league with Bruno in the starting 11'

Would that make it better ? Because he can go to City, sit on the bench and still win a league.
 

Rozay

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I agree with the sentiment of the thread, I just think the title is deceiving, or distracting from the real issue.

Now I like Bruno, just bought a shirt with his name on it last year, but he will be an issue for United moving forward. Discussing whether him, individually, is preventing us from winning the league is pointless, because we aren't winning the league anytime soon for myriad reasons.

What the real issue is is whether or not Bruno will suit an Erik ten Hag system, or the type of football he would like us to play going forward. I think he's done a decent job as captain, and we had some great results, but we aren't playing ten Hag ball yet, we are setting up in a low block and hitting on the break, because EtH has chosen to solidify the defense and build from there. This has given hope that Bruno can keep his place and thrive under EtH, but it's false hope, right now playing defensively and hitting on the break suits Bruno, it allows his to make his hollywood passes and wild shots, because it's happening in a quick counterattack.

However, when EtH tries to move to a more possession based system is where Bruno will be exposed. As OP stated, he doesn't retain possession, he doesn't receive the ball, take a moment, assess his options, and make a pass, or dribble forward, what he does is receive the ball and pass it on or shot it all in one quick motion. You can't set up passing triangles when the top of the triangle hoofs the ball forward whenever he gets it.
It’s just the straw man some have chosen to attach themselves to. Like, all anyone would have to do is actually read the rationale put forward in the first post to understand the sentiment. But this is how conversation goes on the caf. You can go into a Scott McTominay performance thread and see people responding to criticism of a Scott McTominay performance with ‘I mean he was poor but anyone blaming him alone for x result is this or that’. I mean, it may strangely seem like there is a lot of Scott criticism in the Scott thread, but there are other threads too! To avoid the point of the discussion, people simply make a different one and argue that.

From the rest of your post, it seems you understood, but I don’t think it was shrouded in that much mystery.
 

Marwood

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Ok maybe the title should be changed to 'we will never win the league with Bruno in the starting 11'

Would that make it better ? Because he can go to City, sit on the bench and still win a league.
So if he was in the starting 11 City wouldn't win the league this year?

Just trying to gauge how bad folk think Bruno is.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Think people are still missing the point. We have some poor players. Poorer than Bruno. Again, it isn’t the point. I’m not sure why people struggle to grasp it solely when it comes to Bruno. It seems so much easier to understand with players like Pogba, De Gea, Ronaldo, Lukaku - other players who are top players too but have deficiencies that impact the flow of the team.

Bruno‘s role is too central to the direction of a team. ‘Ole Ball’ is not good enough to win this league over 38 games now. ‘Ten Hag Ball’ cannot be built to its best with Bruno.

We have a goalkeeper who has simply been the outstanding keeper in the country over the last decade who I read every day is holding us back due to style. The narrative is we cannot play out from the back well enough with De Gea and as a result cannot be a top team. A keeper who has objectively been the best in the world. It seems however that once Bruno’s name is mentioned, for some, they refuse to even consider these issues at all. Football has changed for De Gea, football has changed for even Ronaldo - but some cannot comprehend it as anything more than some sort of personal vendetta to suggest that the ability to keep the ball is undermined by a number 10 who cannot keep the ball!
It's because we're still very early into ETH's tenure and the transition, if it's going to happen, has only just begun. Most people don't look beyond stats. Some of them don't even go that far and trust the eye test, instead. Bruno offers end-product, and you certainly can't blame him for a lack of effort on the pitch. He is a popular figure, and for good reasons.

Something similar happened to Klopp with Coutinho. Everybody was wondering where the goals/assists, the creativity and the flair would come from. A lot of people believed that Liverpool were screwed. As it turned out, it was the best thing that could happen to Klopp. But back then, on January 2018, it wasn't easy to see it. But by the time they were almost ready to take the final step and become one of the top dogs in England/Europe, it was plainly clear that breaking the bank for Virgil and Alisson was money well-spent.

It's easier to point the finger at DDG when, yesterday, Ederson was the player with the third most touches on the pitch. More than any United player, if you can believe that. In a game in which City scored 6 and it wouldn't come as a surprise if they had scored 10 goals. You could see it with your own two eyes and the stats confirmed it afterward.
 

VidaRed

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Bruno would do well in a team that is dominating possession, not in a team that struggles to keep the ball.

Him trying fancy flicks do nothing except give the ball away 9 out of 10 times. And in a team struggling to keep possession its like adding fuel to fire.
 

TMDaines

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I would imagine none of these players will be in the team by the time we're ready to win the league again. Not sure why Bruno is specifically the issue when we've conceded 4 or more goals in 8 of our last 38 league games, generally good teams don't get battered in more than 20% of their league games.
Presumably because a lot of our fanbase still sees Bruno as part of the solution, rather than a player who actively needs to be phased out to allow a title-challenging side to be built.
 

Greck

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Bruno would do well in a team that is dominating possession, not in a team that struggles to keep the ball.

Him trying fancy flicks do nothing except give the ball away 9 out of 10 times in a team struggling to keep possession is like adding fuel to fire.
There's an unfortunate loop here in that even a team that tries to dominate possession only needs one player to lose the ball. His high error style would make it harder to sustain possession anywhere.
 

Rozay

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I think you are missing the point. If we have a team full of absolute best players who you could win a league with, then it makes sense to have a thread about Bruno, because he will be the only player we need to upgrade. Else there is nothing that important that cannot be discussed in the Bruno performance thread. We have players like Ronaldo, Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Fred, McT, AWB, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, De Gea who are not good enough to win the league with, if we take them individually.
All those could still be part of a title winning team, but then so could Bruno.

So either you are arguing that even if we upgrade everyone else, we will not win title, because of Bruno or you are making a moot point which is pretty much valid for almost 90% of the team.
I doubt I have missed my own point in making the thread.

And yes, your closing paragraph is exactly what I am am arguing. Which is no different to what people are arguing when they say ‘we cannot win the league with De Gea’ or any other player they choose to have the conversation about without putting the asterisk of ‘unless everyone else was an all time XI and there was no close rival’.

Otherwise I couldn’t even say ‘we will never win the league with @RedDevil@84 in the team without getting drawn into some ridiculous side argument. ‘A team, most relevantly ours, will never build a title winning team with Bruno at the heart of it*’ can be a better statement if you prefer.

And although Bruno is not our worst player (I’d never claim him to be that) - and we have others, I am more confident that City (given that’s the counter argument most used) would be more likely to win the league with Maguire, Shaw, Rashford, Sancho, Fred and all the other under-performers mentioned in this thread than with Bruno. These players are just there, and can all play their part in the right setting. Bruno is not an issue of form. Bruno ‘on form’ is still a problem in building a title winning team to me, because the best it can be will fall short because the approach that it needs to take is not good enough. That isn’t the case with Shaw. City won the league with Fabian Delph at LB. He just needs to be there and put in a shift. Bruno would actively impact the type of football they want to play.


*Except maybe Bayern Munich or Viktoria Plzen.
 

the_cliff

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So if he was in the starting 11 City wouldn't win the league this year?

Just trying to gauge how bad folk think Bruno is.
Let's say he took one of the 2 midfield spots in front of the pivot (KDB or Bernardo) it would massively change how they play and would be a huge downgrade, whether they'll win the league or not we'll never know but we do know he wouldn't get into that starting 11 and there's a reason he wouldn't.

They wouldn't be anywhere near as dominant in terms of recycling possession and therefore wouldn't dominate teams as much.
 

RORY65

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Presumably because a lot of our fanbase still sees Bruno as part of the solution, rather than a player who actively needs to be phased out to allow a title-challenging side to be built.
My point is the whole team will need to be phased out, we're years away from even thinking of competing for a title so why focus on Bruno specifically? Although his productivity has dropped and that's highlighted his failings even more he still produces more than other players in this team, he's not an issue for a team at best trying to compete for top 4.
 

Sky1981

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We won't likely win the squad with everyone of our squad on full best form, let alone having half the squad as passenger

Rashford, Bruno, Shaw/Malacia (pick one), Dalot, McTominay, good lord having all of them in the squad.... and in poor form... no chance in hell we're winning anything with this lot. A few lucky match here and there, a few good runs stringed every once in a while, but in terms of 38 games... no chance
 

Greck

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My point is the whole team will need to be phased out, we're years away from even thinking of competing for a title so why focus on Bruno specifically? Although his productivity has dropped and that's highlighted his failings even more he still produces more than other players in this team, he's not an issue for a team at best trying to compete for top 4.
You could use this logic to shut down the entire player performance forum. Team performances are a collective of several individual performance units, they can be discussed individually or collectively. It's only singling out if other player threads don't exist.
 

TMDaines

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My point is the whole team will need to be phased out, we're years away from even thinking of competing for a title so why focus on Bruno specifically? Although his productivity has dropped and that's highlighted his failings even more he still produces more than other players in this team, he's not an issue for a team at best trying to compete for top 4.
I disagree with that. United under the right management should be able to seriously compete for the title and trophies in the space of a few seasons. We are incredibly well resourced, despite being hamstrung by dividends. If ETH doesn't have us moving in the right direction, securing Champions League football, competing for trophies and then challenging for the league title, he will be moved on after two or three seasons: the same way Ole was, the same way Mourinho was, the same way LVG was.

If United only end up challenging for the league ten years from now, then it won't be because the groundwork is being laid now, or even in four or five years' time. It will be because we have got it wrong for several more years before getting it right. If ETH doesn't see some of these players as playing important roles in a title challenging side in the following two seasons, they need to be replaced. The resource is there.
 

Stacks

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I defended him to the hilt thinking he just needs different coaching but his quality on the ball is overrated. great shooter and finisher though. He should only receive the ball around the box. Not a real midfielder
 

RORY65

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You could use this logic to shut down the entire player performance forum. Team performances are a collective of several individual performance units, they can be discussed individually or collectively. It's only singling out if other player threads don't exist.
Then why not use the thread specifically there for Bruno? It just seems like a weird thread to say we won't the league with him in the team when you could say the same about every player in the team.
 

Rozay

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My point is the whole team will need to be phased out, we're years away from even thinking of competing for a title so why focus on Bruno specifically? Although his productivity has dropped and that's highlighted his failings even more he still produces more than other players in this team, he's not an issue for a team at best trying to compete for top 4.
I can agree with this much. Winning the title requires an elite unit, system and cohesion beyond what can be achieved with Bruno playing in the centre of it. Anything else, people can feel free to twist as they please - that’s basically the point right there.

It’s not even so much about ‘our team’ than ‘a’ team. I believe Bruno could be the star player in a very good team. Maybe even with POTY. That team won’t be the best team in the country though, unless there was a huge anomaly from somewhere. Because for Bruno to be that guy, the team cannot be that good/modern. Hence my assertion ‘we will never win the league with Bruno Fernandes in the team’. Any style of football that causes him to excel as the centrepiece has a ceiling, and one that falls below the very elite level of football, because they cannot play a level of football that would put them as the very best, with Bruno being a key in it.
 

RORY65

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I can agree with this much. Winning the title requires an elite unit, system and cohesion beyond what can be achieved with Bruno playing in the centre of it. Anything else, people can feel free to twist as they please - that’s basically the point right there.

It’s not even so much about ‘our team’ than ‘a’ team. I believe Bruno could be the star player in a very good team. Maybe even with POTY. That team won’t be the best team in the country though, unless there was a huge anomaly from somewhere. Because for Bruno to be that guy, the team cannot be that good/modern. Hence my assertion ‘we will never win the league with Bruno Fernandes in the team’. Any style of football that causes him to excel as the centrepiece has a ceiling, and one that falls below the very elite level of football, because they cannot play a level of football that would put them as the very best, with Bruno being a key in it.
This bit I can definitely agree with, that part is fair that relying so much on one player especially one who isn't quite top quality puts a limit on the team. Maybe I was too sensitive about the point of this thread in that case because right now I don't see anyone in the United team who would get in the City side.
 
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Greck

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Then why not use the thread specifically there for Bruno? It just seems like a weird thread to say we won't the league with him in the team when you could say the same about every player in the team.
It can be done anywhere. Have you seen that Dalot thread? He was the only first teamer with a thread on the front page despite being one of the least consequential players to our future. Bruno by contrast is believed to be a cornerstone foundation for the rebuild project. Some believe this would be a car crash and want the club (and fans) to reconsider. Let's avoid a boom bust disaster.
 

Irwin99

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I wish the only thing stopping us winning the league was Bruno. Sadly, we won't win the league again whilst the Glazers are here. We are a million miles behind City.
That was my reaction too. Some people will, quite correctly and understandably argue, that a lot of yesterday's players were EtH signings and that's true, but we also start a lot of players that i'm just not convinced will ever be top footballers or more than squad players. The culture here just isn't one of winners sadly and it will take ten Hag a lot of time to implement it, that's if he even can.

We've had Rashford, Martial, Dalot, Lindelof, Fred, DDG (yes he's already won one league title I know)Shaw, Mctominay, all for 5+years; can you win a league title against this City with these players starting most games? I'm not convinced the club is ruthless enough to assess things correctly. I think EtH is but the club itself?
 

Rozay

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We won't likely win the squad with everyone of our squad on full best form, let alone having half the squad as passenger

Rashford, Bruno, Shaw/Malacia (pick one), Dalot, McTominay, good lord having all of them in the squad.... and in poor form... no chance in hell we're winning anything with this lot.
A few lucky match here and there, a few good runs stringed every once in a while, but in terms of 38 games... no chance
However, I think any of those players could comfortably be a regular in any title winning side. Except Bruno. And McTominay, who I could make this same thread about if people like, although I assume everyone agrees with that.

Contrary to belief, I don’t think City have the best players in the world in every position. They don’t need them. They could have Shaw at LB and easily win the league. They could have Dalot instead of Cancelo and win the league. Could have swapped Sterling with Rashford. As long as their unit is able to function. Which is why they lost Aguero and didn’t even replace him.

Despite Bruno being considered better than Dalot, I’m confident Pep would prefer to add Dalot, or even Maguire to his XI than Bruno if he were forced to pick one because of the impact it would have on his team. I suspect he’d also take Welbeck over Lukaku or Nunez.
 

JPRouve

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Most won't get this reference here but I definitely see it :lol:
It's not just the washed version of Westbrook though. In fact I would compare him to prime Westbrook a brilliant soloist but not much more.
 

Marwood

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Let's say he took one of the 2 midfield spots in front of the pivot (KDB or Bernardo) it would massively change how they play and would be a huge downgrade, whether they'll win the league or not we'll never know but we do know he wouldn't get into that starting 11 and there's a reason he wouldn't.

They wouldn't be anywhere near as dominant in terms of recycling possession and therefore wouldn't dominate teams as much.
Sure but this whole thread is a prediction, a guess about his impact on winning titles.

So as an educated guess, would Bruno stop City winning the league this year?
 

Rozay

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This bit I can definitely agree with, that part is air that relying so much on one player especially one who isn't quite top quality puts a limit on the team. Maybe I was too sensitive about the point of this thread in that case because right now I don't see anyone in the United team who would get in the City side.
Indeed. Of course, Bruno happens to play for us.

And while our players are not better than City’s, I see many of our players who could play for for them. Not only ours too, but players from weaker teams than ours. It’s not as individual as is being made out. It’s more about the football a team can play, with of course players who can decide games. Liverpool couldn’t win the league with Lovren. But they can win it with Henderson. These are players of a similar level. They may have struggled to win it with Pogba - a better player than Henderson. People are of course sensitive regarding Bruno, but it’s not even as simple as ‘Bruno is shit, so we can’t win’. City are more likely to experience less disruption if they put Leandro Trossard in their team than Bruno Fernandes. Fernandes may well end a season with more goals than Trossard, but from a team perspective, he’s not as good a player.

City won the league with Delph at LB. Guardiola is a proper manager who seeks to build a team first and foremost, and score goals by method not by random moments of inspiration.
 

Rozay

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Sure but this whole thread is a prediction, a guess about his impact on winning titles.

So as an educated guess, would Bruno stop City winning the league this year?
Nope, it’s a dig from a Bruno hater by a Pogba lover, or something to that effect.
 

the_cliff

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Sure but this whole thread is a prediction, a guess about his impact on winning titles.

So as an educated guess, would Bruno stop City winning the league this year?
50/50, would certainly be a lot closer, would be a definite yes if Liverpool hadn't fallen of a cliff.
 

Infra-red

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The thread title is probably true regardless of which current United player's name you swap with Bruno's.

Genuinely do not think any of our lot are really up to winning the Premier League, individually or collectively.
 

AaronRedDevil

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I actually believe we won't win the PL ever again for a Loooong time. 10 years long. Just can't see it.
 
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