Were LVG and Jose both past their prime? Or does the rot go deeper?

[Rozay]

and almost relegated Chelsea 6 months before but everyone chose to forget that

Just as it has taken 5 games to forget he led us to a second place finish last season.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

If he gave him a good amount of money and (probably most importantly) a clear plan for the future which includes our board willing to give him time and invest into the team then he would most likely move here. It could be difficult in the middle of the season but we could keep Carrick until May and then sign with Poch.

There’s no question of appointing Carrick as caretaker manager for 7 months.Its an unacceptable proposition...If we sack Mourinho we will appoint an experienced pro to keep the ship steady till the end of the season.We will do what Chelsea did by bringing in Guus Hiddink/Rafael Benitez until the end of the season....Many experienced managers would love to manage United,even if it’s for just 6-7 months.Theres no question of leaving the squad with Carrick for 7 months...

 

[Kent Devil]

To be honest I just think LVG was not the right manager for United as was United was not the right club for LVG. Now Mourinho that is a whole different situation altogether and I will not go into it as I will just go on a rant so I will spare you guys from that.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Yup, as much as I dislike the bald cnut, we should've done everything to get Guardiola in or somebody from the Ajax school of football. Or just never have hired LVG in the first place.

Mourinho, in hindsight, was a perfect pick for our players too. He comes in with the '3rd season' bullshit reputation so anything happens this season, it's on Mourinho and his 3rd season syndrome. Our players know it and they'll do it.

SAF personally requested Guardiola to inform him before joining a new club in 2012...But Guardiola went ahead and signed for a Bayern.Guardiolas very shrewd,he probably looked at our club from top to bottom and came to the conclusion that he didn’t fancy coming here.Guardiola was never attainable because of the structure of the club under SAF....But Klopp was attainable but we chose to stick with LVG for a 2nd season...

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Moyes - been crap everywhere since he got sacked here.

LVG - Where is he managing now?

I think it’s safe to say we have just made crap appointments.

LVG made it clear that United was going to be his last job in football...

 

[In Rainbows]

There is no mysterious force that is causing United to play badly. That's down to the managers. Woodward and the board's fault is that they have no vision for what they want out of the United manager and so that leads to picking the wrong managers. So both the managers and Woodward/the board are at fault for this mess we're in.

The whole some mysterious force that is causing United to play badly makes no sense. At the very least, we haven't even had every type of manager to where you can even come up with that conclusion. Moyes, LVG, and Mourinho were all risk-averse. The latter two cases all failed to get United's attack to perform with the certain amount of freedom and instruction that a lot of managers have these days, just with two different approaches.

The fact that I can point to a commonality among our managers means that there is no reason to assume the next manager won't get United back to the top. It might just mean that Woodward and the board get lucky in that hire's success, which could be troublesome when that manager is gone.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

A lot of people, even those that didn't like Jose, admitted that if Jose can't squeeze at least one title out of us then nobody will. That's obviously forgotten now and a lot of revision of opinion has taken place. But I still think it was a fair assessment at the time. So where does it leave us now? Plunging into the abyss basically.

I don't buy for one second that Jose is a dinosaur or anything like that. Maybe he's not attack minded, but this guy has always known how to set up a team. The problem is he's never even managed to get this team functioning like the efficient Mourinho machine. That's why people have to consider that there are other issues, as well as the manager. It doesn't have to be one or the other, but there's no manager that comes in and fixes us without an element of rebuilding imo.

This.Theres a lot of revisionism going on here...LVG looked like an excellent choice in 2014,especially after what he did at the WC.Mourinho looked like the perfect fit in 2016...We were absolutely convinced that he would win us the league atleast once...

 

[FootyGirl88]

I think recruitment is the biggest issue - since SAF retired look how many good players we've missed out on that were available.

Kroos
Thiago
KDB
Kane
Eriksen
VVD
Mane
Robertson

These are just a few..

 

[glazed]

This.Theres a lot of revisionism going on here...LVG looked like an excellent choice in 2014,especially after what he did at the WC.Mourinho looked like the perfect fit in 2016...We were absolutely convinced that he would win us the league atleast once...

He would have done but for a freakish City season. Unlucky in many ways.

Be that as it may, that was as good as he gets. Now it's just a question of how far downhill we go before making the switch we all know is coming. Do we save a few quid and wait till the end of the season or do it now?

 

[glazed]

LVG made it clear that United was going to be his last job in football...

Arguably the one before was.

 

[Hound Dog]

Why?Why do you think that whoever is brought in will also fail?

As I said, when looking at the previous pattern of Mourinho's career, it could have been expected for him to deliver some success and then combust in his third season. Only the latter of these things has happened.

I think that people overrate the importance of managers. Of course, they are very very important, but they cannot deliver on their own and it is often a case of being in the right place at the right time. I can name a long list of average managers who have won the biggest trophies (Rijkaard, Di Matteo, Luis Enrique... I also still think that Guardiola is a fraud but this is for another thread).

I feel that there is too much deadwood in the United squad and that the club need to either give the manager full control when it comes to transfer or to name a DOF capable of making good footballing decision. Neither of these things has been done, resulting in the squad being an expensive mess.

 

[Konimey]

Glazers are just businessmen who don't know shite about the game(bet they cal it soccer and refer to United as their soccer club), but as any shrewd businessmen they know that they will have to invest money for the club to be a success and money they have invested. They are not the main rot of the club, its Woodward, the man is an accountant/salesman ffs, there are fans who know and understand about football more than him and can run this club better than him. He doesn't understand the game and the transfer market yet he is incharge of running one of the biggest club in the world how is that even allowed? He is doing well in the commercial side of the club but in the main area which matters, the footballing part, he just is incompetent. The appointment of a DOF is a must, even more important than sacking Jose or selling Pogba. Just doing that would solve 50% to 60 % of United's woes, and the DOf will inturn take care of the rest and keep Woodward miles away from the footballing aspect of United.

 

[Amir]

He would have done but for a freakish City season. Unlucky in many ways.

Be that as it may, that was as good as he gets. Now it's just a question of how far downhill we go before making the switch we all know is coming. Do we save a few quid and wait till the end of the season or do it now?

We can save even more money by keeping him around till the end of his contract!

 

[Amir]

I think recruitment is the biggest issue - since SAF retired look how many good players we've missed out on that were available.

Kroos
Thiago
KDB
Kane
Eriksen
VVD
Mane
Robertson

These are just a few..

While we might have missed out here and there, we've also made some good signings. Problem is players we get tend to disappear into this big black hole once they reach Old Trafford.

Buying better would not have helped much if we can't get enough out of these players.

 

[noodlehair]

Van Gaal was just an egotistical lunatic who thought he was a lot smarter than he was, while Mourinho has become too negative and stubborn. Neither particularly displayed traits here that weren't evident in their previous more recent managerial roles.

The rot does go deeper but I didn't think that was up for debate anymore?

Surely no one looks at what's going on at this point and thinks "this is all Jose, Van Gaal and Moyes's fault"

Even if you do think that it raises the question of why the club keeps appointing people to manage it badly

 

[ayushreddevil9]

I don't understand why people claim Mourinho was a bad appointment. Who could we have appointed instead of him at that time?

 

[Moriarty]

Glazers are just businessmen who don't know shite about the game(bet they cal it soccer and refer to United as their soccer club), but as any shrewd businessmen they know that they will have to invest money for the club to be a success and money they have invested. They are not the main rot of the club, its Woodward, the man is an accountant/salesman ffs, there are fans who know and understand about football more than him and can run this club better than him. He doesn't understand the game and the transfer market yet he is incharge of running one of the biggest club in the world how is that even allowed? He is doing well in the commercial side of the club but in the main area which matters, the footballing part, he just is incompetent. The appointment of a DOF is a must, even more important than sacking Jose or selling Pogba. Just doing that would solve 50% to 60 % of United's woes, and the DOf will inturn take care of the rest and keep Woodward miles away from the footballing aspect of United.

Seriously? In the last 9 years, United have brought in £1.6 billion in cash. Some £600 million has been spent on players and about £90 million on infrastructure Over three quarters of a billion has been used to finance Glazers’ investment which breaks down to over £460 million in interest payments, about £250 million in principal debt repayments and £75 million in dividends. Any you say they are not the main rot?

 

[Konimey]

Seriously? In the last 9 years, United have brought in £1.6 billion in cash. Some £600 million has been spent on players and about £90 million on infrastructure Over three quarters of a billion has been used to finance Glazers’ investment which breaks down to over £460 million in interest payments, about £250 million in principal debt repayments and £75 million in dividends. Any you say they are not the main rot?

Yes they are not the main rot, they are a part of it. 600 million is more than enough to buy a good number of players to win the league, we also foot the highest wage bill. What do you want to do? Spend ever penny earned on buying players left right and center. Barring Toby, every United manager have got all the players they have asked for and players that United have missed is due to the incompetence of Woodward. The Glazers are the owners but they left the running of the club to Woodward, he is the man they listen to. If United appoint a DOF they won't listen to Woody for the footballing aspect of the game. Yes they are pocketing money, because they are businessmen and United is a cash cow for them, and any good businessmen will not want to see their cash cow drop in value. Do you think that United are playing badly because they pocket profits? Don't be so thick.

 

[Fitchett]

As a club we’ve been successful under a grand total of TWO managers in our illustrious history. We should know better than anyone that it’s possible to make multiple bad managerial appointments in a row. Not sure why people are always looking for some kind of deeper meaning than this, talking about “something being wrong with the club” like if there’s some kind of poison that infects managers and players when they come here. We hired two men past their prime and one who was never good enough. That’s it.

What we need to do is get a proper structure in place and stop relying on the manager to control the vision of the club, so that when things go awry it’s not as much of an issue as it is now.

Yes, 21 managers since 1892 and only three have won us a league title (two with European success). Of the 20 league title wins, 2 were won by Mangnall, 5 by Busby and 13 by Ferguson.

 

[Moriarty]

Yes they are not the main rot, they are a part of it. 600 million is more than enough to buy a good number of players to win the league, we also foot the highest wage bill. What do you want to do? Spend ever penny earned on buying players left right and center. Barring Toby, every United manager have got all the players they have asked for and players that United have missed is due to the incompetence of Woodward. The Glazers are the owners but they left the running of the club to Woodward, he is the man they listen to. If United appoint a DOF they won't listen to Woody for the footballing aspect of the game. Yes they are pocketing money, because they are businessmen and United is a cash cow for them, and any good businessmen will not want to see their cash cow drop in value. Do you think that United are playing badly because they pocket profits? Don't be so thick.

Attack the post not the poster. If you want to trade insults, I suggest you go elsewhere. If you can't see the anger that spending more on debt than on players and infrastructure causes in supporters, then I don't know what to say to you. As far as I can see, the Glazers and Woodward are two cheeks on the same arse.

 

[ash_86]

LVG was bad appoinment , Jose was the right appointment at that time. He was needed to stabilize the club in terms of top 4 which he has achieved. Time to go for the next one now.

 

[reddaz71]

The club spectacularly botched Fergusons replacement plan,hiring Moyes was a truly dreadful error of judgment and we have been in a tailspin ever since,the further appointments of defensively minded managers has pretty much led us to where we are today,in other words the club has reaped what it has sown and will take years to rectify,Mourinho now probably the right man but very much at the wrong time!

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Yes, 21 managers since 1892 and only three have won us a league title (two with European success). Of the 20 league title wins, 2 were won by Mangner, 5 by Busby and 13 by Ferguson.

Magnall...Ernest Magnall...

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

We lack direction because since Gill retired we have no proper, experienced and competent handler of football operations. That is why LVG and Mourinho, in spite of their own personality issues, also failed like Moyes. The club needs a harmonized, long term, SINGULAR direction. In which player purchases and managerial hiring is done strictly to achieve that singular vision. That is where the likes of City left us behind. Chelsea too with all their manager changes. Their vision is the same over 5 year blocks. No going from a Mourinho (defensive, direct, counter attacking coach) to a Pep (attack minded, possesion hogging) to a Klopp (geggen presser) type of thing. Similar to how we lurched from the polar opposites of Moyes to LVG to now JM.

 

[Konimey]

Attack the post not the poster. If you want to trade insults, I suggest you go elsewhere. If you can't see the anger that spending more on debt than on players and infrastructure causes in supporters, then I don't know what to say to you. As far as I can see, the Glazers and Woodward are two cheeks on the same arse.

I wasn't insulting you, you took it as one. United are in debt and Glazers are the owners, no amount of posts will change that, but atleast they are spending money unlike Kroenke. Also we are here to discuss what can be solved, and that is Woodward can be removed from running the whole club and stick to only commercial side. A DOF will solve so many problems, like identifying deadwood, targets and either keeping or sacking Jose etc. The main guy in the way is Woodward because he is running the club, if he appoints a DOF the rot will improve because the person will know what he is doing. Money is not everything.

 

[Moriarty]

The club spectacularly botched Fergusons replacement plan,hiring Moyes was a truly dreadful error of judgment and we have been in a tailspin ever since,the further appointments of defensively minded managers has pretty much led us to where we are today,in other words the club has reaped what it has sown and will take years to rectify,Mourinho now probably the right man but very much at the wrong time!

If you ask me, the loss of Gill was just as bad.

 

[glazed]

We can save even more money by keeping him around till the end of his contract!

Not really. When the fans stop buying the shirts in Asia, it costs a lot more than paying off Jose would. And he knows it. tbh I suspect he's quite cynical about the process by now.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Shit owners
Shit chief exec

Average squad

Not sure what manager is going to get United back on top until major changes happen at the top.

 

[Moriarty]

I wasn't insulting you, you took it as one. United are in debt and Glazers are the owners, no amount of posts will change that, but atleast they are spending money unlike Kroenke. Also we are here to discuss what can be solved, and that is Woodward can be removed from running the whole club and stick to only commercial side. A DOF will solve so many problems, like identifying deadwood, targets and either keeping or sacking Jose etc. The main guy in the way is Woodward because he is running the club, if he appoints a DOF the rot will improve because the person will know what he is doing. Money is not everything.

Calling someone thick isn't exactly from page one of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" but never mind. I'd love nothing more than to see Woodward shunted off to the side. He has done for football what the Boston Strangler did for door-to-door salesmen. Money may not be everything but to the Glazers, it clearly is, and Woodward is the man making the tills ring. As long as he's doing that, nothing will change. A DoF (providing we get the right one) would still have to have his purchases approved by the Glazers and marketability of incoming players figures high on their agenda. Woodward may well still have a say, maybe even veto power. That's the worry.

 

[Fitchett]

Magnall...Ernest Magnall...

Haha, we were both wrong, it was Mangnall.
My excuse is that I've had a very long day. I do know his name really, he signed my great uncle, Jack Fitchett, (hence my handle on here) to play for Manchester United in 1903.

 

[All 3 United]

The issue isn’t with who was appointed but by whom they were appointed. And yet most of the caf want Ed total idiot Woodward to appoint another!! It’s comical.

 

[wolvored]

Glazers are just businessmen who don't know shite about the game(bet they cal it soccer and refer to United as their soccer club), but as any shrewd businessmen they know that they will have to invest money for the club to be a success and money they have invested. They are not the main rot of the club, its Woodward, the man is an accountant/salesman ffs, there are fans who know and understand about football more than him and can run this club better than him. He doesn't understand the game and the transfer market yet he is incharge of running one of the biggest club in the world how is that even allowed? He is doing well in the commercial side of the club but in the main area which matters, the footballing part, he just is incompetent. The appointment of a DOF is a must, even more important than sacking Jose or selling Pogba. Just doing that would solve 50% to 60 % of United's woes, and the DOf will inturn take care of the rest and keep Woodward miles away from the footballing aspect of United.

We cant know what the Glazers are thinking, but the club is the golden egg. Even if we finish 10th every season from now on, it would take around 10 years to start losing money and then they could sell the club for a vast increase on what they paid for it. Saying that I think they know they need to keep investing heavily now moreso than when Fergie was manager who could keep us winning on a comparative shoestring budget. They have spent a lot changing the infastructure of the youth scouting and training, and at 18-19 year olds and younger looks to be working well. If the DOF/Technical director does come off then hopefully we will see an improvement with the senior side and management.

 

[Patrick220571]

I don't think either of them were the managers they once were by the time they rolled up at United. Football had moved on and they had been left behind. We took a chance based on our executive vice chairman not looking beyond their CV's.

Van Gaal was at his best in the nineties at Ajax and first Barcelona stint. We got a man who was out of touch with club football having been an international manager for the previous 4/5 years and was already contemplating his retirement. He was the wrong man to task with a squad rebuild.

Mourinho is more strange. Real Madrid seemed to damage him, but he bounced back at Chelsea and took them to the title. What happened after was unexpected, it just completely unraveled. He seems to have gone from a man who players would run through brick walls for, to a bitter moaner who players get fed up of very quickly when he publicly criticizes them. He wants to fight everyone, the press, the board, his own players. Our poor old Physio is probably next in line based on his previous behaviour. I think it is about Mourinho protecting his own reputation at the expense of just about anyone and everyone around him.

I really hoped when he arrived here that that third season at Chelsea was a one off, it is starting to look as though it wasn't.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Aren’t Man City players active on social media?Just look at the social media pages of the Liverpool squad...They are exactly like our players.But look at the hunger and the desire with which they play...

I don't care about City and Liverpool. Frankly I don't care about our players social media to be honest. I don't look at it.

The point was about caring more what happens on match day. These golden age of Ferguson players let their talking be done on the pitch and on the pitch only. I'm not seeing very many of our players taking responsibility for what is happening on the field. You even see many of our fans quick to blame everybody else but the players themselves. If they know the fans are happy with their shirking responsibilities then it is a cyclical scenario that is likely to continue on through whoever manager comes to the club. We already have a megalithic legacy on the landscape in the legacy that Ferguson left us. The players can clearly just use that to say "ah we did it all before who cares, Fergie's legacy and all that..?" whereas Liverpool players have some hunger and desire to play for not having won the league in decades and not won any major trophies in a decade. City don't have anything at all and they have some hunger and desire to build something. We have... A bunch of overpaid overcompensated "stars" who can just say "ah who cares, Fergie did it? I'm all good taking cash and running around kicking a sack of breeze around and collecting cheques.." it isn't exactly a melting pot of the 'warriors' that Mourinho wants in his squad that he can command to the title.

 

[edgar allan]

Shit owners
Shit chief exec

Average squad
You admitted Shit manager, 400 million and nothing to show for it.

Not sure what manager is going to get United back on top until major changes happen at the top.

 

[Womp]

You're being naive if you think managers are the only problem at the club. In fact, I'd argue they're one of the less significant issues. You can chop and change players and managers till the cows come home, without proper direction and planning it will all be for feck all. What other top club makes such drastic changes to personnel and play style on what's now becoming a 3 year cycle. Moyes to LVG to Jose, no consistency.

As a club, the aim is to make the transition for new managers as seamless as possible, giving them a platform to thrive. Whilst it's now become evident Jose and LVG weren't the managers they use to be, they had to basically write off a season or two trying to change the squad to match their ideologies. This makes no sense in a footballing climate where managers only stick around for like 3. With how competitive top level football is, the more complete squads, with better planning and a clear vision will always win out.

Decide on a direction going forward, plan for it long term, bring in a DOF who will overlook all those changes or we will keep going round and round in circles. Might just be me talking with my tin foil hat on, but it's seeming more and more obvious why managers seem to be so reluctant to manage us. Moyes was out of his depth, LVG was hired when it was obvious he was on decline, whilst Klopp rejected us even with that fecking nonsense adult Disney shit by Woodward and lastly Jose chose us because we were possibly his last big chance at a top club after a disastrous season, not to add Jose is always a toin coss.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I don't agree with some of the posts here that Jose was done because of a failed stint at Chelsea. To be honest, I never liked Jose when he was at other clubs. And also I was indifferent that he was selected after Van Gaal. I thought maybe he is an a**hole, but at least he is a known winner. His teams play, the so-called park the bus, but win it, ugly or otherwise.
But after the 2 cups in first season, I was really hopeful that we are on our way up and new signings that Jose would want will make us better in other departments.
The transfers didn't really work as anyone would have wanted and the team still lacks good players in key positions. Either he has got confused as to what his philosophy is. People keep talking about Jose being too defensive or park the bus. But I think his reign here is more of a chaos, rather than any set style of play. This Jose has got me confused. He neither strengthened the defense as such nor the attack.

Personally, I think Jose is part of the problem. The club and Ed really don't have any idea or vision as to what the club philosophy should be. They seem to be happy with the business side of it. Ed tries to play part football chief, but fails in making any such decisions. I think the transfer policy is also so confusing.

In short, we need a DOF or a football related team. Without that firing Jose will not do any good.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

LVG had a history of bad transfers & hardly ever good ones. That was at every club.

If we had a dof with LVG - we would have been better than we are now. I personally loved LVG games against the big guns because we didn't have that waiting type of football that happened when the smaller teams just allowed us to have the ball - that lead to over thinking on the ball. But my gosh United vs Liverpool under him was gorgeous to watch.

Never wanted Jose - just because he doesn't fit the club nor was he a good choice to take over lvg's brand of football - it was clearing the slate rather than progressing season by season.

Hopefully we don't do a whole clean slate thing again.

 

[In Rainbows]

Shit owners
Shit chief exec

Average squad

Not sure what manager is going to get United back on top until major changes happen at the top.

Why do you think the next manager is going to fail automatically? It's the manager's fault why we're playing badly. It's Woodward's fault for hiring those managers. So yes, it's Woodward's fault why we're in this mess and why we might continue to be in this mess, but that doesn't mean it's not the manager's fault for the football on display.

In short, Woodward being the root problem only means that there is more of a chance that we end up being awful because he'll again, hire the wrong manager.

 

[POF]

I think this is very harsh, LVG he had an obvious philosophy it just didn't always work out too well. When it worked it was nice like that Tottenham game.

He had a philosophy for sure. He was just a complete loon.

Off the top of my head:
- Di Maria up front.
- His main requirement for a left centre back was being left footed rather than their ability to defend.
- Phil Jones taking corners.
- Selling all of his wingers for a 3-5-2 formation, then wondering why he had no wingers when he switched back to 4-3-3.
- Then buying Memphis and starting the season with him as a number 10.
- Paddy McNair and Tyler Blackett as first team players while shipping off Michael Keane.
- My captain shall always play.
- Joining the club with a front 4 of Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck, got Falcao on loan, spent a fortune on transfer fees and left the club with an over the hill Rooney and 2 kids as the only attackers at the club.

He seemed to have an obsession with proving he was the smartest guy in the room and ended up proving himself to be the complete opposite.