What are our values as a club?

[Buster15]

When Fergie retired a huge chunk of United died.

Extremely well said and I completely agree.

To me, Manchester United used to mean something. Of course we did not always win but when it was time to change the players and rebuilt a new team the transfers were (in the main) pretty obvious to understand.

As had been pointed out, we are unfortunately just another club and not a particularly good one at that.

 

[simonhch]

I always associated United's key value as being swashbuckling football and a never say die spirit. Unfortunately, they walked out the door when Fergie retired. Klopp wouldv'e been the perfect manager for us.

 

[Denis79]

Doubt Woodward and the owners care about the values of old or they would have done differently after SAF's retirement.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Under Ferguson - Attacking football, exploiting the flanks & getting crosses in, intimidating the opposition, lots of options going forward, promoting youth, rarely buying players over 26, never say die attitude, late goals, Glazers sucking the club dry, not signing a fecking midfielder

Post Ferguson - Overpaying in the transfer market, signing players we don't really need while neglecting areas we need to strengthen, more of a brand than a football club, being very cautious & slow in our play, boring to watch

 

[Ekeke]

The only quality we have now is some of the never say die attitude and so we can come back from a poor start sometimes. Nothing else

 

[Arruda]

Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

I think you are. I mean, look at the values you listed:

- courage
- adventure
- taking risks
- entertaining
- never say die attitude
- trusting in youth and defending them to the hilt

I mean, it all sounds very nice. But half of football fans would identify those, or similarly sounding nice things, as the values of their club. Would Real Madrid, Juventus, Parma, AEK or Feirense fans say something much different?

If Mourinho was playing pragmatically boring but extremely effective football, and winning trophies with it, Manchester United fans would think their values were being upheld. Because in the end, us fans, care about winning. Even fans of clubs that never won much.

 

[Darkhorsez]

Through the decades I have followed our club, the single value that I hold most is that we never give up. I feel that this still remains but we lack the necessary quality in our team.

 

[manc exile]

Unfortunately everyone at the club sat around getting fat and lazy around all of his success - not realizing that his departure would leave such a massive void, and not preparing themselves to fill in any of those spaces. Literally as irresponsible as a management team could be. The more that this ineptitude becomes clear, the easier it is to think that Fergie was the sole reason for the success...the easier it is to feel like the club is lost and it's going to be a real struggle to figure any of this out.

Who do we trust at the club right now to get this right?

we did the same when busby retired and that was only fixed 16 years later.
i dont trust anyone at the club to get it right

 

[stevoc]

I think you are. I mean, look at the values you listed:

- courage
- adventure
- taking risks
- entertaining
- never say die attitude
- trusting in youth and defending them to the hilt

I mean, it all sounds very nice. But half of football fans would identify those, or similarly sounding nice things, as the values of their club. Would Real Madrid, Juventus, Parma, AEK or Feirense fans say something much different?

If Mourinho was playing pragmatically boring but extremely effective football, and winning trophies with it, Manchester United fans would think their values were being upheld. Because in the end, us fans, care about winning. Even fans of clubs that never won much.

I don't know about that, certainly the type of fans that only care about the result and winning trophies at the end of a season would be satisfied. But a lot of people would get sick of watching boring football, trophies or no trophies. The complaining would be quieter at first certainly but a lot of United fans watch football for entertainment, they want to see attacking football with flair and young players coming through the academy into the 1st team.

 

[Eyepopper]

- Brand
- Commercial revenue
- Social media profile
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- Football

 

[AndyJ1985]

Our values? Get as many sponsorship deals as possible, and sign the biggest names available to get as many social media clicks as possible. More exposure, more money, more sponsorship deals, more money.

The footballing side of our club has no values.

 

[Seij]

Our current values seem to be focusing on getting that next official instant ramen sponsor.

 

[Leftback99]

There is no leadership in this team that would uphold the 'values' that we've been built on.

Ignoring ability (because its obviously a no contest) but what is the equivalent of the core we had of Giggs, Scholes, Neville plus the likes of Carrick, Rio, Rooney, Fletcher etc?

Young, Smalling, Jones, Valencia, De Gea are our experienced heads, I can't imagine they get much respect from the younger players.

 

[Bubz27]

The owners value CL money and that's it. Don't care how we do it.

Moyes wasnt sacked until it was mathematically impossible. LVG only survived because he a cup final to play.

And the only reason they wait is because it's probably cheaper to wait.

 

[RooneyLegend]

We win
We play attacking football
We believe in youth.

Jose ticked only one of those boxes and yet foolishly we still hired him. Moyes ticked nothing and Van Gaal was outdated.

 

[van Nistelrooy]

Bleed the fan base dry.

 

[sdb4884]

They went out the window when we brought in Falcao and Di Maria and still got smashed by Leicester

 

[Sky1981]

Was it "OUR" value? Or was it just romanticism about the club we support?

Like... courage/adventure/taking risk are all subjective speaking, you can create this sort of value out of every footballing club. Attacking exciting football? Says who? Barcelona/Madrid are also an attacking club, you don't see them bragging about "Attacking" as one of their unique value.

By all means fans would find romantic notions about the club they support, fair play, but let's not rewrite history as if we're such a unique club with unique values.

 

[Sky1981]

Through the decades I have followed our club, the single value that I hold most is that we never give up. I feel that this still remains but we lack the necessary quality in our team.

We gave up now. We gave up even before the season start, no optimism, no nothing. Many predicted we'll be out of top 4 and finished 6th before the ball was even kicked.

So much for never give up.

 

[Sky1981]

We win
We play attacking football
We believe in youth.

Jose ticked only one of those boxes and yet foolishly we still hired him. Moyes ticked nothing and Van Gaal was outdated.

Such myth, apart from the CO92 we don't believe in youth.

Macheda is one of those instance where it'll stick with the memories of many, but we've lost lots of young exciting player (Pique, Pogba, Morisson, etc) because we're too scared to give them game time. Fletcher/John O'shea/Wes Brown arent' exactly trusted, they started around 23-24 and if it wasn't for their patience they'd be long gone.

 

[The Boy]

Bleed the fan base dry.

Fans of lots of football clubs say this - but Utd has frozen season and match day ticket prices for 7-8 years now and offers 15 pound tickets to 18-25 year olds - not too shabby.

Not saying your wrong in other aspects, I have no clue about utd product prices and shirts etc, but for match going fans there's not many other clubs can claim to have frozen prices like that.

 

[99withaflake]

Such myth, apart from the CO92 we don't believe in youth.

Macheda is one of those instance where it'll stick with the memories of many, but we've lost lots of young exciting player (Pique, Pogba, Morisson, etc) because we're too scared to give them game time. Fletcher/John O'shea/Wes Brown arent' exactly trusted, they started around 23-24 and if it wasn't for their patience they'd be long gone.

Since 1937, a youth team graduate has made every single match day squad for the first team.

That’s almost 4,000 consecutive games. No other club comes close to this.

As well as the Class of 92, we also had a group of youngsters called the Busby Babes.

Of course the club goes through spells of good young players and average young players, but for most of our history we’ve given them a chance.

 

[Sb_16]

We gave up on what made us successful and decided to take a short-cut to pursue success. Being successful wasn't our value, our value was what made us successful.

It was our identity. The people at the top didn't appreciate it as much. However, they are not all to blame as reading through this forum, i think some fans also don't think our identity mattered much.

 

[Needham]

On the pitch values depend entirely on the manager in charge. Off the pitch values are like alliances, there are no permanent ones. But the club does have an ever growing list of interests that it would like to remain permanent.

 

[Werd.]

They went out the window when we brought in Falcao and Di Maria and still got smashed by Leicester

Man that game somehow broke the club/players in general. We were playing free flowing attacking football in that period and all of a sudden we lose 5-3 and not many games after have we dared to show the same desire/intent/cohesion. I guess didn't help LVG instilled zombie fooball methods soon after.

 

[Phil Osophy]

Twitter, facebook and instagram.

 

[BrilliantOrange]

This is an absolute crucial question to which in my opinion only Sir Alex and people (players/staff) who were at United during the SAF period can answer.. I'm still a (relatively) young guy, so I haven been around pre SAF, but basically everyone I talk to about United who are claiming that 'United isn't United anymore' are referring to the United and the values Sir Alex left behind.

It wasn't necessarily 'club culture' if you ask me. It was the way SAF works. SAF his values were United values, even back then the United values werent written down somewhere of forces upon players/staff from above.. There just were 'there' automagically because SAF obviously acted upon his own values and vision... Since he left there has been a total lack of vision and structure from a pure football perspective (transfer, youth, style of play) and it was all left to the manager in charge (absolute cnuts so far...)

Let SAF and some of the key people during his time (Keane, Scholes, Neville, Meulensteen, Carrick, whoever SAF feels fit) work this out in a way and manner that they feel fit. Let them approve of and or/appoint a director of football (or one of themselves) who is responsible for putting the right football people in the right place in the organization (scouting, head of youth, manager etc)..

Shouting down that 'attacking football' is a crucial value for United is an easy thing to say, but what was it really that made everyone agree that the United way of SAF was an attacking style of play? Was it the fact that they always played full pressure? Was is the system? Was it the amount of goals they scored? Was it the amount of attacking players in the line-up? Was is the amount of passes on the opponents half? There are multiple ways to define attacking football, but not all of them will fit in to the United value.

It's extremely important to define specific values and guidelines to follow when working for and representing United, which go into more depth than 'attacking football'.. Or giving 'youth a chance', another example The Marcus Rashford case... We all feel Mourinho should give academy and youthfull players more chances and have more faith in them, of which Rashofd was a prime example. Mourinho counters that argument with summing up the amount of games Rashford has competed in during his time and shouting some other facts... And to be fair, one could argue his arguments makes perfect sense. But still a large group of the fanbase stills feels that the opposite is true. This only means that the current United manager and the fans do not have common understanding what it means to 'give the youth and academy players a real chance and have trust in them'.

We need to be sure there is no doubt and little room for individual interpretations when we talk about and defining the United values.. Let the man who personificates the United values work them out with people he trusts and let the outcome of this be a guideline and reference for all our future decisions.

 

[Sky1981]

Since 1937, a youth team graduate has made every single match day squad for the first team.

That’s almost 4,000 consecutive games. No other club comes close to this.

As well as the Class of 92, we also had a group of youngsters called the Busby Babes.

Of course the club goes through spells of good young players and average young players, but for most of our history we’ve given them a chance.

So? 2 Golden generation in our history?

Ajax has them, Barcelona has them, and many other teams has their golden generation every once in a while. Name a youth player in Fergie 26 years that can be categorized as success apart from CO92?

 

[99withaflake]

So? 2 Golden generation in our history?

Ajax has them, Barcelona has them, and many other teams has their golden generation every once in a while. Name a youth player in Fergie 26 years that can be categorized as success apart from CO92?

No team in the world has 11 world class youth graduates playing for their first team every single season. None.

United give youth a chance. Always has done, always will do, and more so than any other team in the world, as I’ve proved above. Some are great players, some are not, but they’re given a shot because it’s what we do.

 

[Siorac]

Such myth, apart from the CO92 we don't believe in youth.

Macheda is one of those instance where it'll stick with the memories of many, but we've lost lots of young exciting player (Pique, Pogba, Morisson, etc) because we're too scared to give them game time. Fletcher/John O'shea/Wes Brown arent' exactly trusted, they started around 23-24 and if it wasn't for their patience they'd be long gone.

Pogba I'll give you, that was a mistake.

Morrison? He's hardly set the world alight since he left... he's not cut out for top level football and not because of lack of talent.

Pique... come on now. He got some chances but he happened to have one of the best CB pairings of all time ahead of him. At Barcelona, he got to be instant first choice for his boyhood club. That's not something we could have realistically competed with.

 

[POF]

I was thinking about this last night watching us play Juventus. Have we lost sight of our values and identity as a club?

It's something Fergie would mention from time to time that the team must play in a way that is demanded by the values and identity of Manchester United.

So what are they?

I'm thinking things like:
- courage
- adventure
- taking risks
- entertaining
- never say die attitude
- trusting in youth and defending them to the hilt

How many of those values are on show in the way we play now and under the last two managers?

If we were playing to those values we would have been on the front foot from the get go last night, putting Juve under pressure all over the pitch, chasing them down, taking risks going forward, getting the crowd behind us.

I see a fundamental mismatch between the managers we are choosing and the values this club is built on. And perhaps more worryingly, I'm wondering if those values are being nurtured by those who run the club now. Do the Glazers and Woodward get it? Fergie and Sir Bobby are on the board and surely do get it but they're not the ones calling the shots these days.

Until we start making decisions that align with our values and stop going against the grain of the club's identity, I worry that our current struggles will only continue.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

I think the values you have listed are probably bang on but the issue is that they were Fergie's values and not the club's. When so much of how the club operates depends on who the manager is and there is no continuity in the manager position (personnel or style), it is very hard for the team to have consistent values.

Just before he retired, Fergie commented often about getting the Class of 92 into official positions at the club to continue that culture. It wasn't a bad idea but you could tell the higher ups at the club wanted none of it.

To be honest, the main value in the club during Fergie's tenure was winning mentality. It was amazing how quickly that left the club under Moyes.

 

[99withaflake]

Pogba I'll give you, that was a mistake.

Morrison? He's hardly set the world alight since he left... he's not cut out for top level football and not because of lack of talent.

Pique... come on now. He got some chances but he happened to have one of the best CB pairings of all time ahead of him. At Barcelona, he got to be instant first choice for his boyhood club. That's not something we could have realistically competed with.

Exactly. When we’ve given McTominay, Lingard, Janazzi, Welbeck etc game time, lots of people want them out of the team because they’re not good enough. A similar thing is happening now with Rashford.

 

[Sky1981]

Pogba I'll give you, that was a mistake.

Morrison? He's hardly set the world alight since he left... he's not cut out for top level football and not because of lack of talent.

Pique... come on now. He got some chances but he happened to have one of the best CB pairings of all time ahead of him. At Barcelona, he got to be instant first choice for his boyhood club. That's not something we could have realistically competed with.

Then, who's our prominent youth product over the years? Apart from the co92?

 

[Sky1981]

No team in the world has 11 world class youth graduates playing for their first team every single season. None.

United give youth a chance. Always has done, always will do, and more so than any other team in the world, as I’ve proved above. Some are great players, some are not, but they’re given a shot because it’s what we do.

Who's our prominent youth product apart from co92? The best of the lot was Fletcher, and that's pretty grim.

More so than any other team in the world???? You're having a laugh, better than Ajax? Porto? Benfica? Juventus? Milan? Barcelona? Bayern?

 

[Siorac]

Then, who's our prominent youth product over the years? Apart from the co92?

Having faith in youth and having prominent youth products in the first team are very different things. We always give chances to youth but we haven't been producing top quality, for whatever reasons.

 

[Sky1981]

Having faith in youth and having prominent youth products in the first team are very different things. We always give chances to youth but we haven't been producing top quality, for whatever reasons.

Oh.. chances, ok. How many apps do we give out to morisson/pogba/pique/januzaj/john curtis/macheda and the gang before they're shipped out for being no good? Do we persist with giving them chances after chances?

 

[Siorac]

Oh.. chances, ok. How many apps do we give out to morisson/pogba/pique/januzaj/john curtis/macheda and the gang before they're shipped out for being no good? Do we persist with giving them chances after chances?

Piqué again? We've been over this.

Januzaj actually played 63 games for United, that's not exactly an appearance here and there.

John Curtis? What now? You do understand that having faith in youth is not equal to giving every single youth player all the chances in the world? Kieran Richardson got 81 games for United. Macheda played 36 games... again, a decent amount for someone who is now at fecking Novara and is clearly not a top level player.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, honestly. If the point is that we do not produce a Scholes every season then sure, you are right about that but we all know that. But the idea that we don't give chances to young players is preposterous. Hell, even Mourinho is persisting with Rashford even though he's been underwhelming at best for a long, long time now.

 

[Sky1981]

Piqué again? We've been over this.

Januzaj actually played 63 games for United, that's not exactly an appearance here and there.

John Curtis? What now? You do understand that having faith in youth is not equal to giving every single youth player all the chances in the world? Kieran Richardson got 81 games for United. Macheda played 36 games... again, a decent amount for someone who is now at fecking Novara and is clearly not a top level player.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, honestly. If the point is that we do not produce a Scholes every season then sure, you are right about that but we all know that. But the idea that we don't give chances to young players is preposterous. Hell, even Mourinho is persisting with Rashford even though he's been underwhelming at best for a long, long time now.

We do give youngster a chance, we do take pride in our academies, but far from "- trusting in youth and defending them to the hilt"

 

[99withaflake]

To those questioning whether Youth is one of our values,

Here is a list of players who have played for the academy and then made more than 50 appearances for the first team:

• Arthur Albiston
• John Aston Sr.
• David Beckham
• George Best
• Clayton Blackmore
• Jackie Blanchflower
• Shay Brennan
• Wes Brown
• Francis Burns
• Nicky Butt
• Roger Byrne
• Johnny Carey
• Bobby Charlton
• Tom Cleverley
• Mike Duxbury
• Duncan Edwards
• Jonny Evans
• Darren Fletcher
• Bill Foulkes
• Ryan Giggs
• Johnny Giles
• Brian Greenhoff
• Mark Hughes
• Adnan Januzaj
• Brian Kidd
• David McCreery
• Wilf McGuinness
• Sammy McIlroy
• Johnny Morris
• Gary Neville
• Phil Neville
• Jimmy Nicholl
• Jimmy Nicholson
• John O'Shea
• Stan Pearson
• David Pegg
• David Sadler
• Paul Scholes
• Nobby Stiles
• Dennis Viollet
• Danny Welbeck
• Billy Whelan
• Norman Whiteside

Here is a list of players who came through the academy, had decent enough careers, but we either didn't give them a game or we decided they weren't good enough before they hit 50 appearances:

• Ray Baartz
• Phil Bardsley
• Mark Bosnich
• Robbie Brady
• Fraizer Campbell
• Craig Cathcart
• James Chester
• Hugh Curran
• Danny Drinkwater
• Eamon Dunphy
• Magnus Wolff Eikrem
• Corry Evans
• Darron Gibson
• Keith Gillespie
• Don Givens
• Shaun Goater
• David Healy
• Tom Heaton
• Danny Higginbotham
• David Johnson
• Michael Keane
• Joshua King
• Jon Macken
• Paddy McNair
• Paul McShane
• Alan McLoughlin
• Philip Mulryne
• Colin Murdock
• Peter O'Sullivan
• Anthony Pilkington
• Gerard Piqué
• David Platt
• Paul Pogba
• Kieran Richardson
• Jimmy Rimmer
• Jonny Rödlund
• Giuseppe Rossi
• Robbie Savage
• Jackie Scott
• Ryan Shawcross
• Paddy Sloan
• Jonathan Spector
• Michael Stewart
• Marc Wilson
• Ron-Robert Zieler

In over 100 years, we have made 2 or 3 big mistakes by letting youngsters go too early (recently Paul Pogba) but how many of the above do we really think would have gone on to become legends of the club? How many proved they were world class after they left us? Not many.

At the moment, here are some of the players in our squad who have come through the academy:

• Jesse Lingard (89 apps)
• Scott McTominay (19 apps)
• Andreas Pereira (9 apps)
• Marcus Rashford (132 apps)

As you can see, we're still giving our youngsters opportunities, with Jesse and Marcus having plenty of game time.

Since 1937, a youth team graduate has made every single match day squad for the first team. Almost 4,000 consecutive games. That’s absolutely ridiculous.

Two of the world’s most famous groups of young players, the Class of 92 and the Busby Babes, both played for our club.

And as you can see in the list at the top, we've produced plenty more great players and fans favourites.

I can’t be bothered to keep going, and I doubt anyone has read this far, but if you have, you’ll understand that although the standard of young players varies year by year, throughout our history we've been very good at giving them opportunities. It's what Manchester United is all about and is one of our key values.

@Sky1981 @Siorac

 

[RooneyLegend]

Was it "OUR" value? Or was it just romanticism about the club we support?

Like... courage/adventure/taking risk are all subjective speaking, you can create this sort of value out of every footballing club. Attacking exciting football? Says who? Barcelona/Madrid are also an attacking club, you don't see them bragging about "Attacking" as one of their unique value.

By all means fans would find romantic notions about the club they support, fair play, but let's not rewrite history as if we're such a unique club with unique values.

Its hard to take posters seriously who dont believe that the club is about attacking football, what teams were you watching?