What happened to creating a style of play?

[romufc]

I just don't think he has a proper philosophy. He talks in cliches, but whatever buzzword he throws isn't visible on the pitch.

I just don't think we have any obvious replacement either. Maybe Allegri? But he's another who plays negative football. I don't know what to make of our state right now, like Keane said last night 'it makes your head spin'!

I would not take Allegri. Not saying he is the choice but look at how Norwich play, they are all confident on the ball and can pass a football and break the press.

Now, when you increase quality to the United level these players should be able to pass the ball quickly. that is the problem we have, we pass the ball as if we are playing a friendly..

We go a goal down or get pegged back and start playing direct football.

 

[Enigma_87]

I was in the Ole camp and I am not starting to turn. It is clear and obvious Ole is completely out of his depth at United.

We can all say he has not been supported, squad depth etc but it was his choice to send both Lukaku and Sanchez away.

The team can lack quality but they should never lack application, that is what we keep seing from this United team. How are you expecting to break ANY team when you taken 5 touches on the ball get to their final third and pump the ball into the box with no one capable of heading the ball? There is no clever play, no direction.

Even pressing football, do we actually press? We sat back V West Ham let Noble have the ball outside our penalty box for so long.

The main reason why I want him out is not the results rather than the way we play. I’ve been asking a countless amount of times what his actual style appears to be and no one seems to give more than 1-2 liners. Going forward means we have to instill a style that would suit managers that we are going to hire in the future, players that we will buy and will be useful for managers in the future.

At the moment we don’t have that. Dare to say we are looking less and less potent in attack with every game.

It’s pretty easy for some of the mid- lower sides to set up against us - give us the ball, press out midfielders and counter attack. We have no play B.

I’m not sure it has been mentioned but have we ever turned around a game under him? As son the opposition scores we are devoid of ideas.

Just look at Nagelsmann - very inexperienced, yet you can easily see that he’s much more astute tactically already than Ole.

 

[Amerifan]

You can’t implement an attractive, attacking style of play if you don’t have the players, it’s as simple as that

The people comparing us to teams like Bournemouth don’t actually watch teams like Bournemouth regularly

It’s different being Utd, the onus is on us to have the ball and on us to break teams down - we’re not good enough to do that

Spot on.

 

[Enigma_87]

You can’t implement an attractive, attacking style of play if you don’t have the players, it’s as simple as that

The people comparing us to teams like Bournemouth don’t actually watch teams like Bournemouth regularly

It’s different being Utd, the onus is on us to have the ball and on us to break teams down - we’re not good enough to do that

Not true really. You can’t implement a successful one in terms of results if you don’t have the right players but a style you can implement right away - just look at how Klopp and Pep teams looked straight away.

 

[romufc]

The main reason why I want him out is not the results rather than the way we play. I’ve been asking a countless amount of times what his actual style appears to be and no one seems to give more than 1-2 liners. Going forward means we have to instill a style that would suit managers that we are going to hire in the future, players that we will buy and will be useful for managers in the future.

At the moment we don’t have that. Dare to say we are looking less and less potent in attack with every game.

It’s pretty easy for some of the mid- lower sides to set up against us - give us the ball, press out midfielders and counter attack. We have no play B.

I’m not sure it has been mentioned but have we ever turned around a game under him? As son the opposition scores we are devoid of ideas.

Just look at Nagelsmann - very inexperienced, yet you can easily see that he’s much more astute tactically already than Ole.

Yes, to be honest I admit I have been one of them who thought Ole was developing a style of high press counter attack and then possession and fast passing however; last few weeks our attack has looked worse by the minute.

Is it just the mid-lower sides? Against Astana we could have lost that game with the way they set up. The reason we are so easy to counter against is the positions we lose the ball where we have kept the ball in pass pass pass bore the fans to death get to the final third and players realise OH.. what do I do now? Nothing take too long get nabbed and its 4 v 4 or something.

Exactly, it is not all about experience, you can tell Ole is out of his depth.

Lastly, we can all also blame the squad depth but the depth is not good enough to compete V the top 2 but if people tell me that the 1st 11 is not good enough to compete V Palace, Wolves, West Ham then you are wrong. We should be winning these games.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Impacted by having to play a midfield three of mata, matic and McT maybe?

Exactly. With Mata up front and Matic in mid you don't have the players needed for that. The squad is very thin.

 

[Handré1990]

I agree, it’s a good question. It’s only been done in very isolated parts of games, and so doesn’t look like a styøe we’re going for. More like a tool in our toolbox, a blunt one at that.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yes, to be honest I admit I have been one of them who thought Ole was developing a style of high press counter attack and then possession and fast passing however; last few weeks our attack has looked worse by the minute.

Is it just the mid-lower sides? Against Astana we could have lost that game with the way they set up. The reason we are so easy to counter against is the positions we lose the ball where we have kept the ball in pass pass pass bore the fans to death get to the final third and players realise OH.. what do I do now? Nothing take too long get nabbed and its 4 v 4 or something.

Exactly, it is not all about experience, you can tell Ole is out of his depth.

Lastly, we can all also blame the squad depth but the depth is not good enough to compete V the top 2 but if people tell me that the 1st 11 is not good enough to compete V Palace, Wolves, West Ham then you are wrong. We should be winning these games.

Agreed with all said above. On a side note I expect us to do better against Arsenal because we have good record against them and perhaps more confidence. We can frustrate them and will be a more open game which means we will get more chances going forward.

 

[romufc]

Agreed with all said above. On a side note I expect us to do better against Arsenal because we have good record against them and perhaps more confidence. We can frustrate them and will be a more open game which means we will get more chances going forward.

Well lose and you are 6 points behind Arsenal this early on. So that is almost a must win game because 2 weeks later Liverpool will beat us at OT so imagine being 9 points behind.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

What happened to the high press style we were reportedly training on during pre season? What’s worse is that there’s still absolutely no movement in the attacking 3rd which has been plaguing this team for the last 6 years. Why are we not working on any of this?

Who said we are not?

The issue is when overly slow players like Mata and Matic start together. They are death to playing that way.

 

[FireballXL5]

That does pose the question, why do we have 'overly slow players' in the squad at all? I honestly cannot figure out what the hell we're trying to do during games, apart from hoping for the best.

 

[Solius]

We did all that work over the summer apparently so we could become a pressing team and it has basically been non-existent since the Chelsea game.

 

[VP89]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Odd tweet. We looked shite even with them playing at times. Just go back to the Palace game for example.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Bingo.

Klopp and Pep were afforded time, not sure Ole will be.

It was crystal clear what klopp and pep were trying to do with the teams. They defined a style of play when they first came in and then adde the 'right' players. Results in the first season was not great but there was fundamentals being worked upon. Once basics are set it is very easy for new players to slot in because the role are defined. We've had 3 different mangers ( ignoring moyes) and none of them had a set 11 or a style of play that was defined! so yeah time would not have solved anything!

 

[Cockney Phil]

Without a coherent and functioning spine we can’t create a style of play.

We have no structure to build on and the injuries/illness expose our overall frailty.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Nobody is disputing that. What I am disputing is the suggestion that everything was sunshine and roses for both of them and there weren't any growing pains whatsoever as they built towards their style.

Whatever we think about Ole's capacity to eventually get it right, Klopp and Pep provide some evidence that having a little bit of patience if things don't immediately become excellent can be worthwhile.

You cannot and should not put ole under the same category as Pep and Klopp and there in lies your illusion

 

[NinjaFletch]

You cannot and should not put ole under the same category as Pep and Klopp and there in lies your illusion

Well good job I didn't then isn't it?

 

[finneh]

This is my concern too. If you have a system that involves a high press, playing out from the back and also quick counter attacks... If a couple of injuries results in you abandoning the entire system then it's not really a system at all.

Worse than that it undermines things because it takes months of sticking to a system to begin to master it, so abandoning it at the first sign of adversity means you're never going to excel.

If by Xmas of Pep's first year he decided to blow the bank on Lukaku and tell Bravo to lump it forward into the channel... Do you think they'd be hitting 95+ points a season now? Of course not.

It's also counter productive from a support point of view. If we'd tried this style the last 4-5 games and had the same results at least we'd be able to say "these players aren't capable of a progressive style". Instead we believe the manager hasn't got a clue.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Well good job I didn't then isn't it?

well you quoted Pep and Klopp getting time and implied ole needs that too so the assumption that you had a comparative measure is not wrong right?

 

[sparx99]

As someone else has pointed out how can we play the high press with the lack of pace that both Maguire and Lindelof have? And on top of that the lack of pace in midfield as well. Shaw isn’t exactly quick either.

And this comes back to if Maguire lacks pace and Solskjaer wants to play the high press why buy him, because he’s English? The targeting of players has been an issue since Ferguson retired. Even under Jose signing Micky for example and then realises he doesn’t fit in any system. Buying Pogba for a midfield two when he lacks defensive qualities to be in a 2 man midfield. Signing James when we already have options on the left but no right wingers. It’s obvious stuff and people being paid millions can’t seem to spot it.

To be fair even if Maguire lacks pace he could be paired with Tuanzebe who could cover behind. A lot of defenders use their reading of the game to cover their lack of pace as well.

 

[Jericholyte2]

When your tactical approach is based on relying on having one creative midfielder and one natural finisher, and then the two both get injured at the same time, the tactical plan goes out of the window.

Imagine if City only had David Silva and Aguero surrounded by mediocrity, then both got injured at the same time.

 

[SupaFella]

Imho managers like Guardiola and Klopp just don't sign for any random team that can throw the money, they also look at the players they have and if that fits their purpose, so usually it only requires few transfers for them to mould the team to what they prefer. City was fit for Pep, iirc even simply the presence of KDB played a important part in Pep's choice and he also kept much of city's key players. City's style was not that distant from Pep's style, Pep just made it better. Doesn't seem to hard to recognise what the style of city is, or indeed that of Klopp.

2 years ago when United's performance was going down i was wondering what the style of United was, i hoped to get the answer here but apparently many of the fans have the same question. Optimally i think United would do like city and buils some foundation principled on a unique style that has competitive merrit so they can build a team that once roughly completed can perform practicly on auto pilot for the next 5 to 10 years. One can see that city had layed a foundation with Pep that could last for years. I guess it requires long term planning and some actual genuine vision on "the science of football" from the top. I think the typical perception is that United's bussinessmen lack in terms of vision on footbal style's and tactics which idealy they should have, so that foundation isn't getting cemented but it hasn't been punished much so far in financial terms iirc.

 

[sparx99]

If I were coaching this squad right now this would be my assessment.

Strengths
- Pace up front
- individual dribblers
- solid back four
- goalkeeper

Weaknesses
- work rate of key players (Pogba and martial)
- passing
- lack of quality crossers
- decision making on fast breaks
- physicality

So in my view we lack the strength and physicality to play direct (no Lukaku or Fellaini). (Mourinho)

We lack the technical ability to play possession football. (Guardiola)

We lack the energy to play high intensity football. (Klopp)

So how can we somehow achieve more than the sum of our parts; at least until we can address the issues through transfers?

In my view there is three things we can do.

- Play 4-4-2. I know! I know! It’s out of date and a bit naive. However, we aren’t good enough at playing our way into the box and our crossing isn’t good enough either. One of the ways to negate a lack of quality is by increasing the numbers in the box.

- Low Crosses and Pullbacks. By playing 4-4-2 we could encourage overlaps on the wing. Shaw, Dalot, Wan-Bissaka, Lingard and James don’t need to pick the man out perfectly. Just work the wide areas and drill it low (like when Mata nearly scored yesterday) or pull it back from the byline towards late arriving midfield players. Low crosses also allow Rashford and Martial to use their pace to outmanoeuvre the centre backs rather than needing to win aerial battles (I don’t remember either scoring a header previously).

- Counter attack. This is the one thing we’ve seen being used slightly. Clearly with James, Rashford and Martial we have the pace to break on teams.

If everyone was fit I’d be playing something like this...

De Gea

Wan-Bissaka
Lindelof
Maguire
Shaw

Pereira/Lingard
McTominay
Pogba
James

Rashford
Martial

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

It seems from the signing of James and what we saw in the game against Chelsea and games during pre season, Ole wants to go back to two wingers getting down the flanks. Getting the ball wide and getting crosses in.

Unfortunately, we haven't really seen much of that and have struggled against teams with a low block. That, and we're yet to get a specialist right winger and creative attacking midfielder.

I doubt we'll be able to address this issue in January, but adding these two players, whilst it won't win us the title, would certainly help us out and give Ole a platform to work with.

 

[Anustart89]

It seems from the signing of James and what we saw in the game against Chelsea and games during pre season, Ole wants to go back to two wingers getting down the flanks. Getting the ball wide and getting crosses in.

Unfortunately, we haven't really seen much of that and have struggled against teams with a low block. That, and we're yet to get a specialist right winger and creative attacking midfielder.

I doubt we'll be able to address this issue in January, but adding these two players, whilst it won't win us the title, would certainly help us out and give Ole a platform to work with.

If he wants two wingers to whip crosses in, he should probably tell his strikers to try to attack a cross every now and then as well.

 

[Andersonson]

If you send this squad out for a high pressing game we could end up losing every game. We dont have the players for it.

And I involve Pogba and Martial in that statement

 

[R'hllor]

Yea you really need top class ultra mega giga players to score from a cut back once in 6 years.

 

[pocco]

I went to the AC Milan friendly in the summer and the high press had gone out of the window already by that point and hasn't been seen since really. Let's not pretend it's due to personnel. You could take Mata and Matic out yesterday, drop Lingard and Fred in and you've got 5x the energy right there.

This is a legitimate question that the OP is asking. The reasons and excuses people have come up with are weak.

 

[pocco]

If you send this squad out for a high pressing game we could end up losing every game. We dont have the players for it.

And I involve Pogba and Martial in that statement

So why say that's what we're aiming to do this season?

There are energetic alternatives to Mata and Matic that sit on the bench every week, use them if they suit your style more. Isn't that exactly what Klopp and Pep did, whilst gradually improving overall quality? The tail is wagging the dog here at the moment.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

If he wants two wingers to whip crosses in, he should probably tell his strikers to try to attack a cross every now and then as well.

I agree, and this is where I don't think Rashford is a striker, but would bag a lot from the left wing arriving into the box quite late.

Martial, whilst not a fox in the box, can do it, as we saw against Chelsea and his stint up top under Van Gaal.

 

[Andersonson]

So why say that's what we're aiming to do this season?

There are energetic alternatives to Mata and Matic that sit on the bench every week, use them if they suit your style more. Isn't that exactly what Klopp and Pep did, whilst gradually improving overall quality? The tail is wagging the dog here at the moment.

If Ole said that, I dont have a clue. I cant remember one game where we've had a high pressing game

 

[Ander herrera the warrior]

We changed from 4-3-3 last year to 4-2-3-1 this year. We can only judge if its a correct decision once we have our injured players back and line up like this.

--------------------------De Gea

Wan Bissaka----Axel-----Maguire----Shaw

-----------Mctominay-------------Fred

-----------------------------Pogba

Rashford----------------------------------James

-------------------------- Martial

 

[He'sRaldo]

What happened to the high press style we were reportedly training on during pre season? What’s worse is that there’s still absolutely no movement in the attacking 3rd which has been plaguing this team for the last 6 years. Why are we not working on any of this?

One thing I will say about this topic is it seems we as a club are playing with fear due to our players' inabilities to win individual battles. A few examples would be:


- Keeper inability to dominate outside his immediate area puts CB's under pressure.
- CB's inability to cut out attacks before they start high up the pitch or beat their opposition for pace, leading to a deeper defensive line.
- Players' in general inability to dominate opposing attackers defensively, leading to our attackers having to track back consistently.
- Attackers' inability to win dribbles against opponents which, combined with the previous point, leads to a fear of taking on opposition players 1v1.
- etc.


As you can tell, the theme is a general lack of ability which leads to apprehension and fear, and this fearful playstyle has invaded every managerial regime. We don't win individual duels as much as we should, but are expected to win every match, and this unfortunately eventually influences the decisions, and thus style, of every manager we've had. Especially so in a league like the PL where individual battles are key.


In short, I think we need better players who can win their individual duels. If you think back to all the players who have performed best for us post-Sir Alex, they have been players who have that ability. Examples? Smalling, Herrera, Zlatan, Pogba, Di Maria, Martial, etc. All these players could dominate their opponents either physically, technically, or defensively.

 

[Anustart89]

I agree, and this is where I don't think Rashford is a striker, but would bag a lot from the left wing arriving into the box quite late.

Martial, whilst not a fox in the box, can do it, as we saw against Chelsea and his stint up top under Van Gaal.

Agree. That's where I think Greenwood can have a lot of joy, if given the chance, as he's got that poacher's instinct from what I've seen of him to attack those 'tap-in positions'.

 

[He'sRaldo]

One thing I will say about this topic is it seems we as a club are playing with fear due to our players' inabilities to win individual battles. A few examples would be:


- Keeper inability to dominate outside his immediate area puts CB's under pressure.
- CB's inability to cut out attacks before they start high up the pitch or beat their opposition for pace, leading to a deeper defensive line.
- Players' in general inability to dominate opposing attackers defensively, leading to our attackers having to track back consistently.
- Attackers' inability to win dribbles against opponents which, combined with the previous point, leads to a fear of taking on opposition players 1v1.
- etc.


As you can tell, the theme is a general lack of ability which leads to apprehension and fear, and this fearful playstyle has invaded every managerial regime. We don't win individual duels as much as we should, but are expected to win every match, and this unfortunately eventually influences the decisions, and thus style, of every manager we've had. Especially so in a league like the PL where individual battles are key.


In short, I think we need better players who can win their individual duels. If you think back to all the players who have performed best for us post-Sir Alex, they have been players who have that ability. Examples? Smalling, Herrera, Zlatan, Pogba, Di Maria, Martial, etc. All these players could dominate their opponents either physically, technically, or defensively.

The players in our current team who I would say have this ability are Pogba, Martial, Dan James, and AWB. Occasionally Rashford and McTominay, and situationally, Maguire. The rest all need help when facing opponents 1v1, both defensively and offensively and, IMO, it's not enough. Regarding our recent transfers, Dan James and AWB is a good start, but we definitely need more, and we need less of the weaker players playing, starting matches, and influencing our playstyle negatively.


Interestingly, from our youth team, Gomes and Greenwood seem like they have that potential, with both of them being technically dominant. Additionally, Gomes has superb mobility, especially agility which gives him an edge, while Greenwood has two-footedness which gives him an edge as well. The only problem is they don't seem ready to compete at the level we want to be at right now, but if Ole is able to get them to improve to a good level this season, then we'd perhaps have solved a few problems straight from our academy.

 

[Slamar85]

We changed from 4-3-3 last year to 4-2-3-1 this year. We can only judge if its a correct decision once we have our injured players back and line up like this.

--------------------------De Gea

Wan Bissaka----Axel-----Maguire----Shaw

-----------Mctominay-------------Fred

-----------------------------Pogba

Rashford----------------------------------James

-------------------------- Martial

Best lineup if everyone is healthy. Although I would have Mctominay as cdm and Fred next to Pogba as roaming cm cam duo. 433 vs lesser opponents home and and away, 4231 vs Liverpool and City only , Fred Mctominay cdm duo Pogba cam.

 

[Ander herrera the warrior]

Best lineup if everyone is healthy. Although I would have Mctominay as cdm and Fred next to Pogba as roaming cm cam duo. 433 vs lesser opponents home and and away, 4231 vs Liverpool and City only , Fred Mctominay cdm duo Pogba cam.

We did quite well when we used 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 diamond last year. Alot of fans are asking why not return to that formation, why Ole insist on using 4-2-3-1. That's why I said we have see how it works when our best players are fit.