We will never win the league with Paul Pogba in the team

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I think we can all agree that Pogba had a horrible game. But you need to change the title of the thread to "we will never win the league with a 2 man midfield"

It's not Pogba's fault if he is being asked to do a job that is not part of his skillset. Remember that in Juventus he played in a 3 man midfield.

I would blame the manager for thinking that Pogba and Matic are enough against good opposition.
 
Pogba was a youngster at this time.
As was Scholes when he debuted and started to play regularly. And Giggs, and Becks and many others. Clearly that was not a problem.
Fergie believed in his talent but he thought he's still not ready to play in the starting 11 while Pogba though he can, so he decided to leave. What you have posted makes it as if Fergie Pogba is talent but will never be good enough for a title winning team so decided to let him, complete nonsense.
"Good enough" is a too general term. I explained what i meant precisely. Just re-read the post. I've written that Pogba had all the football talent to be good enough, but lacked in a mental (or a character) side of things.
The way SAF spoke about Pogba, his dealings with agent and stuff it's quite clear for me, that while appreciating his strictly football qualities, to put it bluntly, SAF was convinced that Pogba got turned around by money or will get turned around by it, thus he did not trust him to be in match squad.
He had major problems at CM back there if you would remember, so major that Fergie even asked Scholsey out of retirement. So clearly we needed player in that area. And Pogba started at Jve next year like it was nothing. Surely he was ready and surely Fergie would have seen that. The other question however is if Fergie believed in would be beneficial for the club or even for the player himself in the long-term.
 
As was Scholes when he debuted and started to play regularly. And Giggs, and Becks and many others. Clearly that was not a problem.
"Good enough" is a too general term. I explained what i meant precisely. Just re-read the post. I've written that Pogba had all the football talent to be good enough, but lacked in a mental (or a character) side of things.
The way SAF spoke about Pogba, his dealings with agent and stuff it's quite clear for me, that while appreciating his strictly football qualities, to put it bluntly, SAF was convinced that Pogba got turned around by money or will get turned around by it, thus he did not trust him to be in match squad.
He had major problems at CM back there if you would remember, so major that Fergie even asked Scholsey out of retirement. So clearly we needed player in that area. And Pogba started at Jve next year like it was nothing. Surely he was ready and surely Fergie would have seen that. The other question however is if Fergie believed in would be beneficial for the club or even for the player himself in the long-term.

You're free to have your opinion as you want even if it was illogical for me, I don't care and I'm not up to discuss it, but don't claim things about Fergie as they were facts while the opposite completely happened.

Enjoy :

http://www.espn.com/soccer/league-name/story/2060596/headline
 
Exactly proves my point. Fergie believed he will be a good player, but did not believe he has mental capability to play in the team back then, feared it will do him and the team more harm. He though that tough love approach would do him more good as it will built up a character.
 
Exactly proves my point. Fergie believed he will be a good player, but did not believe he has mental capability to play in the team back then, feared it will do him and the team more harm. He though that tough love approach would do him more good as it will built up a character.

:lol:

Is that what you get from what Evra has said ?

Ok. You know what Fergie thinks better than Evra and Fergie himself.
 
You are judging him based on one bad game. He is our best player ffs.

Which one game would this be? He's exactly the same whenever we play a decent team.

If Spurs was a one off, that's one thing, but it's the standard Paul Pogba performance. If he can't ponce about showing off he just isn''t interested in doing anything.

People will get defensive with a talented player but his attitude really is just amazingly bad. Even in games where he plays well he just shirks his responsibility to the team. Stoke the other week he got man of the match, but he was just as responsible for Stoke's best chances in the game as he was United's, and if it hadn't been for two of his team mates scoring wonder goals that might have ended up not looking so great on his part.
 
Simple; play him in a 3 in midfield in the big games and you can well win the league

Does it suddenly become less impotant that he works hard if he's in a three man midfield? What if all three of the midfielders decided to play wth the attitude of Paul Pogba?

If you were playing someone decent you'd get absolutely spanked.

If he was banging in 50 goals a year or winning us games on his own, the silly defence of him would make sense, but he doesn't do these things. He hasn't earned any kind of licence at all to not be working as hard as his team mates.
 
And what did you get? What is "your" reason for Fergie not playing him?

Again ? I said he was a youngster at this time and SAF probably thought he's not ready yet to play as a starter while Pogba thought the opposite that he's ready to start and Raiola helped him believe though. SAF wanted him to stay because he knew how talented and strong he's, even sending Evra to convince him to stay, but Pogba was so reliant to move to play regularly and SAF didn't want to force someone to stay against his well and he was angry of the way Raiola was dealing with the case. He has never doubted Pogba's talent or mentality, so stop with this nonsense please. You have zero proof of your claims unless you sit down with Fergie earlier and told you that.
 
Juve won several leagues with him played in his proper position, he works hard enough, he's fine when his task is to press higher up the pitch, not when tasked with being in a double pivot as he's positionally poor, but yes, we can easily win the league with him deployed in a properly constructed midfield, and he'll be a key reason.

We played him there in big games last season and he was awful. Losig 4-0 to Chelsea was a particular high point of that experiment. His performance then was no better than it was yesterday.
 
Nah the problem is how he is seen and how he sees himself. He isn't a central midfielder. I see him as the same type of player as Coutinho, de bruyne, silva, iniesta, eriksen, etc.. You would never play any of those as part of a midfield 2 especially not in a 4-2-3-1. You want them to work hard defensively of course, but positionally they are clueless if asked to play that role. Pogba thinks of himself as a central midfielder like Modric or Kroos or something, but that's not the case at all. He's awful at playing as a proper central midfielder. In fact he's awful at anything involving playing in our own half. He's an attacking midfielder and can be a terrific one, but has a lot to improve.

Of course, the next issue is how good he thinks he is compared to the reality as you say. He has loads of talent but some awful decision making and looks for the headlines instead of the best option. Shit like away to Burnley or leicester when we have so many counter attacks that he leads and he either chooses to go alone, needing to dribble past someone once just to show off, or be the decisive pass instead of just playing the correct early, easy pass which doesn't get the glamour but is the best for the team. That decision making needs to improve for him to take the step up, but not only that, but how he sees himself as I said. Til then, we'll see shit like this against any decent opposition.

Those players alll work hard and are very clever positionally and also rarely if ever wasteful with the ball.

Pogba sometimes literally can't be bothered to move, positionally is the worst player we have and regularly does things like have a 30 yard shot when there's team mates through on goal either side of him.

I don't see how any of this translates to being a good no10. When do you ever see any of the players you have mentioned doing any of this? THey are good in that position because they understand the role in relation to their team and team mates and the need to not be wasteful or lazy for the pusposes of being selfish. Pogba has not only never shown these qualities, but has an almost strangely impressive determination not to show them.

And again, we HAVE tried him in this role. We had to stop playing him there because it was one awful performance after another from him.
 
Mourinho is going to be after you in next interview Noodle.. have to admit if you agree or not with him. It's courageous and I don't think you're being knee jerk.. It's a valid enough opinion. Hope you are wrong though and that in a midfield three he does become the player we want him to be.
 
I said he was a youngster at this time and SAF probably thought he's not ready yet to play
Why?
You do understand that this "SAF thought he's not ready yet to play" is exactly what i am saying. You just saying that Fergie had unspecified reasons. And i am saying, that Fergie thought he was not ready mentally.
 
Why?
You do understand that this "SAF thought he's not ready yet to play" is exactly what i am saying. You just saying that Fergie had unspecified reasons. And i am saying, that Fergie thought he was not ready mentally.

Bring a proof on your claim that Fergie doubted his mentality. I brought mine, now waiting for yours..
 
Those players alll work hard and are very clever positionally and also rarely if ever wasteful with the ball.

Pogba sometimes literally can't be bothered to move, positionally is the worst player we have and regularly does things like have a 30 yard shot when there's team mates through on goal either side of him.

I don't see how any of this translates to being a good no10. When do you ever see any of the players you have mentioned doing any of this? THey are good in that position because they understand the role in relation to their team and team mates and the need to not be wasteful or lazy for the pusposes of being selfish.
He's not a 10 either, it's a different ask altogether for a player playing as a 10 like Ozil usually does, and then playing as the creative, attacking mid in a normal 3 man midfield. Pogba with his set of skills is pretty much suited to that and will be inconsistent as feck in everything else.

And I agree completely. He's a mess positionally, his decision making is shit often as a central midfielder, his defensive positioning is awful. Yesterday in particular is bad. Think it's harsh to say he can't be bothered to move, as I think he does do defensive work, but he just isn't very good at it, especially being awful positionally speaking. Put De Bruyne there and we'd look equally unbalanced. De Bruyne is a much more mature player that makes better decisions on the ball, so we would improve somewhat in that aspect, but the point remains. Pogba is being used incorrectly. I'm not absolving him of blame or anything either - he thinks he is way more then what he is and far too often looks to be the one that will get headlines, either by shooting when there are better positioned players or trying too hard for the killer pass or to dribble past one more player instead of just picking the easy pass. That's where he has to mature as a player and improve. Playing as part of a 3 regularly will get the best out of his qualities consistently and it hides what he lacks as a player, since he'll have more freedom to attack and roam. Also will probably calm him down since he'll be more focused on one thing instead of him right now obviously not knowing what he's supposed to do and then him being the type that will feel he has to make up for a mistake by doing something instead of playing normally. That's where his immaturity comes in and that needs to change, but I think/hope it will with a more settled role and being used in his best position (like how he was against Everton). Like I said, that's a huge difference to when we put him as the 10 in a 4-2-3-1 where he's almost a 2nd striker.
 
Mourinho is going to be after you in next interview Noodle.. have to admit if you agree or not with him. It's courageous and I don't think you're being knee jerk.. It's a valid enough opinion. Hope you are wrong though and that in a midfield three he does become the player we want him to be.

If he was a youngster I would say give him time...but he's had years of experience now, yet still behaves like an idiot on the pitch. Learns nothing from mistakes, has no appreciation of team mates or his role as part of the team.

Are people denying this is the case? Do people think he plays well in these games? (and when I say these games, I mean generally, most games...he shows up about once a month, usually against the worst team we play that month)

When are people actually expecting him to change? Why woulld playing him in a sllightly different position make a difference to problems with his performances which are fundamental to every position on the pitch?

I just think people don't like to admit he's a fraud. Fans of other teams see him as a bit of a joke...it's not that they're jealous of him, they just watch him in these games and think it's funny how bad he is for someone who strives to draw attention to themself. It's not really defendable anymore because all he does is repeatedly prove them right.
 
As was Scholes when he debuted and started to play regularly. And Giggs, and Becks and many others. Clearly that was not a problem.

Scholes had played 2 games for United before he turned 20. Pogba had played 7 when he decided to leave at 19.
 
He's not a 10 either, it's a different ask altogether for a player playing as a 10 like Ozil usually does, and then playing as the creative, attacking mid in a normal 3 man midfield. Pogba with his set of skills is pretty much suited to that and will be inconsistent as feck in everything else.

And I agree completely. He's a mess positionally, his decision making is shit often as a central midfielder, his defensive positioning is awful. Yesterday in particular is bad. Think it's harsh to say he can't be bothered to move, as I think he does do defensive work, but he just isn't very good at it, especially being awful positionally speaking. Put De Bruyne there and we'd look equally unbalanced. De Bruyne is a much more mature player that makes better decisions on the ball, so we would improve somewhat in that aspect, but the point remains. Pogba is being used incorrectly. I'm not absolving him of blame or anything either - he thinks he is way more then what he is and far too often looks to be the one that will get headlines, either by shooting when there are better positioned players or trying too hard for the killer pass or to dribble past one more player instead of just picking the easy pass. That's where he has to mature as a player and improve. Playing as part of a 3 regularly will get the best out of his qualities consistently and it hides what he lacks as a player, since he'll have more freedom to attack and roam. Also will probably calm him down since he'll be more focused on one thing instead of him right now obviously not knowing what he's supposed to do and then him being the type that will feel he has to make up for a mistake by doing something instead of playing normally. That's where his immaturity comes in and that needs to change, but I think/hope it will with a more settled role and being used in his best position (like how he was against Everton). Like I said, that's a huge difference to when we put him as the 10 in a 4-2-3-1 where he's almost a 2nd striker.

But agaiin even in that role, decision making, picking the right pass, working hard for the team etc. are all fundamentally important. Pogba simply does not do these things. He would rather try and showboat through three defenders than play a simple pass to a wide open team mate. Then when he loses the ball trying to do this he will simply stand there and expect someone else to sort it out for him. There is no position or role in a team where this is not a problem.

I don't think anything is soled by giving him a different role. You put someone else in central midfield, you have better discipline in terms of defennsive positioning, and use of the ball in that area, but then you have Pogba playing instead of one of Lingard, Mata, Sanchez, Martial, etc...so instead of a player who will put in work for the team, you have Pogba, dicking about and wanting to show off. You mmight get away with it at home to Swansea...next time you play a Chelsea, Spurs, City etc...it will still be a massive fecking problem...a bigger problem for his team mates than it willl be for the opposition...and at the end of the day, you can probably beat Swansea at home without Pogba's dicking about actually coming off a few times anyway.
 
Bring a proof on your claim that Fergie doubted his mentality. I brought mine, now waiting for yours..
What proof was that? I've asked you what exact reason Fergie had for not playing him and you did not answer, you just said that he did not felt it right. So if it's not mental what else could it be exactly?

As for proof, please read SAF's exact words:
"It is disappointing. I don't think he showed us any respect at all so, to be honest. I'm quite happy that if they (he means Pog and the agent) carry on that way, they're probably better doing it away from us."
 
Scholes had played 2 games for United before he turned 20. Pogba had played 7 when he decided to leave at 19.
Giggs then. I am sure they are dozen players who played regularly in SAF team when they were not even 20.
 
Think history's being rewritten here. His decision making has mostly been fine this season. That one time he shot instead of passing to Lukaku against Burnley seems to have clouded people's judgement.
 
Pogba's a good player - but his exhibitionism and extravagance can only be of be of benefit to us if he creates a lot of opportunities for our strikers and shows goalscoring ability.

He can obviously do the former - but the latter has been a huge disappointment.

So far.

But I think the bigger question is for Jose Mourinho, who is still wrestling with Manchester United's attacking heritage.

He hasn't quite come to terms with it. Some of our away performances - so open - have been startling.

And then there's Anfield, which was precisely the other way.

Until he comes to terms with that big red beast, the elegant, swaggering beast in the middle won't matter a jot.
 
What proof was that? I've asked you what exact reason Fergie had for not playing him and you did not answer, you just said that he did not felt it right. So if it's not mental what else could it be exactly?

As for proof, please read SAF's exact words:
"It is disappointing. I don't think he showed us any respect at all so, to be honest. I'm quite happy that if they (he means Pog and the agent) carry on that way, they're probably better doing it away from us."

He was furious with the way Raiola handled the deal but that quote never means he thought he lacks mentality or anything of this nonsense.

Alright we got it. You have no proof at all that. You just stated your opinion as a fact that SAF knew it all along, that Pogba's mentality isn't into the game and went on to base your full post on it as it's already a fact. When I brought you a proof that SAF tried to keep Pogba in the team you have no more response. Ok.
 
We played him there in big games last season and he was awful. Losig 4-0 to Chelsea was a particular high point of that experiment. His performance then was no better than it was yesterday.

The defense killed us off before we even got started in that game, and he was partnered with Herrera and Fellaini, no actual holding midfielder. Top sides play players in their correct positions week in and week out, we are always shifting and are still playing players out of position regularly, the fact Jose has had 4 transfer windows and still hasn't put the correct midfield pieces together is on him, it's not rocket science but apparently Jose never watched a Juve game and saw how to utilize Pogba correctly. We saw against Arsenal and Everton away what Pogba can do when given the freedom to play his game, the fact we were also dogshit when he was out also illustrates how silly this thread is, the problem is we rely way too much on him and have way too many mediocre CM's in there that don't take up any of the responsibility if he is out or yes, having a bad game.
 
How did Juve win their league and get to a CL final with him being a big part of the team? I've said for ages he's been a constant disappointment in big games (bar Arsenal this year) but he can play a pivotal role in us winning the league again. We just need to sort a system out, and hopefully, because we're stuck with him for the foreseeable, José does this.
 
Think history's being rewritten here. His decision making has mostly been fine this season. That one time he shot instead of passing to Lukaku against Burnley seems to have clouded people's judgement.

That's not true though is it?

That incident against Burnley wasn't even the only time he's done that exact thing this season. He even thought it was ok to do it when we were 2-1 to Real Madrid. He takes shots on in the most ridiculous of circumstances, he takes defenders on in situations where it's not even necessary. It's a common theme. Even in the Stoke game recently where he played well, he was constantly at it. It even resulted in two of Stoke's best chances.

Every now and then he seems to get it together for a game or two and looks like the player he should do by now, but it never lasts long before he reverts back to type. The top players have it together evey time they step on the pitch, even when they have an off day, because the desire to win over rides any desire to look cool in some Youtube videos (or whatever it is that Pogba's aim seems to be). Pogba just doesn't have it. He's 24, one or two laugh at that but he does not play like a 24 year old who is destined to be a winner. He plays like a 24 year old who thinks they have nothing left to prove to anyone.
 
Yes, absolutely, you should terminate his contract right now :D



-in all honesty, i think he might not be ready to be the leader of the team at a club like yours. At juventus he had other, better players around him, and when he didn't he struggled until khedira and marchisio(two leaders) came back from injuries and Dybala went off and took the spotlight from him-
 
The defense killed us off before we even got started in that game, and he was partnered with Herrera and Fellaini, no actual holding midfielder

He started in a 3 alongside Carrick and Herrera against Liverpool at home last season and was the worst player on the pitch until Carrick was taken off at halftime and he went back to a 2 with Herrera, after which he improved slightly.
 
He started in a 3 alongside Carrick and Herrera against Liverpool at home last season and was the worst player on the pitch until Carrick was taken off at halftime and he went back to a 2 with Herrera, after which he improved slightly.

Yes, he was much too hyper going into that game and played very poorly, but this is a silly witchunt, just look at how bad we are without him, he's the least of this teams issues, he also isn't that old, despite his fame he's still a young player being asked to carry a team way too often, rather than perform as part of a well structured unit with more experienced top players leading the way, he doesn't even play his position every week, he keeps getting moved around because the manager has no set way of playing and has not instilled any identity into this team. If we get the right midfield components in and comit to a formation with Pogba playing in his natural role week in and week out, this thread will look very daft.
 
:lol: fecking VVD was sold for 75 Million and you think no one bids more than 70 Million for Pogba?

One bad game and everyone who are waiting from last 6-7 months are back.

What does Pogba brings to the team? Not sure that's a serious question.

Obviously in the post neymar area he d be worth it. But he wasn t when we bought him. 89 mils was the world record transfer at the time, and in hindsight, he wasn t worth it then. Even in this crazy market, 2 seasons later, he wouldnt fetch more than 100.
 
Yes, he was much too hyper going into that game and played very poorly, but this is a silly witchunt, just look at how bad we are without him, he's the least of this teams issues, he also isn't that old, despite his fame he's still a young player being asked to carry a team way too often, rather than perform as part of a well structured unit with more experienced top players leading the way, he doesn't even play his position every week, he keeps getting moved around because the manager has no set way of playing and has not instilled any identity into this team. If we get the right midfield components in and comit to a formation with Pogba playing in his natural role week in and week out, this thread will look very daft.
He iS a young player, a player with the mental age of a 15 year old, not a man of 25. And that is where the problem lies. No one doubts his technical skills or his physical attributes, but its how he uses them , or not, that is the problem. Too many times he is on 'planet Pogba' playing for and with himself. He finds it difficult to use his skills when pressed by an opponent who doesn't stand off , and when he meets a comparably skilled but one with far more 'nous' , he is unable to compete, after some time he abdicates all responsibilities and goes missing.
He is a luxury player that may be OK in a fully formed team with confident and skilled players of experience. Which is why he looked at at Juve in a very different league. At this stage of United's redevelopment in the English league , he could prosper only at City, but even there its unlikely he could displace their comparable players who are 'team' players not skilled individuals. This has nothing to do with Pep's management, simply City are at a different stage with their team.
United should cash in , with Madrid desperate to attract some 'names'. United could make £50m profit this summer and spend on two experienced MEN, who play central midfield which would release the attackers in the same way Spurs' front 4 were allowed to play. It is also important united get some balance up front with a decent RW.
 
Lots of people assume he didn't listen to what Jose said during the Spurs game that's why he was subbed. Could be a problem between the two on the horizon.
 
Lots of people assume he didn't listen to what Jose said during the Spurs game that's why he was subbed. Could be a problem between the two on the horizon.
Well if people assume and they know for sure.
Yeah it's a big, big problem.

Or maybe it's made up. Who knows.
 
That's not true though is it?

That incident against Burnley wasn't even the only time he's done that exact thing this season. He even thought it was ok to do it when we were 2-1 to Real Madrid. He takes shots on in the most ridiculous of circumstances, he takes defenders on in situations where it's not even necessary. It's a common theme. Even in the Stoke game recently where he played well, he was constantly at it. It even resulted in two of Stoke's best chances.

Every now and then he seems to get it together for a game or two and looks like the player he should do by now, but it never lasts long before he reverts back to type. The top players have it together evey time they step on the pitch, even when they have an off day, because the desire to win over rides any desire to look cool in some Youtube videos (or whatever it is that Pogba's aim seems to be). Pogba just doesn't have it. He's 24, one or two laugh at that but he does not play like a 24 year old who is destined to be a winner. He plays like a 24 year old who thinks they have nothing left to prove to anyone.
So you're saying we should sell the guy?
 
he was much too hyper going into that game

he's still a young player being asked to carry a team way too often

This is pretty much exactly the problem with him though, it's not really to do with his position, although like all players I'm sure he has a position that is optimal for him - it's that he's too immature to do the role that's being asked of him here. He doesn't have Pirlo and Vidal beside him here, the idea was that he would grow into a leadership role along those lines for us but 18 months in we've seen no indication that he'll ever become that type of player.
 
Pogba has some of the best passing vission and range but his control and dribbling has let him down on several occasions. Spurs were wating for him to bring the ball down and picking it off him easily.
 
The idea some people have of playing him further forward because he doesn't work hard enough to play in central midfield is a nonsense...as if playing him in another position somehow makes it less important that he works hard. In a succesful team, every player works harder than Paul Pogba ever does.

Working hard has never been a necessity for a good footballer.

Savicevic came 2nd in Balon d'Or whilst being deemed a luxury player at Milan. Gunter Netzer one of the best midfielders in the world once said "I understand that I must run, but I do so reluctantly, at least, without the ball".

Rather than complaining about them being lazy, it's time the manager utilized their attributes better.


Box-to-Box is a very broad bucket. Pogba is as different as you can get from Keane despite them both being B2B. We should put him in a position and if needed surround him with water carriers (Gattuso for Pirlo, Wimmer for Netzer etc) and get the best out of him.
 
He was furious with the way Raiola handled the deal
If that was true, he would not have said "they". He clearly thought Pogba was foolish to get involved with this agent and this association meant that Pogba was less interested in football itself and more interested in sponsors, the stuff. Well at least for somebody so young.
Alright we got it. You have no proof at all that. You just stated your opinion as a fact that SAF knew it all along, that Pogba's mentality isn't into the game and went on to base your full post on it as it's already a fact. When I brought you a proof that SAF tried to keep Pogba in the team you have no more response. Ok.
el3mel, just re-read my first post. Here is the relevant bit:
I actually afraid that Fergie called it right on some level. And that while being incredibly talented and gifted, Pogba just has this daunting personality, the kind that will never allow him to be leader in the team and produce greatest performances when it would matter most...

I don't why you decided that this means Fergie wanted him to leave. You argue and base all of your so-called proof on the fact that Fergie wanted to keep him. But i've never said or implied that Fergie wanted him to leave. What i meant was that Fergie did not trust that Pogba focus was on football, he did not trust him to be part of the team, not because he was short in football abilities, we desperately needed CM back then, but because he would be a bad influence. That is why he talk about respect and "away from us" stuff. And that is why he asked Scholes out of retirement instead of using Pogba. Because he feared for our title challenge.
For all your proof, you could not even write what possible other reason (other than character one) SAF may had to not use Pogba almost at all, given that he brought Scholes back and even used Rafael in central midfield.
 
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