Were LVG and Jose both past their prime? Or does the rot go deeper?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Nikelesh Reddy, Sep 30, 2018.

  1. Sep 30, 2018
    #1

    Nikelesh Reddy Full Member

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    Since we are all talking about who we should appoint as our next manager and we are all forensically examining their credentials,I think we should spare a moment to think about the credentials of the 2 managers that have we have appointed since 2014.Lets get this clear,whoever we appoint next will not have the stellar gold star credentials of LVG and Mourinho....

    In terms of league titles won(they both won 8 each),in terms of success in Europe,in terms of having the self confidence and the ego to manage Man United we will not find a better manager anywhere in Europe.LVG won the bundesliga and took Bayern to the finals of the CL in 2010(a very poor Bayern team),he then had great success with Holland at the WC in 2014.So was LVG really past his prime when he took over?

    Mourinho won the Premierleague 12 months before he took charge of United,So is it fair to suggest that we appointed a manager who was on the decline?I really don’t know the answer,I”m just completely bemused....When I see Chelsea going from manager to manager but still consistently challenging for the title...When I see the progress that Liverpool,City and Spurs have made over the last couple of seasons,I just cannot fathom why we are not progressing in the same way as these other clubs...

    So the moot question is this-Did we just appoint two great managers who were on the decline and who were past their prime?Or is the situation a lot more complex than that?
  2. Sep 30, 2018
    #2

    El-Manos New Member

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    Pochettino is made for United but he is clearly unavailable.
  3. Sep 30, 2018
    #3

    K2K Full Member

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    LVG yes. His career took a steep decline after his first Dutch NT stint. Followed that with a 6 month Barca stay.

    Jose has looked unhinged since Real.

    Both men were the wrong choices. (in hindsight)
  4. Sep 30, 2018
    #4

    Infordin Full Member

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    LVG peaked in the 90s
  5. Sep 30, 2018
    #5

    TsuWave Full Member

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    Mourinho came to United after being fired for having Chelsea as 16th on the table. That doesn't happen by accident.

    He's washed up.
  6. Sep 30, 2018
    #6

    Hound Dog Full Member

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    While I do think Mourinho should go, it is telling that United are the first big club he managed where he failed to deliver a title.

    His first two seasons with Chelsea were great. A CL semi, a CL quarter and a Premier League. Also a legend for preventing Liverpool from winning it.

    So, to answer the question, I do feel that whoever is brought in will also fail.
  7. Sep 30, 2018
    #7

    MuFc_1992 Full Member

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    I really don't get the whole things go deeper and there is something seriously wrong at the club theories. It all sounds pseudo religious and tries to paint the problem as bigger than it actually is. The reality is we don't have a proper structure at the club but that can be fixed by hiring a few personnel at key areas such as DOF, scouts etc. I'd start the process by sacking Mourhino and hiring Carrick or McKenna as interim manager, writing the season off and using the next year to put the structure in place before hiring the new manager. People may argue that we cannot afford to write the season off but there is no guarantee that hiring a new manager now will result in better season than putting Carrick in charge.
  8. Sep 30, 2018
    #8

    devilish Juventus fan who used to support United

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    As Rio said its both. Mou's tactics do not make sense and the squad is clearly not good enough. There again it should be good enough to beat the likes of Derby and West Ham
  9. Sep 30, 2018
    #9

    redNATION Full Member

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    A bit of both.

    Managers, like players, have a shelf life. Look at the likes of Ancelotti or Capello, legends but unlikely to ever get a job at one of the major teams. LVG and Jose have had their time. Before we got Jose, he had almost 15 years of unbroken success as a manager. Fergie was unique in staying at the top for so long. But that of course doesn’t excuse Jose for the rubbish we’re seeing - Brighton, Derby, West Ham, should be easy with that squad.

    But the structure of the club doesn’t help. The manager’s isolated, with those above him being suits and accountants, and having no clue about how the game works. It’s a broken record now, but the footballing structure needs an overhaul, to give the manager some support, and also a voice at the senior management level, such as a Dof.
  10. Sep 30, 2018
    #10

    Cloud7 Full Member

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    As a club we’ve been successful under a grand total of TWO managers in our illustrious history. We should know better than anyone that it’s possible to make multiple bad managerial appointments in a row. Not sure why people are always looking for some kind of deeper meaning than this, talking about “something being wrong with the club” like if there’s some kind of poison that infects managers and players when they come here. We hired two men past their prime and one who was never good enough. That’s it.

    What we need to do is get a proper structure in place and stop relying on the manager to control the vision of the club, so that when things go awry it’s not as much of an issue as it is now.
  11. Sep 30, 2018
    #11

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    A little bit of everything sadly.
  12. Sep 30, 2018
    #12

    Yagami Full Member

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    I definitely think they were both past their prime which is why I'm not one to think we won't challenge for the title under this board. If the next manager we sign is one who's in his prime or seemingly entering it, and is of course one who favours having the ball than not, I think we'll do alright again.

    I do honestly think if we had got a Pochettino or Sarri and gave them the funds José and van Gaal got we'd be so much better off, so the next manager, with our limited options, doesn't need to have the best list of honours. Just get a progressive manager in like all our rivlas bar Arsenal have and back them in the transfer market - that's it, imo.
  13. Sep 30, 2018
    #13

    Treble Full Member

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    Both things are not mutually exclusive.

    The deepest problem is that United are becoming more of a business organisation than a proper football club. Football is a handmaiden of the brand. It's all about the brand now.

    That said, LVG and Jose are past it. Real broke Jose. He somehow managed to win the title with Chelsea but Chelsea 2 was generally far less susccessful than Chelsea 1. And the end to Chelsea 2 was pathetic.
  14. Sep 30, 2018
    #14

    redIndianDevil Full Member

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    Both of them are past their prime.

    LvG himself admitted it, he didn't take part in the coaching at all, he delegated that to his assistants, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, SAF did it. But you have to appoint proper assistants in that case. I don't think LvG did, his signings for the way he wanted to play was completely off too, he didn't have proper advice.

    Mourinho also is too dependant on his assistants, when it comes to defensive organization he could take an hands on approach but for coaching an attack he isn't much use IMO. Mourinho is good for a team that has good players all around but for building a team from scratch, he is quite useless it seems. His entire attack seems to rely on an individual player producing a moment of magic and the rest of the team concentrating on not letting the other team score. And it goes to shit when Mourinho turns on the one player creating chances for his side.
  15. Sep 30, 2018
    #15

    redIndianDevil Full Member

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    Almost all top clubs were in transition when Chelsea won the title under Mourinho the second time around, City's players were older and Guardiola was rumoured to be taking over, we were shite, Arsenal were Arsenal, Spurs were just getting started. No wonder Leicester won it the next year.
  16. Sep 30, 2018
    #16

    Needham Full Member

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    Fantasy scenario for Utd this season is that Pochettino's recent grouchiness is a symptom of discontent. First sign of bad relations between him and Levy and Utd have to vulture in there.
  17. Sep 30, 2018
    #17

    VP Full Member

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    LVG is simply the most overrated manager in the last two decades. Mourinho is simply past his best.
  18. Sep 30, 2018
    #18

    Kostur Full Member

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    Yeah, our players and how we operate is fine, we've just been unlucky with three managers in a row running.
  19. Sep 30, 2018
    #19

    Treble Full Member

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    Spot on.
  20. Sep 30, 2018
    #20

    Treble Full Member

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    Aren't most players signed by those 3 managers though? How are Jose's signings doing?
  21. Sep 30, 2018
    #21

    Ashley R1+O New Member

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    LVG was just a total nutbar. Jose at least has won the league in England before and knows what it takes. Common denominator is the squad which is a shambles under both.
  22. Sep 30, 2018
    #22

    Kostur Full Member

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    Sure, there's also one common denominator for those players and managers, hence my 'how we operate'. Guess who.
  23. Sep 30, 2018
    #23

    Treble Full Member

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    Agreed.
  24. Sep 30, 2018
    #24

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    I get your point but at the same time I can't help but wonder why we think Woodward has that much of an impact on the players and coaches performances. I mean, I don't think he has any role dedicated to the tactics, motivation and preparation of the team. His mistakes are related to money (the ridiculous contracts here and there given to players and managers).
    However if many players aren't performing well, Woodward doesn't deserve criticism (not saying you clearly did criticize him)
  25. Sep 30, 2018
    #25

    Kostur Full Member

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    I think that the whole thing runs deeper than that. It starts with Moyes. Inept as he was, deserved sacking as it was, it was still the first player power thing that got him fired alongside his obvious shrotcomings and ineptitude. Nonetheless, it was the first sign to the players that 'if you want to sack the manager, you can do it', something that obviously was not present at the club for the previous 26 years. After Moyes was gone, plenty of players have gone public with criticism of him, generally speaking the blame could've been and has been laid on Moyes. Everybody else was absolved of the responsibility. Players came and went, new managers popped up, so the first year under LVG we've done okay-ish - we've gotten ourselves 4th, it was better than the Moyes disaster. Meanwhile we've had some questionable transfers done, Rooney's contract extended, lots of talk about 'signing a galactico', so we've gotten di Maria who never really wanted to come here, crock Falcao, past it Schweinsteiger.

    So after some time, even though our players were in awe of LVG's professionalism and honesty at first, those things became a problem. Being recorded and then analysed at Carrington became a problem. Our players were sent their performances analyses that they didn't even bother to watch because LVG's a dinosaur and how can he even question them. He was blunt with them, but honesty is only good when you're saying honest nice things about people, when shit goes sideways and it's criticism, honesty is good no more. So they got him sacked, we've won the FA so all the glory to the players but LVG goes. Situation is repeated, players go to the public, talk shit about the manager, general consensus is that it was LVG who's just way past it and new manager will get us going. Everybody else is absolved of the responsibility again.

    Mou comes in. We take him in with all the baggage that he brings, the good and the bad. He knows that people like Schweinsteiger shouldn't be here so he tries to get rid of him but we then have got Bayern, half the media and big chunk of our fanbase berate Mourinho for behaving like he did with Scheweinsteiger, even though the problem was brought upon us by Woodward and LVG, he has to deal with this shit. We've still got way past it Rooney, again, problem brought upon us by Moyes and Woodward. He finally gets rid of him, so it's a problem less. But the players still know that there's this button that they can activate that deals with the problems once they are simply bored of the manager. We've got Zlatan in, apparently he's the problem for other players because he's slowing down the play and shit. We've got Pogba who always wanted to come back here but actually wants to feck off after two or three seasons. Martial for whatever the reason is sulking, Pogba is sulking (to be fair everybody knew that sooner or later he'd do that and he wouldn't be the player for the next 10 years or so, don't know if anybody seriously ever even considered that), Raiola's dragging the club through mud but it's not really a problem for Pogba as he's getting him a new contract. Meanwhile we get Sanchez in, who seems to be nothing other than a bust for us and another Schweinsteiger case.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'd be deluded to say that Mourinho holds no responsibility for this shit, he's done plenty wrong and it's obvious here. For me, there's probably no coming back for him now so he'll have to walk. But some of the shit, including horrible mentality that runs through the veins of this club ever since SAF departed, is not on him. Players have seen the corruption ever since the Moyes times, some of the players are still here (which begs a question how clown like Jones can still be here after so many years), the same players that got Moyes and then LVG sacked. It could've been Martial's first year at the club, it could've been LVG who's brought him in, but he's seen that if you try hard enough, you can feck off the manager if you no longer favour him. Which is being the case now. Again.

    It's like with a teacher and students. If the teacher shows the students that he falters in disciplining them once, they'll know it for years to come and exploit any possiblity to take shit on him once they want to. Woodward, who plays the principal in this analogy, has come to the class, let the students take a shit on their previous teachers and prenteded that everything will be fine with a new teacher. So some of the students graduated, some new students joined the class, but the rot and corruption is still within the class because the principal has let it slide once. Now it's not really him calling the shots. It's the students, even if some of them come and go.

    You also have to ask questions of our medical staff how over the years we're still getting players like Rojo or Bailly in, who are constantly injured and unreliable. We've got Smalling, Lindelof, Jones, Rojo and Bailly as centre backs, three different managers have gotten them in and only Smalling and Lindelof are not injury prone, you can ask plenty of questions of their quality too. Honestly, how?
  26. Sep 30, 2018
    #26

    el3mel Full Member

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    It will be clear after the next manager.
  27. Sep 30, 2018
    #27

    Mcking Full Member

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    Everyone suddenly pass their prime immediately they join us. Coaches, Players, fans, scouts, everyone.
  28. Sep 30, 2018
    #28

    Ashley R1+O New Member

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    It runs through the entire strategy of the club spending crazy amounts of money on players who've done nothing and are being used as marketing pawns.

    Listen to the first 10 minutes of this QnA with Rio Ferdinand. Talking about legitimate, real hunger and desire. The comment he makes about "we didn't have social media, we only cared about what was happening on match day" is so poignant of the direction the club is going at the moment.


    The whole QnA really he just drips of the charisma and the leadership needed to make it at a top club. Inspire your team mates, drive them on and drive yourself on. I see barely any of that in our current squad.

    edit: Just the whole thing is a great listen. The club under Ferguson was an absolute phenomenon. People will look back at his regin in generations to come and say "What? Fook off, he never finished lower than 3rd in the PL era? Yer mad."
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  29. Sep 30, 2018
    #29

    Volumiza Full Member

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    In my view the rot had started two years prior to SAF leaving. When David Gill left seemed to be the beginning. A huge change in direction, with the choice seemingly made to chase as much sponsorship as possible while not recognising the importance of winning.

    I’m not blaming this solely on Woodward, LVG or Jose, or the players. Something has definately gone wrong with our club.

    And it is a rot by the way. Our crown is dusting away.

    My biggest concern is not actually winning / losing beleive it or not but DDG aside, I find myself looking at the team i have supported for about 33 years and wondering which player I actually like.

    Where are my heroes? My Robson? My Keane? My Irwin? At the moment, it is simply the badge I love, not the team and definately not the football. Worrying.
  30. Sep 30, 2018
    #30

    Sarni nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.

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    If he gave him a good amount of money and (probably most importantly) a clear plan for the future which includes our board willing to give him time and invest into the team then he would most likely move here. It could be difficult in the middle of the season but we could keep Carrick until May and then sign with Poch.
  31. Sep 30, 2018
    #31

    SER19 Full Member

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    It goes way deeper. Managers have been bad, players have been worse, our reputation is badly tarnished, every single team in the league finds another level as they sense weakness everywhere and don’t remotely sit back the way they do against other clubs, there’s a mindset of failure that seems to be causing a complete inability to deal with pressure or negative results, but above all else the board have overseen 5 years of pulling the club in various directions and we have lost any sense of direction. If you image us as a vase when fergie left it split, then moyes reign threw it on the ground again and split it into loads of pieces, van gaals reign shattered it more and mourinhos reign has at best been pushing the pieces around. Every manager is tasked with rebuilding us from a worse starting point while Woodward is selling off pieces on the side. We’re a ruin.

    I’d love to see a new direction where we put a bit of pride in our philosophy, I think we’d be applauded the world over for backing a younger manager who committed to youthful energetic play and committed to x number of academy players in squad each week. Reorder transfer policy to acquiring bright talents and the odd available top player. People ask why that’s important and generally it isn’t, but if it was part of rebuilding an identity for us it would be. Sacrifice trophies for a spell, rebuild the image of the club and we have enough resources to blend this with top players when the time is right. Continue as we are and hire guardiola and messi if you like. In ten months we’ll be the same. A bit like a worse Chelsea. They’re coping with their stagnation pretty well but it’s pretty soulless and uninspiring and we should aim for higher.
  32. Sep 30, 2018
    #32

    UweBein Full Member

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    The biggest mistake in that was to hire Mourinho after LvG. Two totally different approaches. I do think LvG build a good team, but his successor had to be someone that believes that posession matters in football. With Mourinho United hired a totally different beast.
  33. Sep 30, 2018
    #33

    Kostur Full Member

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    Yup, as much as I dislike the bald cnut, we should've done everything to get Guardiola in or somebody from the Ajax school of football. Or just never have hired LVG in the first place.

    Mourinho, in hindsight, was a perfect pick for our players too. He comes in with the '3rd season' bullshit reputation so anything happens this season, it's on Mourinho and his 3rd season syndrome. Our players know it and they'll do it.
  34. Sep 30, 2018
    #34

    The Hacker Full Member

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    It’s a good topic. I suspect it’s both, but I also think the job of manager is now almost extinct for clubs of our size. The job is just too much for 1 person. We need to spend this season fixing all of the back office infrastructure issues (DOF etc) and make a choice of Head coach that actually fits the clubs desires we style and ethos and ultimate winning aspirations better than we have done. We’re a huge club who seem to be reactive far more than I thought we would be since SAF left.

    To us fans though it’s just mind blowingly frustrating to see the dysfunction play out on the pitch.
  35. Sep 30, 2018
    #35

    UNITED ACADEMY Full Member

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    LVG didn't build a good team at all.

    He lost 3 strikers (Falcao, RVP, Chicharito) and we replaced 3 with 1 striker (Martial). And that one striker end up playing on the left most of the games. He replaced Di Maria with Memphis Depay. He signed a player who has lost his touch Schweinsteiger. He signed an average mid table midfielder Scheniderlin and average full back Darmian.

    Overall it was disaster and he wasted a lot of our money for average players.

    The positives about him was Martial looks good under him management, Marcus Rashford promotion, Blind & Smalling partnership looks decent.
  36. Sep 30, 2018
    #36

    GhastlyHun Full Member

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    I think SAF's omnipresence in all parts of club management is costing you still. When he was gone he left a vacuum of unclear responsibilities which have not been convincingly sorted to this day. The club failed to transition the centralised power of decision from one guy to a staff of people, and seems to be still waiting for SAF2.0 to take over everything for the long term instead of creating these management structures.
  37. Sep 30, 2018
    #37

    Andrew~ Squiggle

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    I don’t think Jose is past it. His current issues are because of a combination of his personality, play style not fitting with the club and the weird structure United has.

    Feels like he was stuck trying to prove that he could play attacking football and use young players (not his thing) that he’s ended up compromising what he does best. This has then lead to the personal clashes with players and he’s lost some of the squad. He might do well somewhere else.
  38. Sep 30, 2018
    #38

    Brophs The one and only

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    Yes to both
  39. Sep 30, 2018
    #39

    lysglimt Full Member

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    LvG's problem was that he signed the wrong players - but he managed to get a lot out of the players he did not sign. Mourinhos problem tactically - is that he signs players without looking like he has a clue how to use them in his system. It's perfectly fine playing a system to sit back and counter - when you have a Hazard, a Robben, a Ronaldo, a Ribery or a Salah - but when you don't sign those kind of players you can't play that system. And everyone can see that we are missing a Kante type of player - a quick midfielder who can win the ball back. Still we are playing with Fellaini (who in fairness perhaps has been our least poor midfielder), Matic and Pogba...or McTominay.

    So we are sitting low - with no players to win the ball back and no players who are good on the counter....everyone can see that is not bound to work.

    Imagine if we had played a 4-3-3 against West Ham. DDG - Shaw, Smalling, Bailly, Young - Matic, Fred, Pogba - Sanchez, Martial and Lukaku - but instead of sitting low - we would attack them. Put pressure on them and win the ball back - that is how we should play. West Ham aren't good enough to play out from the back if they are put under pressure. Let Felipe, Yarmolenko work defensively - which they are not good at.

    But no - we played to their strengths....if Mourinho isn't fired by the time we play Valencia - it's a joke
  40. Sep 30, 2018
    #40

    Green_Red Full Member

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    We've got major problems up and down Manchester United, not just the managers.

    We have owners who judge success by dividends and profit margins.

    We have a chairman who is more concerned with commercial success than success on the football pitch.

    We have a manager who is a great manager but not a Manchester United manager hence the dismal displays on the pitch.

    We have a bunch of players that signed for us for the size of the paycheck not the prestige of playing for the club.

    We have a fan base that are impatient and only care about winning, anything less is a failure.

    We're a rotten sinking ship.

    Honestly, I think we have become Liverpool of Houlliers era.

    To answer the op, LvG and Mourinho weren't past their best, they just aren't Manchester United managers.