What happened to Joshua Kimmich: initially grossly overrated or a massive letdown?

[Fortitude]

This guy was penned as the next truly great German player a few years ago, and I don't think you could find many with an opposing view back then. He was also one of those truly unobtainable players that giant clubs have from time to time that no others even try and wrestle away.

He's just turned 29, however, and has hardly made the indelible impression on the game he was touted and wholly expected to. He's far from done as a player at 29, with potentially 3-4 good to great years left in him at a minimum, injuries permitting. At the same time, he is 29, and all that predestined rhetoric seems to be quite wide of the mark, so what has/is happening there?

By German standards, when saying the next great one, we're talking: Matthäus, Breitner, Magath, Schweinsteiger, Overath, Netzer, Kroos, Ballack etc. Granted, there's some offensive powerhouses thrown in there, but it's more about being par with that kind of company in his position(s), but it doesn’t seem like he ever got close despite the reputation and billing that preceded him?

If you're an avid fan of Bayern, the league and/or the NT, what has been your take on him as a player and the career he's had up to date? Has he fallen short of expectations? Finally, do you think that the best of what he has to offer has come and gone, or is there a level or two he may still go up?

 

[Ish]

Not sure what to contribute here - mostly because I really haven’t watched him week in, week out. Agreed about the massive “hype/talent” when he broke through and at the early stages of his career - which was justified IMO. Bit of a ready made Lahm replacement/regen who was equally comfortable at fullback or midfield (or possibly any other position - just an intelligent/technically excellent footballer). Just not sure if hes not lived up to them or if he’s just been terribly unlucky that his peak possibly coincided over a period when German talent/football was “on the decline”/overtaken a bit by other leagues - both domestically and at an international level (possibly one of the weakest German NT’s in my lifetime). Winning domestically with Bayern is also contributing less and less to each players legacy, versus some of the past greats IMO.

Overall though, it does seem like hell go down at least a tier (or even 2!) below some of those greats mentioned in the OP. But these are all anecdotal type comments. I haven’t watched him, his club or the NT enough, nor have I checked any stats to back this up.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Not watched him much this season, but I think most Bayern fans are tired of him being undisciplined positionally.

I think he was fantastic for Bayern's treble season, but then again, most of the team performed at an extremely high level.

 

[90 + 5min]

I still think that he is great player. For me, problem is that managers are constantly changing his position. You can't do that and expect him to deliver.

He will not be as fameous some of players opening post mentioned but that have also to do with other things.

 

[kaku06]

He is 29? I thought he is around 27. Always rated him and wanted us to sign him if we could but as the OP said he’s always been one of those unobtainable players.

 

[Oranges038]

I still think that he is great player. For me, problem is that managers are constantly changing his position. You can't do that and expect him to deliver.

He will not be as fameous some of players opening post mentioned but that have also to do with other things.

Probably also suffered because he's played like he's trying to do everything himself at times.

 

[Ekeke]

He's had 6 really good seasons.

 

[harms]

I still think that he is great player. For me, problem is that managers are constantly changing his position. You can't do that and expect him to deliver.

He will not be as fameous some of players opening post mentioned but that have also to do with other things.

He's still a very good player but it doesn't look like he'll end up as a proper great now (and at some point it looked like a certainty for him). No one's claiming that he's average.

Personally, I became a bit disenchanted with him after his COVID statements, even though it's hardly relatable to his diminished level of performances. I'd still take him at United though, mind you!

 

[HTG]

It started with his refusal to get vaccinated. Ever since he seems to be a bit off mentally. I also think his ego is seriously harming him, because he insists on playing a role that doesn’t benefit the team. He might really need a change of scenery.

 

[giorno]

He had a ~3 years spell as the world's best midfielder - with a case for being the world's best player even - before falling off over the last couple seasons

Not sure what happened but he comes across as a pretty thick moron all in all, so it might just be that

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

PSG bound.

 

[MadDogg]

Probably also suffered because he's played like he's trying to do everything himself at times.

Steven Gerrard syndrome?

 

[Offside]

Overrated as he was seen as some seamless Lahm replacement and then compared to him lots, despite him not being as good. Still watched him lots of times and thought great player.

 

[horsechoker]

Got covid and was never the same again, especially considering his stance

 

[Synco]

He had a ~3 years spell as the world's best midfielder - with a case for being the world's best player even

Not followed him quite as closely as others - but when would that have been? Even at his career high around 2020 I've not seen a claim like that.

 

[didz]

He's a long way from done, I reckon. He just looks like the kind of athlete who will go well into his thirties as a top player.

Kimmich is having an unhappy time at Bayern right now, but if he makes the right decision with his next contract I can definitely see him getting back to his best or possibly even better.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

He had a ~3 years spell as the world's best midfielder - with a case for being the world's best player even - before falling off over the last couple seasons

Not sure what happened but he comes across as a pretty thick moron all in all, so it might just be that

That is highly debatable.

 

[Semper Fudge]

That is highly debatable.

Never mind the next bit!

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Never mind the next bit!

True.

I could see him having a case for the world's best midfielder in 2019-2020(probably his best season), but in the biggest game of the season, Flick played him at RB.

After that, I don't see him having a case at all. Don't even think he'd be in my top 3 midfielders for last season and the season before that.

He has absolutely no case whatsoever as the best player in the world though.

 

[adexkola]

Any serious club would be trying to lure him out of Bayern. I'm on record saying I'd kill to have him at United.

 

[Semper Fudge]

Any serious club would be trying to lure him out of Bayern. I'm on record saying I'd kill to have him at United.

That'll be useful for the court case.

 

[adexkola]

That'll be useful for the court case.

No face, no case

 

[DWelbz19]

It started with his refusal to get vaccinated. Ever since he seems to be a bit off mentally. I also think his ego is seriously harming him, because he insists on playing a role that doesn’t benefit the team. He might really need a change of scenery.

What is that? What type of player is he?

 

[hasanejaz88]

His issue is that he's a hybrid 6 and 8 but likes to play as a 6. The simple solution to this, and one that worked for Bayern until last season when Goretzka's form started to dip with injuries, is to play a double pivot with him and another energetic midfielder. Bayern were playing very well with Kimmich and Goretzka (or Thiago) in midfield from 2019-2022, so I wouldn't agree with anyone who says they can't or couldn't play together.

The criticism he's facing is reminding of the criticism Schweinstieger and, in particular, Kroos faced in the 2010-11 season with LvG played both of them in midfield behind Muller as the CAM (despite Luis Gustavo being in the squad). LvG, in his dreams of dominating possession, played both as Tymoshuck and Gustavo were not as good on the ball but this meant Bayern were routinely caught on the break and were horrible that season. Kroos didn't have the legs or the know-how to support Schweinsteiger in defending the backline and therefore Bayern were easily counter attacked through the middle. That wasn't to say that either Schweinsteiger or Kroos were bad players or couldn't play in central midfield, but that you need to partner them with the right player to get the best out of them and be successful.

It was the same Schweinsteiger who was incredibly successful playing in central midfield for Germany but that was with Khedira, who was fantastic at covering ground and also very intelligent. They both worked around each other, with one covering the other if one went forward and also coming back to help in defense. Kroos also then went on to be successful as a CM playing with Casemiro, who is a pure number 6 and therefore it wasn't important for Kroos to contribute defensively.

It's the same Bayern have been facing since Goretzka's legs have gone and he can't support Kimmich anymore when Kimmich moves forward. So it's not that Kimmich has somehow become a poor midfielder, but rather the system Bayern are playing, with a bit of a double pivot, is not working anymore. Bayern going for a number 6 like Paulinha or Rice would work with Kimmich moving into a number 8 role, or they go for someone who can also push forward and have energy to work back into defense.

 

[Oranges038]

Steven Gerrard syndrome?

Same syndrome Bruno suffers from unfortunately.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

This guy was penned as the next truly great German player a few years ago, and I don't think you could find many with an opposing view back then. He was also one of those truly unobtainable players that giant clubs have from time to time that no others even try and wrestle away.

He's just turned 29, however, and has hardly made the indelible impression on the game he was touted and wholly expected to. He's far from done as a player at 29, with potentially 3-4 good to great years left in him at a minimum, injuries permitting. At the same time, he is 29, and all that predestined rhetoric seems to be quite wide of the mark, so what has/is happening there?

By German standards, when saying the next great one, we're talking: Matthäus, Breitner, Magath, Schweinsteiger, Overath, Netzer, Kroos, Ballack etc. Granted, there's some offensive powerhouses thrown in there, but it's more about being par with that kind of company in his position(s), but it doesn’t seem like he ever got close despite the reputation and billing that preceded him?

If you're an avid fan of Bayern, the league and/or the NT, what has been your take on him as a player and the career he's had up to date? Has he fallen short of expectations? Finally, do you think that the best of what he has to offer has come and gone, or is there a level or two he may still go up?

He is a top player. Right now at Bayern Tuchel is his problem. Before Tuchel for Bayern he has been a top 5 on thr planet player in his role. For the national team it's a personnel thing. The Germany national side doesn't have a single compatible pair of cbs current nor any truly good natural right or left backs. Nor natural cfs save for Fulkrug. Largely Rendering most of the world class quality they have every where else moot.

 

[V.O.]

It's the same Bayern have been facing since Goretzka's legs have gone and he can't support Kimmich anymore when Kimmich moves forward. So it's not that Kimmich has somehow become a poor midfielder, but rather the system Bayern are playing, with a bit of a double pivot, is not working anymore. Bayern going for a number 6 like Paulinha or Rice would work with Kimmich moving into a number 8 role, or they go for someone who can also push forward and have energy to work back into defense.

I'm surprised Kimmich partnered with Laimer to do the donkey work hasn't worked.

 

[Sir Marcus]

He had a ~3 years spell as the world's best midfielder - with a case for being the world's best player even - before falling off over the last couple seasons

Not sure what happened but he comes across as a pretty thick moron all in all, so it might just be that

Nowhere near.

 

[hasanejaz88]

I'm surprised Kimmich partnered with Laimer to do the donkey work hasn't worked.

Laimer has barely played at CM due to injury issues at RB. Ironically every match Laimer has played at CM (besides the pre-season SuperCup), Bayern have won every match with him in midfield; though none have been against great teams.

Laimer and Kimmich also haven't played a lot in CM. It's not something that has been tested but I think Laimer's lower technical ability, compared to Goretzka and Musiala, have mean he has less chances.

 

[HTG]

What is that? What type of player is he?

He insists on being some kind of a playmaking number 6. A position he doesn’t have the necessary physicality for, something he can’t compensate for otherwise. He also lacks the tactical discipline to hold his position there. Which led to a pattern for Bayern where teams would just kill us on the counter because that number 6 spot is vacant so often.
His best role would be that of an offensive minded number 8, I believe. That would fit his skills best and allow him to utilise his immense strength in breaking down the opposing defense with his clever chip balls, clever passes and crosses.

 

[HTG]

He is a top player. Right now at Bayern Tuchel is his problem. Before Tuchel for Bayern he has been a top 5 on thr planet player in his role. For the national team it's a personnel thing. The Germany national side doesn't have a single compatible pair of cbs current nor any truly good natural right or left backs. Nor natural cfs save for Fulkrug. Largely Rendering most of the world class quality they have every where else moot.

Kimmich‘s issues predate the time of Tuchel. It already started under Flick and got progressively worse ever since.

 

[Moby]

Germans overrate every single midfielder that is born there. Kai Havertz was supposed to win the ballon door

 

[CallyRed]

Never mind the next bit!

I was expecting GOAT in the next sentence

 

[AltiUn]

He's an outstanding full back but an underwhelming midfielder.

 

[BayernFan87]

Germans overrate every single midfielder that is born there. Kai Havertz was supposed to win the ballon door

Show me only one german who claimed that.

Regarding Kimmich i second that it started with Covid and him rejecting the jab. I dont know if its a physical or mental problem but he hasnt been the same since.

 

[hasanejaz88]

He insists on being some kind of a playmaking number 6. A position he doesn’t have the necessary physicality for, something he can’t compensate for otherwise. He also lacks the tactical discipline to hold his position there. Which led to a pattern for Bayern where teams would just kill us on the counter because that number 6 spot is vacant so often.
His best role would be that of an offensive minded number 8, I believe. That would fit his skills best and allow him to utilise his immense strength in breaking down the opposing defense with his clever chip balls, clever passes and crosses.

Every midfielder has issues that you find solutions to work around, no one is perfect and can play with anyone in any formation. Like I mentioned, even Schweinsteiger and Kroos, mentioned in the OP as great midfielders above Kimmich's level, were heavily criticized at times when they were playing in systems that didn't suit them.

Kimmich and Goretzka were working quite fine until last season, even against City last season both did quite well but Bayern's poor finishing was their undoing.

A lot of this rhetoric has been brought on by Tuchel, before his appointment I didn't hear of anyone even thinking Kimmich should be sold or isn't performing well.

 

[giorno]

Not followed him quite as closely as others - but when would that have been? Even at his career high around 2020 I've not seen a claim like that.

Between 2020 and 2022? I've seen plenty of such claims around that time, and by people like Michael Cox, and others serious pundits. The analytics people in particular rated him extremely highly

That is highly debatable.

Everything is if you want to. Do debate it then

Nowhere near.

So who was better? Talking midfielders, not forwards like De Bruyne

 

[Ish]

No face, no case

“Your honour, I can identify adex for you out of a lineup”

 

[hasanejaz88]

He was in the top 20 for guardians top 100 footballers in 2020 and 2021. While that is not fully indicative to ability, it does mean to say he was never rated as one of the best midfielders in the world is ridiculous.

He did drop to 41 and now 51 in the last two editions, which does reflect what has been said about his reputation dropping.

 

[mu4c_20le]

So who was better? Talking midfielders, not forwards like De Bruyne

Fabinho was comfortably better