We will never win the league with Bruno Fernandes in the team...

Rozay

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We had a four year thread like this with Pogba which was ultimately proven right, and it's high time that this was said in the same direct manner.

Bruno Fernandes is a pseudo midfielder without any top level ability to play a short game. He has no ability to retain the ball under pressure and compensates for this by swinging the ball with his first touch (or falling over) if he receives the ball with an opponent on him. He gives us no real advantage on the ball with the exception of an ability to at times play some outrageous final passes. He cannot open up a game with a quick one-two, a dribble or a carry, so in real terms - he does not add as much creativity to the team as is made out, because the ability to step away from two players and then play in Sancho to get an assist is of greater value to the team as a whole than the assists he may get himself from swinging it in behind first time from deep.

We effectively need to rely on two midfielders to keep the ball rather than 3, which is fine against the few teams that are scared shitless of us, but there are not many of those any more. This is a part of why we cannot keep the ball at a top level. In order to be a 'possession team', you absolutely need players with courage on the ball. Courage is not 'trying a risky pass', but it is trusting yourself to take it and absolutely ensure that the next person that gets it is one of your teammates, regardless of pressure around you. Preferably at speed.

Bruno is good at a few things, but whatever they are, he is not good at being a midfielder in any fundamental sense of the word. Given that the act of scoring or creating a chance comes so infrequently for any player, he is too poor at anything else for us to have a top class midfield 3 with him in it. Similarly to Pogba - he's a cherry on top player. It's not as noticeable to many as it is with Pogba because the issue and complaint there was that he needed to be carried without the ball. With Bruno, it is more the opposite in that without the ball he will do his bit, but a top team needs to carry him with the ball, i.e - find a way of becoming a dominant possession team bizarrely without much contribution from it's #10, probably the player supposed to be most fundamental to it. I say we'd never win the league like this because simply, over 38 games, any sort of throwback football Bruno may excel in will almost certainly fall short. The only title winner he could have played for is Leicester's anomaly of 2016 - whose football he would have suited perfectly.

The quicker we accept that we cannot cheat the process by sticking a few goals in the side and instead need to establish foundations, the quicker we will be on our way. And the shrinking minority who seem to believe that this can happen with Bruno in the team need to wake up and see what has been staring them in the face. There is no 'Bruno hatred' not even any 'Bruno vs Pogba' anymore. This is just what it is.
 

Skills

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I tend to agree. Bruno Fernandes is a forward disguised as a midfielder.

I don't think teams can accommodate a player like that in football. In a top level, he's either developed into a false 9 type of striker or a creative midfielder out wide.

I don't think you can have him as part of your midfield 3 without it causing major issues to your structure or massively reducing his effectiveness in the final third.
 

harms

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I’d still wait until he plays a significant amount of games under an actually good manager before writing him off completely — at least he has work-rate & mentality, but at this point it doesn’t seem likely that we will win it with him, yeah.

Not that we are realistic candidates without him either though.
 

Marwood

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We had a four year thread like this with Pogba which was ultimately proven right, and it's high time that this was said in the same direct manner.

Bruno Fernandes is a pseudo midfielder without any top level ability to play a short game. He has no ability to retain the ball under pressure and compensates for this by swinging the ball with his first touch (or falling over) if he receives the ball with an opponent on him. He gives us no real advantage on the ball with the exception of an ability to at times play some outrageous final passes. He cannot open up a game with a quick one-two, a dribble or a carry, so in real terms - he does not add as much creativity to the team as is made out, because the ability to step away from two players and then play in Sancho to get an assist is of greater value to the team as a whole than the assists he may get himself from swinging it in behind first time from deep.

We effectively need to rely on two midfielders to keep the ball rather than 3, which is fine against the few teams that are scared shitless of us, but there are not many of those any more. This is a part of why we cannot keep the ball at a top level. In order to be a 'possession team', you absolutely need players with courage on the ball. Courage is not 'trying a risky pass', but it is trusting yourself to take it and absolutely ensure that the next person that gets it is one of your teammates, regardless of pressure around you. Preferably at speed.

Bruno is good at a few things, but whatever they are, he is not good at being a midfielder in any fundamental sense of the word. Given that the act of scoring or creating a chance comes so infrequently for any player, he is too poor at anything else for us to have a top class midfield 3 with him in it. Similarly to Pogba - he's a cherry on top player. It's not as noticeable to many as it is with Pogba because the issue and complaint there was that he needed to be carried without the ball. With Bruno, it is more the opposite in that without the ball he will do his bit, but a top team needs to carry him with the ball, i.e - find a way of becoming a dominant possession team bizarrely without much contribution from it's #10, probably the player supposed to be most fundamental to it. I say we'd never win the league like this because simply, over 38 games, any sort of throwback football Bruno may excel in will almost certainly fall short. The only title winner he could have played for is Leicester's anomaly of 2016 - whose football he would have suited perfectly.

The quicker we accept that we cannot cheat the process by sticking a few goals in the side and instead need to establish foundations, the quicker we will be on our way. And the shrinking minority who seem to believe that this can happen with Bruno in the team need to wake up and see what has been staring them in the face. There is no 'Bruno hatred' not even any 'Bruno vs Pogba' anymore. This is just what it is.
I mean you could have said "we'll never win a league with *pick any player in squad* over the last four years and then claim to be proven correct.

Not sure the logic is 100% there.

I also think you can win a league with Bruno. If Bruno was in City's team now they'd still win the league.

You just can't have Bruno and numerous other players who can't look after the ball.
 

tomaldinho1

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We’re still early days with ETH and I do think, actually, in previous games Bruno has shown signs of adapting his game. Let’s see how we look at the end of this season.

Just play him as a false 9
He’s not good enough for that role.
 

Rozay

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I mean you could have said "we'll never win a league with *pick any player in squad* over the last four years and then claim to be proven correct.

Not sure the logic is 100% there.

I also think you can win a league with Bruno. If Bruno was in City's team now they'd still win the league.

You just can't have Bruno and numerous other players who can't look after the ball.
I didn't imply any logic with that statement, I stated a fact and used it to introduce the premise of this thread. The logic behind my assertion is given in the subsequent paragraphs.

And Bruno would get nowhere near the City team, and if he did, they'd be a far worse team than they are. He belongs at a peak Leicester playing his one-two punch combo with Jamie Vardy.
 

stepic

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he definitely isn't a midfielder, that has been clear for some time. we haven't played a midfield 3 whilst he has been in the team.

playing him and Eriksen together compounds the problem, because Eriksen is attack minded and really is an AM.

playing the 2 of them away against City? well, we won't get into that.
 

Siorac

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We'll never win the league anyway.

He has no ability to retain the ball under pressure and compensates for this by swinging the ball with his first touch (or falling over) if he receives the ball with an opponent on him. He gives us no real advantage on the ball with the exception of an ability to at times play some outrageous final passes. He cannot open up a game with a quick one-two, a dribble or a carry, so in real terms - he does not add as much creativity to the team as is made out
But yes, unfortunately I have to agree with this. He can be absolutely brilliant when allowed sufficient space, particularly where we can break quickly but at all times he basically plays as a forward. A forward who isn't particularly quick or any good at dribbling past defenders.
We effectively need to rely on two midfielders to keep the ball rather than 3
And then we play McTominay so it's essentially just one.
 

Di Maria's angel

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Real shame if this turns out to be the case. He was sensational in his first season and a half.
 

TMDaines

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Just play him as a false 9
He's crap at virtually every aspect of performing this role and playing in this position. His best football has always been with him receiving possession with game in front of him, not behind him.
 

Marwood

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I didn't imply any logic with that statement, I stated a fact and used it to introduce the premise of this thread. The logic behind my assertion is given in the subsequent paragraphs.

And Bruno would get nowhere near the City team, and if he did, they'd be a far worse team than they are. He belongs at a peak Leicester playing his one-two punch combo with Jamie Vardy.
It just sounds like there's a cause and effect when you say we'll never win a league with a player.

Any United fan knows it's not one player stopping us.

You think City wouldn't win the league this year if they had Bruno in the team?
 

Idxomer

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We'll never come close to challenging for the league or even play progressive football consistently with him at the centre of the team.

The contract renewal was just peak stupidity from the United management.
 

TMDaines

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It just sounds like there's a cause and effect when you say we'll never win a league with a player.

Any United fan knows it's not one player stopping us.

You think City wouldn't win the league this year if they had Bruno in the team?
Bruno wouldn't play for them. He'd be moved on from the squad sharpish if inherited by Guardiola.
 

TMDaines

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Ok but if he was in the team, would it stop City winning the league this year?
I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make. Yes, City could carry Bruno to the league title in a hypothetical scenario where he is the weakest link/worst fit in their XI. United don't have that luxury.
 

Rozay

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It just sounds like there's a cause and effect when you say we'll never win a league with a player.

Any United fan knows it's not one player stopping us.

You think City wouldn't win the league this year if they had Bruno in the team?
City already have a title winning team. We are trying to build one, and we will not do that with Bruno in it. And we don't need to stop at the title, the same applies to the CL. The main point is, we will never be a team good enough to compete for major trophies. Liverpool coming second by a point or goal difference is obviously not what we are. They are/have been good enough to win the league or Champions League whether they actually go and win it or not. Just as City have been good enough to win both for 5 years, despite not always winning. Both Liverpool and City have had 'title winning teams' despite the fact that they can't both win it. If you like, 'we will never have a team capable of winning the title with Bruno', to avoid pedantry.
 

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His best form came during a 6-month spell of messy, unorthodox Ole-ball during COVID, where we won a feck tonne of penos. His deficiencies were clear even then, but his productivity gave him a free pass.
 

Pickle85

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It just sounds like there's a cause and effect when you say we'll never win a league with a player.

Any United fan knows it's not one player stopping us.

You think City wouldn't win the league this year if they had Bruno in the team?
This, basically. The reason we won't win the league any time soon is because we're currently miles off it, with or without Bruno. Hopefully ETH is changing that, but having Bruno in our side is a million miles from being the only thing stopping us.
 

Rozay

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Ok but if he was in the team, would it stop City winning the league this year?
If up against the Liverpool side of recent seasons, probably. It would make City weaker. In recent years, there has been feck all margin for them to be weaker. Even if just one point. It so happens that THIS particular season, Liverpool have fallen off. And even then, the answer may still be yes if it turns out that Arsenal mean what they say. Then yes, perhaps City being weaker than they are would cost them the league even this season.
 

Skills

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His best form came during a 6-month spell of messy, unorthodox Ole-ball during COVID, where we won a feck tonne of penos. His deficiencies were clear even then, but his productivity gave him a free pass.
He was also feeding a fairly lethal and inform front line of Martial, Greenwood and Rashford (well Rashford was out of form).

Christ, imagine if we actually had an actually talented manager back then.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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I mean you could have said "we'll never win a league with *pick any player in squad* over the last four years and then claim to be proven correct.

Not sure the logic is 100% there.

I also think you can win a league with Bruno. If Bruno was in City's team now they'd still win the league.

You just can't have Bruno and numerous other players who can't look after the ball.
No, they wouldn't if the plan was to make him their main man to operate between the lines, and then to run everything through him in the midfield. If we take a really close look, he's the antithesis of a Pep midfielder. He's a run n' gun type of player, when Guardiola's system is all about movement and ball circulation in order to create the high percentage chances (through balls and cut-backs/low crosses).

He's an attacking footballer in the body of a midfielder. We put two midfielders behind him, so that he can play as a #10, but he rarely occupies the spaces you'd expect from such a player. He's not there to connect the lines or to initiate plays and help us maintain possession. Instead, he just roams free and looks for the final ball, no matter improbable its success may be.

There's some truth in your first sentence. Another one is Rashford. A second striker kind of player, caught somewhere between a forward and a left-winger. It doesn't mean that these two are the only problem in the team. In fact, we'll have to make do for now because their replacements can only be found in the market. But if we want to move away from the low-block/counter-attacking football, we have to start considering our options.
 

Robbie Boy

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He was also feeding a fairly lethal and inform front line of Martial, Greenwood and Rashford (well Rashford was out of form).

Christ, imagine if we actually had an actually talented manager back then.
Yup, I remember that 6-month spell of pretty unsustainable football, but it threw up some fun games. It was messy af, but Bruno and the front 3 were good to watch.
 

Siorac

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This, basically. The reason we won't win the league any time soon is because we're currently miles off it, with or without Bruno. Hopefully ETH is changing that, but having Bruno in our side is a million miles from being the only thing stopping us.
He's obviously not the only problem but then no one suggests he is. Bruno as undisputed first choice no. 10, however, is a problem, a dilemma: we either have to build a superteam to carry his deficiencies, or we have to fashion the entire team and its style in a way to suit his strengths.

He isn't good enough to justify either of those options. And there's a very good chance that building the team around him - aka option 2 - would mean there's a hard limit to what we can achieve.
 

Rozay

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This, basically. The reason we won't win the league any time soon is because we're currently miles off it, with or without Bruno. Hopefully ETH is changing that, but having Bruno in our side is a million miles from being the only thing stopping us.
Some people do not get the point at all.

I'll try and clarify for yourself and Marwood. Bruno is not the only problem we have. But Bruno is such an antithesis of being able to play good football to the highest level that a team with him at the centre of it will almost certainly never be a top, top level side IMO. So yes, we are miles away. Even if we were as far away as being at zero with just a white board for ideas that says 'how to build a title winning team' - once you add Bruno, you are on the wrong track whoever you write after that. Unless your other 10 are such that they just need a body there, with the competition being nowhere near - then of course. I'm sure Bayern Munich could win the league with Bruno.
 

Physiocrat

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If we played 4411 with more orthodox wide men he could work quite well as the midfield would be more solid. Another option would be as a false 9 but that would probably mean dropping Sancho and playing Rashford left and Anthony right. Bruno hasn't shown much ability as a false 9 yet but with pacey wide men either side it could work.
 

mu4c_20le

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Some people do not get the point at all.

I'll try and clarify for yourself and Marwood. Bruno is not the only problem we have. But Bruno is such an antithesis of being able to play good football to the highest level that a team with him at the centre of it will almost certainly never be a top, top level side IMO. So yes, we are miles away. Even if we were as far away as being at zero with just a white board for ideas that says 'how to build a title winning team' - once you add Bruno, you are on the wrong track whoever you write after that. Unless your other 10 are such that they just need a body there, with the competition being nowhere near - then of course. I'm sure Bayern Munich could win the league with Bruno.
Okay, you hate Bruno, and made this thread because he deserves the same scrutiny as Pogba once did. He has a much better attitude and work rate though, why not try to utilize his strengths? Isn't that what good coaches do?
 

Pickle85

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He's obviously not the only problem but then no one suggests he is. Bruno as undisputed first choice no. 10, however, is a problem, a dilemma: we either have to build a superteam to carry his deficiencies, or we have to fashion the entire team and its style in a way to suit his strengths.

He isn't good enough to justify either of those options. And there's a very good chance that building the team around him - aka option 2 - would mean there's a hard limit to what we can achieve.
Some people do not get the point at all.

I'll try and clarify for yourself and Marwood. Bruno is not the only problem we have. But Bruno is such an antithesis of being able to play good football to the highest level that a team with him at the centre of it will almost certainly never be a top, top level side IMO. So yes, we are miles away. Even if we were as far away as being at zero with just a white board for ideas that says 'how to build a title winning team' - once you add Bruno, you are on the wrong track whoever you write after that. Unless your other 10 are such that they just need a body there, with the competition being nowhere near - then of course. I'm sure Bayern Munich could win the league with Bruno.
We haven't really seen him in a functional system yet and I disagree that with more direction and coherent coaching he can't improve in areas he needs to. I totally agree that when he's not at it he's wasteful and can be a bit of a liability, but I disagree that a team with Bruno couldn't win the league.
 

Lyng

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I think thats a massive overreaction. Yes he was woeful yesterday and he is usually not good in the biggest games, but he can still be a very useful squad player, precisely because he has this moments where he creates something out of nothing.
The issue is him being used to much. He should be a backup for Eriksen at 10 and not a main starter every match.
 

Rozay

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Okay, you hate Bruno, and made this thread because he deserves the same scrutiny as Pogba once did. He has a much better attitude and work rate though, why not try to utilize his strengths? Isn't that what good coaches do?
You've got me.
 

Marwood

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I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make. Yes, City could carry Bruno to the league title in a hypothetical scenario where he is the weakest link/worst fit in their XI. United don't have that luxury.
The entire point of the thread.

The argument is we'll never win a league with Bruno. Clearly not true if Bruno was in a very high quality team. As confirmed by yourself.

I don't think in this hypothetical scenario City would "carry" Bruno to a title either. That makes him sound like a conference plater.
 

NewGlory

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Most ridiculous thread in recent history of this forum. Everybody played badly yesterday and so did Bruno but to single him out as the reason we won't win something… Come the feck on

Also, it doesn't matter what you think. If we win something it will be because we have EtH. If he is supported we will win something, what we win - depends on opponents, as well, not just us. Who plays and who is an impediment for us will be determined by EtH, not some posters on some forum with vivid imagination.
 
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