As a 6? Yes. As a midfielder/player? you are having a laugh
What happened to Joshua Kimmich: initially grossly overrated or a massive letdown?
- Thread starter Fortitude
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Et tu, bro?“Your honour, I can identify adex for you out of a lineup”
6’s are midfielders.
What period of time are you referring to? But my answer is likely Rodri, Gundogan, Modric easily, I’d also be tempted to thrown the likes of Kroos and Fabinho in there.
He could have been an all-time great right back, instead became a very good if not great midfielder.
I think he should take a move away from bayern, he's been stagnating somewhat and perhaps a new environment will do him good.
A lot of nonsense here from people who barely saw Kimmich play. Since Nagelsmann last season he was almost a one-man midfield, because Goretzka was out injured and/or his legs are gone when fit.
There's been times when Davies or Gnabri, Sabitzer or Muller played alongide him in midfield or just purely with him alone in midfield and Tel, Sane, Gnabri, Coman, Muller, Musiala, Lewandowski and Moting in front, a lot of nonsense formations Nagelsmann and Tuchel experimented with .. like Guerreiro and Pavlovic this season shoehorned alongside him recently, even though Bayern needs a DM like Busquets, Fernandinho, Fabinho, Rodri, Casemiro, etc.
There's also Muller and Musiala who play behind the striker who is blocking another addition in midfield, for example playing 3 midfielders instead of 2.
As for his individual form, he never had a bad season at Bayern, two or three arguably top seasons, definately in top 3-5 midfielders on the planet.
In this period of division of labor and players intensely playing in expected zones, Bayern has failed miserably to replace Goretzka for 3 seasons now.
There's been times when Davies or Gnabri, Sabitzer or Muller played alongide him in midfield or just purely with him alone in midfield and Tel, Sane, Gnabri, Coman, Muller, Musiala, Lewandowski and Moting in front, a lot of nonsense formations Nagelsmann and Tuchel experimented with .. like Guerreiro and Pavlovic this season shoehorned alongside him recently, even though Bayern needs a DM like Busquets, Fernandinho, Fabinho, Rodri, Casemiro, etc.
There's also Muller and Musiala who play behind the striker who is blocking another addition in midfield, for example playing 3 midfielders instead of 2.
As for his individual form, he never had a bad season at Bayern, two or three arguably top seasons, definately in top 3-5 midfielders on the planet.
In this period of division of labor and players intensely playing in expected zones, Bayern has failed miserably to replace Goretzka for 3 seasons now.
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Et tu, bro?
Kimmich: Haha you fired.
Tuchel: Haha you RB.
Tuchel: Haha you RB.
6s are a kind of midfielder. Fabinho only brats Kimmich at bring a 6. Kimmich as a deep lying playmaker comfortably bests him in every other aspect. Whilst also being decent as a 6
LilienFan wins! (Shaokhan voice)
It's worth mentioning that you could argue Schweinsteiger, and to a lesser extent, Matthaus didn't fully establish their current reputation worldwide until their late 20s either. Especially Schweinsteiger. When there were still a bunch of active general football forums with a wide international userbase, I don't recall him starting to gain momentum (on the ones I read) in terms of being widely considered elite or world-class (far less a positional all-time great) until after the 2010 World Cup. The Bayern team that lost the 2009-10 CL final was seen as a quite weak finalist that didn't play well in most of their games, and was more associated with the teams that had recently lost widely against Zenit/Barca than with a genuine resurgence.
Not saying it was right, but I definitely remember players now seen as all-time greats like Schweinsteiger and Lahm really struggling to overcome the international perception that the '00s generation was not as talented as earlier ones, that was something only Ballack seemed to do. With the bad run of international tournament results, Kimmich is probably facing a similar thing at international level regarding this new generation of players, which he'll be expected to be a leader of by now. Though to counter that, he's benefited from the Bayern teams he's been involved in being seen as consistently strong compared to the pre-Robben/Ribery-led ones that Schweinsteiger and Lahm came through.
Looking at German football overall, i don't think he's in as good a situation as those two were when they cemented their status, but there's enough talent there that things could still change quickly. They often do when it comes to the things that push a player over the line from being seen as "just" very good/excellent into widely regarded national/international all-time greatness.
Not saying it was right, but I definitely remember players now seen as all-time greats like Schweinsteiger and Lahm really struggling to overcome the international perception that the '00s generation was not as talented as earlier ones, that was something only Ballack seemed to do. With the bad run of international tournament results, Kimmich is probably facing a similar thing at international level regarding this new generation of players, which he'll be expected to be a leader of by now. Though to counter that, he's benefited from the Bayern teams he's been involved in being seen as consistently strong compared to the pre-Robben/Ribery-led ones that Schweinsteiger and Lahm came through.
Looking at German football overall, i don't think he's in as good a situation as those two were when they cemented their status, but there's enough talent there that things could still change quickly. They often do when it comes to the things that push a player over the line from being seen as "just" very good/excellent into widely regarded national/international all-time greatness.
Kimmich is a great player. That he's criticized so much is primarily attitude-related. It seems that he's hard to coach and not really disciplined tactically. You can see that he really wants to be a leader but his ambition occasionally turns into toxicity. So far, the teams that have been built around him as one of the main players have underachieved all things considered, both at Bayern and for Germany. It becomes more and more obvious that he plays a role in that - he insists on player as a holding midfielder for Bayern but for that role, he roams too freely and abandons his position too often. I think the modern full back role that players such as Zinchenko, Cancelo, Alexander-Arnold, Grimaldo, etc. are currently playing would be ideal for him but unfortunately, he himself doesn't want to play there.
Which makes it kind of difficult to integrate him in modern midfielders. He'd be ideal as one of the two 8s in a 4-3-3 but now that most top teams are playing formations with a box midfield, there's no clear role for him. In the two advanced midfield roles, you need players with better dribbling ability, agility, etc. And for the two deeper positions, he's too attacking minded and tactically independent. It doesn't help that he has much competition in the midfield as well since Gündogan and Kroos are very similar in their skillsets but more disciplined and quite honestly simply better than him.
Maybe a change of clubs could help him as his reputation at Bayern might stand in his way a bit.
Which makes it kind of difficult to integrate him in modern midfielders. He'd be ideal as one of the two 8s in a 4-3-3 but now that most top teams are playing formations with a box midfield, there's no clear role for him. In the two advanced midfield roles, you need players with better dribbling ability, agility, etc. And for the two deeper positions, he's too attacking minded and tactically independent. It doesn't help that he has much competition in the midfield as well since Gündogan and Kroos are very similar in their skillsets but more disciplined and quite honestly simply better than him.
Maybe a change of clubs could help him as his reputation at Bayern might stand in his way a bit.
Kinda like Saul at Athletico, I just don't see it.
I still find it unbelievable that Kimmich is being blamed for every issue at Bayern and Germany.
The same people will comment on other pretty clear problems at Bayern, such as their lack of cover at CB and full back, wingers not playing upto form, but in the end it's all Kimmich's fault they aren't playing well. Hell, people are also saying it hasn't been as bad a season for Bayern, just that Leverkusen have been fantastic, but somehow Kimmich is making them underperform
Same with Germany, glaring issues at full back, no striker, no consistent formation yet its Kimmich's fault.
It's a clear case of scapegoating, being brought about primarily by Tuchel.
The same people will comment on other pretty clear problems at Bayern, such as their lack of cover at CB and full back, wingers not playing upto form, but in the end it's all Kimmich's fault they aren't playing well. Hell, people are also saying it hasn't been as bad a season for Bayern, just that Leverkusen have been fantastic, but somehow Kimmich is making them underperform
Same with Germany, glaring issues at full back, no striker, no consistent formation yet its Kimmich's fault.
It's a clear case of scapegoating, being brought about primarily by Tuchel.
I agree with you that he's scapegoated to an extent since he's still one of Bayern's best players but the criticism can still be justified in general. After all, Tuchel might have his mistakes but his expertise in tactics is more or less universally accepted. He didn't demand a holding midfielder just because he dislikes Kimmich. And it is also clear that Bayern much more often loses the control over games since Thiago left. Even in Flick's second season, they seemedmuch more vulnerable and it got even worse under Nagelsann. Tuchel stabilized them to an extent but they are still nowhere near as dominant as they used to be. And establishing control is primarily the job of the CMs.I still find it unbelievable that Kimmich is being blamed for every issue at Bayern and Germany.
The same people will comment on other pretty clear problems at Bayern, such as their lack of cover at CB and full back, wingers not playing upto form, but in the end it's all Kimmich's fault they aren't playing well. Hell, people are also saying it hasn't been as bad a season for Bayern, just that Leverkusen have been fantastic, but somehow Kimmich is making them underperform
Same with Germany, glaring issues at full back, no striker, no consistent formation yet its Kimmich's fault.
It's a clear case of scapegoating, being brought about primarily by Tuchel.
But I would generally be fine with Kimmich as a CM for Germany as well. Thing is, I think that Kroos and Gündogan are even better than him and the only way to have all three of them in the team is by playing Kimmich as a RB. And I believe that this role could be even better for him since he can has generally more positional freedom there.
I mean I think this thread is a bit hyperbole. Kimmich was comfortably world class for a while and a very versatile player, but without Goretzka being his best self anymore Kimmich gets exposed defensively a bit. His "legend" also isn't helped by Germany's crap international performances post 2014 either, as all of those other legends you named had great success for their country as well as their clubs. Is he an all timer? Probably not. But he was very good to great for a solid amount of time and won a treble, it's not like he's a disappointment.
He was an extremely capable, polivalent player with a great right foot, positioning and sense of timing. I don't think he was overrated. He's not been the same since covid for sure.
He's a good player that needs to focus on creating chances, but isn't great at controlling games. In a pressing team with a high line, he can push up without emptying the midfield because everyone stays up high, and he can also create stuff that way. The problem is, the tactically inept moron calling himself his coach orders him to stay back and Goretzka, who's a much worse technician and passer, to push forward, which brings out the worst out of both players. And he only plays Pavlovic when he's forced to. If he made Pavlovic stay back and Kimmich push forward, Kimmich would have looked far better.
The problem with a lot of modern football discourse is that if you aren't one of the best players in the world, you are shite.
The Messi v Ronaldo crap has broken people's brains.
Haven't seen him lately, but from the descriptions of the german posters on here, it does seem like he's too attacking for the team to do well at United, where we need some garbageman of a DMC that makes others perform better overall and have more balance. We already have Bruno who's wasteful with the ball, and control is what we need more than another player in the Bruno/McTominay mould. If he'd be cool with RB that's a different thing however.
Whenever I see him he reminds me of an older Scholes. Whenever I catch them he looks really good to me. He's not Modric or Xavi, but next level down. Feels like Munich's problems are elsewhere.