Were LVG and Jose both past their prime? Or does the rot go deeper?

[Yagami]

Jesus, what's with the shots?

Ha, no shots! I just don't think Emery is in the same calibre of the others is all. He is a fine manager who I think will do well at Arsenal but I'd like us to get someone in who favours attacking and having the ball like others. Emery is too pragmatic for my liking.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

This.Theres a lot of revisionism going on here...LVG looked like an excellent choice in 2014,especially after what he did at the WC.Mourinho looked like the perfect fit in 2016...We were absolutely convinced that he would win us the league atleast once...

It's the sequence of the different playing styles that our managers have which caused us problems. LVG followed by Jose is the worst possible combination as they both need totally different types of players.

LVG spent alot of money building up the squad for his possession play midgets. Then Jose comes in and needs totally different types of players for his counter attack style with giants.

Funnily enough I think Jose would've been the perfect replacement for Fergie. But once again our board demonstrated lack of football knowledge and non existent succession planning have weakened the club.

No footballing vision at all. No long term plan. Absolute joke.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Why can't it be a bit of both? For me, Mourinho and LVG were both clearly past their best when we got them. And regardless of far they were down that path of decline, their present selves didn't have enough to succeed at United. So yes, I do think Jose Mourinho needs replacing as LVG did and we need a more progressive manager as weve all discussed.

At the same time you can't deny the fact that we lack a bit of vision as a football club. A great manager can obviously paper over that and is a more important factor keeping in mind our big spending, but we definitely need to up our game when it comes to the overarching direction of the football club.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Haha, we were both wrong, it was Mangnall.
My excuse is that I've had a very long day. I do know his name really, he signed my great uncle, Jack Fitchett, (hence my handle on here) to play for Manchester United in 1903.

LOL!Its a tricky name,Mangnall it is!!Wow,that’s really cool man...Your probably the only member on this forum who comes from a former United players family!Nice...

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

I don't care about City and Liverpool. Frankly I don't care about our players social media to be honest. I don't look at it.

The point was about caring more what happens on match day. These golden age of Ferguson players let their talking be done on the pitch and on the pitch only. I'm not seeing very many of our players taking responsibility for what is happening on the field. You even see many of our fans quick to blame everybody else but the players themselves. If they know the fans are happy with their shirking responsibilities then it is a cyclical scenario that is likely to continue on through whoever manager comes to the club. We already have a megalithic legacy on the landscape in the legacy that Ferguson left us. The players can clearly just use that to say "ah we did it all before who cares, Fergie's legacy and all that..?" whereas Liverpool players have some hunger and desire to play for not having won the league in decades and not won any major trophies in a decade. City don't have anything at all and they have some hunger and desire to build something. We have... A bunch of overpaid overcompensated "stars" who can just say "ah who cares, Fergie did it? I'm all good taking cash and running around kicking a sack of breeze around and collecting cheques.." it isn't exactly a melting pot of the 'warriors' that Mourinho wants in his squad that he can command to the title.

I disagree.A footballer doesn’t care how many titles were won before he joined the club,he’s only bothered about the trophies that he wins at the club.De Gea,Valencia,Young,Smalling and Jones are the only players to have won a league title...So motivation shouldn’t be a problem at all.The majority of the players in our squad are just like the Liverpool and Spurs players...They haven’t won a league or a CL...

 

[Ashley R1+O]

I disagree.A footballer doesn’t care how many titles were won before he joined the club,he’s only bothered about the trophies that he wins at the club.De Gea,Valencia,Young,Smalling and Jones are the only players to have won a league title...So motivation shouldn’t be a problem at all.The majority of the players in our squad are just like the Liverpool and Spurs players...They haven’t won a league or a CL...

I agree, it shouldn't. But I personally don't see how anyone couldn't look at this playing group and some of the results over the last two years and think they aren't coasting and then dropping tools and bailing out when the going gets tough. We weren't just out played against West Ham we were absolutely mugged. Grown men being bullied, jarring to see a United team have done to them what they did under Ferguson for decades.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Ikon]

In hindsight I think that both LVG & Mourinho were over the hill, Moyes was just out of his depth, added to this, I think too many of our players are nowhere near as good as they should be and there is an attitude of just being content to coast along, having the prestige of playing for Manchester United, on a long contract and getting paid an obscene amount.

Having said that, there is more than enough quality in our squad to forge a very good team from, but we look an absolute shambles.
The buck must always stop with the manager, he has not achieved the basic task of getting the best from what he has.

 

[NLunited]

It's like the owners don't care how well we play at all, as long as profits are good.

 

[Scroto Baggins]

Jose is guilty, there is no doubt in that, but he has accomplices, he is not guilty on his own.

 

[RedRonaldo]

There are 3 main issues which lead to our mess:

1. Wrong appointment, from Moyes to LVG to Mourinho, there isn't any coherency in style.

2. Bad management, Mourinho isn't proven manager for long term, his style is outdated and he's past his best.

3. Wrong signing, we are still lacking quality at the back, and we have no right winger. Out highest paid player is a flop, and some of our biggest signings didn't deliver.

 

[red4ever 79]

There are 3 main issues which lead to our mess:

1. Wrong appointment, from Moyes to LVG to Mourinho, there isn't any coherency in style.

2. Bad management, Mourinho isn't proven manager for long term, his style is outdated and he's past his best.

3. Wrong signing, we are still lacking quality at the back, and we have no right winger. Out highest paid player is a flop, and some of our biggest signings didn't deliver.

You need to add in player power at the club. It absolutely stinks from some of these prima donnas. Get a Cloughie or Ferguson in there and rattle the feckers.

 

[Wolfbot]

I was quite excited at the prospect of both LGV and Mourinho taking over when each were appointed considering their reputations. With LVG I expected to really dominate games with lots of position and expected Mourinho to be more defensive minded but with a blistering counter attack as is his trademark. I think where both managers went wrong is trying imprint their playing styles on squads that are/were not equipped for it and have refused to try something else when it isn't working. You either go with the philosophy and gradually rebuild a team with that in mind, to my mind neither manager has bought players that have really been a fit for how they are trying to play, nor have the chosen to adapt to a playing style that suits the players available to them which has led to mediocrity and unrest for both the players and manager.

I feel both have been backed heavily financially and good players have been brought in and made to look poor due to the playing styles employed. I'm fully confident that a more attacking style would suit the players we have with some additions/replacements. Attacking would take pressure off the defenders, the front players would be less isolated and we'd likely see a bit more from Pogba as well. In my opinion Pogba and Lukaku are potentially the two most dangerous players we have so a manager should be looking at how to get the best from them and build the playing style around that. Mourinho is too stubborn to do that so we need someone that can. The "crisis" can be reversed but we need a manager who is going to play with the players strengths in mind rather than forcing them to play "their" way and chopping and changing the squad every single week if they are then deemed to have underperformed.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Why do you think the next manager is going to fail automatically? It's the manager's fault why we're playing badly. It's Woodward's fault for hiring those managers. So yes, it's Woodward's fault why we're in this mess and why we might continue to be in this mess, but that doesn't mean it's not the manager's fault for the football on display.

In short, Woodward being the root problem only means that there is more of a chance that we end up being awful because he'll again, hire the wrong manager.

I didn't say another manager will automatically fail - I juat said that i'm not sure which manager could turn it round at present given the state of the club

 

[Fitchett]

LOL!Its a tricky name,Mangnall it is!!Wow,that’s really cool man...Your probably the only member on this forum who comes from a former United players family!Nice...

Cheers mate! It's one of my biggest regrets that I never met my great uncle - he died before I was born. But his two sisters - my grandmother and great aunt - used to tell me plenty of tales about him when I was a boy

 

[CA_vampire]

It is not easy to get to the top. There is no guarantee that we will return to the top. If nothing else, we have to outspend everyone else (or get lucky and find world class players cheap, before anyone else finds them).

 

[VeevaVee]

Poor approach to football, poor motivational qualities and poor transfer strategy. That applies to all 3 since Fergie left.

 

[Foritfied]

The rot starts with the club, but goes right through some of our playing staff as well as our manager.

I don't think we could have predicted what is happening with Jose here - I know there is the incidence of the 'third season syndrome' that a lot of people like to trot out as if this shows some genius. Fact is, Jose has won at many clubs, but it seems he is having to fight with the board, the players, the media, and even some of our supporters. Prior to his taking this job, I don't think any one of us would have looked at Mourinho sides and said they're tactically naive. He's a brilliant manager in that regard. I cannot put my hand on what hasn't clicked this season. He certainly had us in a position to encroach the top spot in the prem toward the tail end of last season (regardless of our playing style, we were getting the points) - but he just wasn't backed in the summer. Look at our rivals, willing to spend on luxury attackers and break records to fill holes in the squad.

I am not sure which players at this point I trust to enact Jose's plan. Pogba's public spat with the manager points to some rot within the playing staff - does it come from Pogba himself or is there a contingent who are pushing back on the management? I wonder how Pogba would have been handled if it were LVG still at the helm.

Give Lingard the captain's armband ffs. He's the only player that will run through walls to serve this club and my heart <3

 

[tjb]

I think that the whole thing runs deeper than that. It starts with Moyes. Inept as he was, deserved sacking as it was, it was still the first player power thing that got him fired alongside his obvious shrotcomings and ineptitude. Nonetheless, it was the first sign to the players that 'if you want to sack the manager, you can do it', something that obviously was not present at the club for the previous 26 years. After Moyes was gone, plenty of players have gone public with criticism of him, generally speaking the blame could've been and has been laid on Moyes. Everybody else was absolved of the responsibility. Players came and went, new managers popped up, so the first year under LVG we've done okay-ish - we've gotten ourselves 4th, it was better than the Moyes disaster. Meanwhile we've had some questionable transfers done, Rooney's contract extended, lots of talk about 'signing a galactico', so we've gotten di Maria who never really wanted to come here, crock Falcao, past it Schweinsteiger.

So after some time, even though our players were in awe of LVG's professionalism and honesty at first, those things became a problem. Being recorded and then analysed at Carrington became a problem. Our players were sent their performances analyses that they didn't even bother to watch because LVG's a dinosaur and how can he even question them. He was blunt with them, but honesty is only good when you're saying honest nice things about people, when shit goes sideways and it's criticism, honesty is good no more. So they got him sacked, we've won the FA so all the glory to the players but LVG goes. Situation is repeated, players go to the public, talk shit about the manager, general consensus is that it was LVG who's just way past it and new manager will get us going. Everybody else is absolved of the responsibility again.

Mou comes in. We take him in with all the baggage that he brings, the good and the bad. He knows that people like Schweinsteiger shouldn't be here so he tries to get rid of him but we then have got Bayern, half the media and big chunk of our fanbase berate Mourinho for behaving like he did with Scheweinsteiger, even though the problem was brought upon us by Woodward and LVG, he has to deal with this shit. We've still got way past it Rooney, again, problem brought upon us by Moyes and Woodward. He finally gets rid of him, so it's a problem less. But the players still know that there's this button that they can activate that deals with the problems once they are simply bored of the manager. We've got Zlatan in, apparently he's the problem for other players because he's slowing down the play and shit. We've got Pogba who always wanted to come back here but actually wants to feck off after two or three seasons. Martial for whatever the reason is sulking, Pogba is sulking (to be fair everybody knew that sooner or later he'd do that and he wouldn't be the player for the next 10 years or so, don't know if anybody seriously ever even considered that), Raiola's dragging the club through mud but it's not really a problem for Pogba as he's getting him a new contract. Meanwhile we get Sanchez in, who seems to be nothing other than a bust for us and another Schweinsteiger case.

Now don't get me wrong, I'd be deluded to say that Mourinho holds no responsibility for this shit, he's done plenty wrong and it's obvious here. For me, there's probably no coming back for him now so he'll have to walk. But some of the shit, including horrible mentality that runs through the veins of this club ever since SAF departed, is not on him. Players have seen the corruption ever since the Moyes times, some of the players are still here (which begs a question how clown like Jones can still be here after so many years), the same players that got Moyes and then LVG sacked. It could've been Martial's first year at the club, it could've been LVG who's brought him in, but he's seen that if you try hard enough, you can feck off the manager if you no longer favour him. Which is being the case now. Again.

It's like with a teacher and students. If the teacher shows the students that he falters in disciplining them once, they'll know it for years to come and exploit any possiblity to take shit on him once they want to. Woodward, who plays the principal in this analogy, has come to the class, let the students take a shit on their previous teachers and prenteded that everything will be fine with a new teacher. So some of the students graduated, some new students joined the class, but the rot and corruption is still within the class because the principal has let it slide once. Now it's not really him calling the shots. It's the students, even if some of them come and go.

You also have to ask questions of our medical staff how over the years we're still getting players like Rojo or Bailly in, who are constantly injured and unreliable. We've got Smalling, Lindelof, Jones, Rojo and Bailly as centre backs, three different managers have gotten them in and only Smalling and Lindelof are not injury prone, you can ask plenty of questions of their quality too. Honestly, how?

I like your post. It basically states the problems exactly as they unfolded. LVG was the biggest failure for the club and brought the biggest mess, he sold some of the most consistent players under Fergie and replaced them with really average players, to the point where Mourinho came to a club with only one true starter in the entire line up. We still have Herrera rojo, smalling, jones, lindelof, valencia, young, lingard, rashford, martial and fellaini starting many minutes for us, despite the fact that they have never shown any true consistency ( bar Valencia) in their man utd careers. That is telling. Our problem under Mourinho was quality, and even though Jose has gone a long way into building a decent squad, we are still lagging behind.

 

[tjb]

We had a DOF in SAF and a chairman that shared that vision In Gil. Let's be honest about SAF, yes he was our manager but so much more than that. He was involved in all the footballing aspects of our club from the youth team to the seniors and wanted a say in all of them. I'm certain Gil and SAF had a vision going forward and when they left two key positions at the club were changed and all that planning and vision for the future was left for their successors to devise.

Woody was appointed and not being a football man he chose famous names like LVG and Mourinho to handle the footballing side of the club, not realizing or fully understanding the position SAF actually held at the club.

Now there's no plan behind it all at it's easy to see. We appoint a manager throw money at him and expect results. The manager doesn't deliver so we sack him and start over. And in this process of changing managers we change staff and players. I guess this would eventually bring a trophy or two but it's not a stable way of going forward.

We desperatly need a vision going forward, so no matter who the manager is our plan and staff stays similar. We can't rebuild the squad and staff every time a new manager joins, in all honesty it's just idiotic.

This is actively being fixed though. Utd understand how important it is for the manager to have control over the decision making regarding the first team squad, so instead of having a director of football who supersedes the manager, they will have a technical director who works hand in hand with him. The key is buying the type of players that suit the values and style of the club ( which is the feature we had under Fergie). Our biggest problem since Fergie left for me has not necessarily been how past it the manager's are, but how poor the players they work with have been( Moyes being the exception). I always felt that our football under LVG was only as tepid in position due to the inability of our players to move the ball quickly enough due more to lack of quality than tactics. In addition, our attackers unwillingness to act both in and out of possession are similar features both Jose and LVG have suffered at United, which tells you how poor and unreliable Martial, Rashford, Lingard, and Mata have been at United. Replace these guys with quality starting level players, and the results will show in goals. In addition, our defence has usually been terrible on the ball and poor when not given adequate cover. Our full back position has improved during this quarter, so if we can fix our centre back issue and add a solid right winger, I can see us performing well.

 

[tjb]

LVG was bad appoinment , Jose was the right appointment at that time. He was needed to stabilize the club in terms of top 4 which he has achieved. Time to go for the next one now.

I agree. People are angry at Jose now, but he brought in some good players, has built the squad, shown us that we can compete at the top by finishing second and winning trophies. He may not have been a good fit long term, but in terms of returning utd back to the big time in england, he has done that. The next manager's job is to make us one of Europe's best again

 

[tjb]

He had a philosophy for sure. He was just a complete loon.

Off the top of my head:
- Di Maria up front.
- His main requirement for a left centre back was being left footed rather than their ability to defend.
- Phil Jones taking corners.
- Selling all of his wingers for a 3-5-2 formation, then wondering why he had no wingers when he switched back to 4-3-3.
- Then buying Memphis and starting the season with him as a number 10.
- Paddy McNair and Tyler Blackett as first team players while shipping off Michael Keane.
- My captain shall always play.
- Joining the club with a front 4 of Van Persie, Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck, got Falcao on loan, spent a fortune on transfer fees and left the club with an over the hill Rooney and 2 kids as the only attackers at the club.

He seemed to have an obsession with proving he was the smartest guy in the room and ended up proving himself to be the complete opposite.

For me he single handedly ruined us. Valencia as a poor right back came from him, as Rafael was let go. He did not sign one decent centre back in his time here despite making it clear how poor the ones we had were. He let evra go and bought Darmian. Like you said, he completely ruined our attack, let our best players go ( Nani, Chicarito etc) and brought in a squadron of average players that would look more at home at St Mary's than at Old Trafford.

 

[ryansgirl]

Right - so we're blaming a proven winner and someone more than capable of handling big club pressure in Jose for the fact that our absolutely over-paid players as are all contemporary professional football players, are not performing. All the 'lost the dressing room' rhetoric is just pathetic. You pull on the jersey, especially the Manchester United one, you give it your utmost.

Professional football is a job. I can tell you in my job if I don't give 100 percent based on the fact I don't like my manager/owner I will be out on my ear. This is the way it happens in jobs. This is what people all around the world do every day - they go to work and do their best regardless of the fact that many are being paid depressed wages and salaries.

There are too many Manchester United players not giving their utmost. If they have been doing so, we would not have lost against so many lesser talented teams with budgets that come nowhere near ours. Recruit players who have the skills we need but want to play - regardless of how they feel about the manager, how much lower the team they play against is, how cold it is, how warm it is, how uncomfortable the pitch is etc etc.

Of course Jose has recruited some of the players who don't perform but why the Manchester United administration allowed us to go the Chelsea/City way and forget about our club's identity and soul is on them. They control the purse-strings. At a basic level, youth development has to be the focus. Expensive signings have to a large extent failed.

But sack Jose and Manchester United will go further down. Other big name clubs who played the managerial merry-go-round have failed to win even one title since the inception of the Premier League.

 

[Masterman]

LvG was never a top manager, his time at Bayern summed him up. Won the league in first season, utter disgrace the second season. Why he even got the job in the first place is a question that I am still wondering and speaks volumes of the dysfunction at the boardroom. Mourinho has more achievements than LvG and has a better claim to be a top manager, but the fact that he's a short term manager is something that is well documented in his former clubs. And the board should have known that before hiring him.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

I agree, it shouldn't. But I personally don't see how anyone couldn't look at this playing group and some of the results over the last two years and think they aren't coasting and then dropping tools and bailing out when the going gets tough. We weren't just out played against West Ham we were absolutely mugged. Grown men being bullied, jarring to see a United team have done to them what they did under Ferguson for decades.

Agree to disagree.

So then that’s the managers fault...The manager isn’t able to inspire and motivate them to give their blood,sweat and tears for the team.The City,Liverpool,Chelsea players are also prima donnas...But the managers of those clubs have been able to inspire them.Either our manager has failed to inspire them,or our players are just not good enough...Or it’s a bit of both...

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

It's the sequence of the different playing styles that our managers have which caused us problems. LVG followed by Jose is the worst possible combination as they both need totally different types of players.

LVG spent alot of money building up the squad for his possession play midgets. Then Jose comes in and needs totally different types of players for his counter attack style with giants.

Funnily enough I think Jose would've been the perfect replacement for Fergie. But once again our board demonstrated lack of football knowledge and non existent succession planning have weakened the club.

No footballing vision at all. No long term plan. Absolute joke.

Bailly,Lindelof,Pogba,Matic,Sanchez weren’t even around when LVG was here and yet Mourinho has miserably failed to get the best out of them.Out of these 5 Lindelof is the only one who doesn’t have the quality to play for United,so we can write him off as a bad buy.But Matic(as a defensive midfielder) and Sanchez should be at the peak of their powers....Pogba and Bailly should be doing much better.

I agree with you that the transition from Rodgers to Klopp,or Pellegrini to Guardiola was much smoother than LVG to Mourinho(in terms of playing style).But our players should have struggled to make the transition for the first 6 months,or maybe the 1st season at best.We are now into Mourinhos 3rd season and we”re still a shambles...This has nothing to do with LVGs philosophy 3 years ago.The players should have easily gotten over that by now...

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Bailly,Lindelof,Pogba,Matic,Sanchez weren’t even around when LVG was here and yet Mourinho has miserably failed to get the best out of them.Out of these 5 Lindelof is the only one who doesn’t have the quality to play for United,so we can write him off as a bad buy.But Matic(as a defensive midfielder) and Sanchez should be at the peak of their powers....Pogba and Bailly should be doing much better.

I agree with you that the transition from Rodgers to Klopp,or Pellegrini to Guardiola was much smoother than LVG to Mourinho(in terms of playing style).But our players should have struggled to make the transition for the first 6 months,or maybe the 1st season at best.We are now into Mourinhos 3rd season and we”re still a shambles...This has nothing to do with LVGs philosophy 3 years ago.The players should have easily gotten over that by now...

I'm not talking about Mourinho, I'm talking about Woodward.

Point is that these management styles (Moyes,LVG then Mourinho) are completely incompatible in terms of the type of player required. Good luck signing a whole new squad, getting them to gel and not signing any players who don't live up to expectations every time we change a manager.

Woodwards mistakes don't give Mourinho a free pass at all. I'm saying that we have been mismanaged from top to bottom.

 

[JMack1234]

Both.

The problems at this club are multi-facated. One such problem is we don't have football people making key decisions. When historians write about Mourinho they'll conclude he wasn't the same manager after his stint Madrid. You do wonder if he suffered from a bit of paradise syndrome..got his dream job in Spain. Did okay and he hasn't had the same spark since.

 

[Loon]

I would love to know if Bobby Charlton still keeps an eye on football outside United. He was the man who brought Ferguson to United (while Atkinson was still manager), and his reported objections and warnings over the appointment of Mourinho appear to have come to fruition.

Absolute football man, who witnessed the post-Busby debacle first-hand, I wonder who he thinks we should look to?

 

[steffyr2]

The rot starts with the club, but goes right through some of our playing staff as well as our manager.

I don't think we could have predicted what is happening with Jose here - I know there is the incidence of the 'third season syndrome' that a lot of people like to trot out as if this shows some genius. Fact is, Jose has won at many clubs, but it seems he is having to fight with the board, the players, the media, and even some of our supporters. Prior to his taking this job, I don't think any one of us would have looked at Mourinho sides and said they're tactically naive. He's a brilliant manager in that regard. I cannot put my hand on what hasn't clicked this season. He certainly had us in a position to encroach the top spot in the prem toward the tail end of last season (regardless of our playing style, we were getting the points) - but he just wasn't backed in the summer. Look at our rivals, willing to spend on luxury attackers and break records to fill holes in the squad.

I am not sure which players at this point I trust to enact Jose's plan. Pogba's public spat with the manager points to some rot within the playing staff - does it come from Pogba himself or is there a contingent who are pushing back on the management? I wonder how Pogba would have been handled if it were LVG still at the helm.

Give Lingard the captain's armband ffs. He's the only player that will run through walls to serve this club and my heart <3

The supporter thing (or lack of supporter thing) is weird, especially here. I can't tell if the cafe new members are a swarm coming over to post from some other club, or if the constant cry for something (someone!) new is just the way things go now.

The board and Woodward are just incompetent. They didn't plan for Sir Alex leaving, they let David Gill leave at the exact same time, they agreed to hire Moyes and then let him fire everyone else who knew how Utd worked. Not firing Mourinho this summer and not getting him the players he needed was awful. Truly bizarre. Not letting players go that Mourinho doesn't want is terrible also, how could the atmosphere be anything but bad with a bunch of unwanted players just rotting here?

I'd have alot more sympathy for the players if they showed any ability at all.

Journalists, I don't expect much of.