What midfielder is suited to partner Bruno in the double pivot?

Cnaiür urs Skiötha said:
As much as I like Bruno this discussion shows we would have been better off with getting the money and letting him go. He is not quick and mobile enough for playing as a 10 in the system. And in a midfield 2 he will get into trouble. Part of why we had such an awful season was that Amorim tried to use players in positions where they don’t fit which led to awful errors. Now with Bruno staying and keeping the armband he will continue being a starter with the team built around him instead of sticking to the best players on each position.

For me the best combination based on the players we got as of today is Ugarte and Casemiro behind Cunha and Amad (or maybe Mount if he improves).
Click to expand...
The team isn't being built around Bruno. The players are being shoehorned into the only formation Amorim knows. Bruno has shown he can perform just as effectively as one of the deeper midfielders as well as one of the two number 10s. Having more goalscorers on the pitch makes sense, which is why Bruno probably won't take up one of the number 10 positions too often.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
I think it would probably be easier to just make Bruno better at the position. Because there is no one player suited to partner him in the midfield the way he plays.

It’s a big weakness if he continues to play the role as he has, and unless we change to a 3 in midfield there is no fix other than Bruno himself improving on his reading of the game, his positional sense and his general ability to pass and see space.

Too often he and Cas were too far apart and he wouldn’t cover the spaces he is supposed to be so there are many games where there are just massive holes or areas of space for teams to exploit.

Ideally he wouldn’t be in the midfield duo but yeah, it’s really the only place for him as he isn’t really suited to how the 10’s operate in this system. So it’s an issue. We just have to fit him in to positions his skill set doesn’t really suit.
Click to expand...
That’s easier said than done. Bruno doesn’t think nor move like a deeper midfielder, which is why he gets caught out in the position so frequently. His instinctive game is that of an attacking midfielder who is used to being the final stop before the ball is used decisively, like De Bruyne. Bruno is not a natural at high levels of patience and ball retention and he doesn’t really go in for the death by a thousand cuts method most great CM’s can methodically pull off as and when they need or want to. He also doesn’t have the positional awareness of natural deeper central midfielders. He’s essentially being forced into something that doesn’t come naturally to him when he plays that responsible CM role. Sure it can work out from time to time, but equally, it’s a disaster waiting to happen against organised teams with quality midfielders who are looking to exploit any lack of know how in their domain.

Bruno also really isn’t used to covering and switching duties with partners in midfield - knowing, intrinsically, what to do to best aid a defensive teammate under the cosh. When things are going well, these things are not exposed, but when a game is in real disarray, the whole defensive midfield shape collapses because the spaces natural deeper CM’s occupy are not being tended to. You really need a special player to be able to cover so many of these issues whilst still being able to play a good game of their own.

I think Bruno’s lack of quick feet and dribbling ability also compounds the worries in that area of midfield as he cannot twist and turn and make the momentary space for himself that natural CM’s do without a moment of thought or hesitation.
 
Frank Grimes said:
Bruno is not capable of playing in a midfield two. I could see Mbeumo being utilised as a 9 with Cunha and Bruno behind.
Click to expand...
It would be odd to buy a player for such big money and not play him in the position he has always played though. Not saying it’s not a decent shout but if that’s the thinking, we might as well use the Mbeumo money on a striker and not go for him
 
Bruno's been great in the double pivot a number of times this season. Plenty of those games we didn't win because we can't score any fecking goals.

Wharton for me, but I've not watched Baleba who everyone else seems to fancy. Have a few Palace supporting mates and they worship the kid. All think he'll end up all-conquering as City's Rodri replacement.
 
hellhunter said:
He played there at Anfield and at the Etihad
Click to expand...
He's not good at it. Shat the bed in Europa final, worst player on the pitch. Gives away the ball way too much which makes it impossible for our wingbacks.

He played deeper lots of times last season but it wasn't a success, cherry picking 2 games where we were largely dominated anyway doesn't change that.

Personally I would have moved him on.
 
No one will make up for his lack of discipline in the position. We needed 2 new CMs really but now will continue to have a weakness with him playing there.
 
Frank Grimes said:
He's not good at it. Shat the bed in Europa final, worst player on the pitch. Gives away the ball way too much which makes it impossible for our wingbacks.

He played deeper lots of times last season but it wasn't a success, cherry picking 2 games where we were largely dominated anyway doesn't change that.

Personally I would have moved him on.
Click to expand...
But... you also cherry picked 1 game in your previous paragraph?
 
Wharton and Baleba both look the real deal but Brighton and Palace unlikely to sell. Ederson is probably the best option after that. One option not mentioned is João Palhinha struggled to get games at Bayern. Was very good at Fulham and played for Amorim at sporting. Wonder if we could get a loan or cheap deal ?
 
The-Mezzala said:
Wharton and Baleba both look the real deal but Brighton and Palace unlikely to sell. Ederson is probably the best option after that. One option not mentioned is João Palhinha struggled to get games at Bayern. Was very good at Fulham and played for Amorim at sporting. Wonder if we could get a loan or cheap deal ?
Click to expand...
Very interesting shout that one. Especially if as you say the option of a loan (with an option to make permanent) was there.
 
Frank Grimes said:
He's not good at it. Shat the bed in Europa final, worst player on the pitch. Gives away the ball way too much which makes it impossible for our wingbacks.

He played deeper lots of times last season but it wasn't a success, cherry picking 2 games where we were largely dominated anyway doesn't change that.

Personally I would have moved him on.
Click to expand...
He played there in the Europa league a fair bit too and I think we mostly looked a better team when he did. Suddenly the formation looked a lot more attacking at any rate with Bruno in there.

Point taken about the Europa League final though.
 
Frank Grimes said:
He's not good at it. Shat the bed in Europa final, worst player on the pitch. Gives away the ball way too much which makes it impossible for our wingbacks.

He played deeper lots of times last season but it wasn't a success, cherry picking 2 games where we were largely dominated anyway doesn't change that.

Personally I would have moved him on.
Click to expand...
Spot on. Gives the ball away too much. Either with the Hollywood effort ( can’t help himself) or errant 5m pass. The latter is a killer when he’s playing deep.
 
Bit of a weird one for me this. I absolutely love Bruno but I was getting used to the idea of selling him for 100m and brining in Baleba to partner Kobe which would have been a great CB central pairing for years. Now with this new update Bruno is staying and will likely play in midfield given we’re signing Mbuemo, I’m already now thinking we’re gonna be disjointed again next season
 
Frank Grimes said:
Yes and went on to explain that there were many more where he was rubbish. Comprehension is tough.
Click to expand...
Such as?

He's been our only standout player under Amorim. Some of his performances these past few months have been excellent, made all the more impressive by the lack of quality teammates surrounding him, and a manager/ownership who have tried to implement a system mid-season where we were inevitably going to suffer regression for months.
 
The last two seasons, Bruno has been really poor in the first half of the season. By January we are far adrift in the PL table and out of the chase for top four, the rest of the team lets their heads drop and then comes the saviour Bruno who starts playing very well once our season is already done.

His good performances in CM when nothing is on the line is very different from when we actually need weekly consistent performances.

People think the EL final disaster is overstated but it’s no surprise when there was so much on the line he had a turgid performance in CM.

A player who can play well as a CM sometimes is not a CM.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
Such as?

He's been our only standout player under Amorim. Some of his performances these past few months have been excellent, made all the more impressive by the lack of quality teammates surrounding him, and a manager/ownership who have tried to implement a system mid-season where we were inevitably going to suffer regression for months.
Click to expand...
And amad, and yoro.
 
The-Mezzala said:
Wharton and Baleba both look the real deal but Brighton and Palace unlikely to sell. Ederson is probably the best option after that. One option not mentioned is João Palhinha struggled to get games at Bayern. Was very good at Fulham and played for Amorim at sporting. Wonder if we could get a loan or cheap deal ?
Click to expand...
Limited players aren't of much use to sides chasing the biggest prizes in football. Palhinha is a player for an underdog team who are expecting to defend like honey badgers and hang on in games, not sides where the onus is on passing the ball proactively and through defensive lines time and time and time again. Bayern are too big a club to ever play like the underdog - win or lose, they will go out sticking to their principles, and so with Palihinha essentially going there and being exposed as too limited to function, he's not going to get playing time.

Palhinha is even more limited than Ugarte and definitely isn't a player you'd look to for constructive build up play from deep. Of all the bigger name clubs in Europe, you won't see a player like Palhinha, and even Bayern would have bought him expecting him to step up, which he couldn't do.

We need some quality footballers; whoever we get in needs to be skilled and able on both sides of the ball.
 
Nicolò Rovella would be a high-upside gamble (no PL experience) with a release clause of €50m. His Serie A metrics are Wharton-like: highly accurate passing, progressive carries, and intuitive defensive reading of the game, able to control play from deep and break things up. The kind of midfield profile we should be cultivating, able to dictate tempo and contribute in all phases.
 
Joao Neves should have been it. Now that he's unavailable, we should get Hugo Larsson or Ardon Jashari. Two talents that are going to be called world class in the next few years.I reckon Baleba and Wharton would cost north of 80m, so I would rule them out.
 
Ugarte. He's of a suitable ilk, but probably in need of upgrading.

Most of you seem mad to me. I reckon Fernandes just had the best season since his initial 18 or so months here. He demonstrated that not only can he be effective in a deeper position, but that that is now his best role. He genuinely excelled, to the point where you would have to be looking at some of the very best around to find an upgrade for him there.

Bruno has also shown that within that deeper area, he can thrive both as the more attacking centre mid/ no.8 alongside a holder, and as the deepest, anchoring player/ no.6. The more licence or responsibility he has to get forward, the more he can provide verticality and off the ball running as well as telling final third contributions. The more licence or responsibility he has to pick up the ball deeper, the more he can progress the play with his passing.

He is versatile. Partner him with a more destructive player, but said player could be either a no.6 or a no.8, and could be either limited or well-balanced.
 
Marwood said:
Not sure who exactly but prioritise a ball player in CM rather than an athlete. We need to learn that lesson as a club. We must have learned that lesson by now.

Fill the CB, wing back and striker roles with athletes.

And the vast majority of players can get around the pitch fine now anyway. Whoever the ball player is he'll get through plenty of work as well.
Click to expand...
Don’t the majority of top, successful premier league sides have a powerful, athletic midfielder that plays most games, these days? Granted they have to be good at football too, but it does seem to be important.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
An athletic Midfielder has always been mentioned as a priority for this window and with Bruno now staying, all signs point to him playing in the double pivot. I don’t think we have a midfielder in the club with the legs or positional discipline to partner Bruno there, so who do you suggest we get?
Click to expand...
Most likely he will, but in certain matches he may still be number 10. The new signing, plus the upcoming one can both play as a striker don’t forget.
 
Fortitude said:
That’s easier said than done. Bruno doesn’t think nor move like a deeper midfielder, which is why he gets caught out in the position so frequently. His instinctive game is that of an attacking midfielder who is used to being the final stop before the ball is used decisively, like De Bruyne. Bruno is not a natural at high levels of patience and ball retention and he doesn’t really go in for the death by a thousand cuts method most great CM’s can methodically pull off as and when they need or want to. He also doesn’t have the positional awareness of natural deeper central midfielders. He’s essentially being forced into something that doesn’t come naturally to him when he plays that responsible CM role. Sure it can work out from time to time, but equally, it’s a disaster waiting to happen against organised teams with quality midfielders who are looking to exploit any lack of know how in their domain.

Bruno also really isn’t used to covering and switching duties with partners in midfield - knowing, intrinsically, what to do to best aid a defensive teammate under the cosh. When things are going well, these things are not exposed, but when a game is in real disarray, the whole defensive midfield shape collapses because the spaces natural deeper CM’s occupy are not being tended to. You really need a special player to be able to cover so many of these issues whilst still being able to play a good game of their own.

I think Bruno’s lack of quick feet and dribbling ability also compounds the worries in that area of midfield as he cannot twist and turn and make the momentary space for himself that natural CM’s do without a moment of thought or hesitation.
Click to expand...
So really the conclusion is there is no place for Bruno in the system, and there is no midfielder in the world that can cover him, so the best thing to do is sell him or change the system to accommodate him, some sort of 352.

Or I guess you could rely on one of the wide CB’s stepping in but then that would just leave space the wingbacks, moving an issue elsewhere. Issue for Amorin to sort but I don’t see how he does without making Bruno better at CM.
 
Last edited:
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
Such as?

He's been our only standout player under Amorim. Some of his performances these past few months have been excellent, made all the more impressive by the lack of quality teammates surrounding him, and a manager/ownership who have tried to implement a system mid-season where we were inevitably going to suffer regression for months.
Click to expand...
I don't see an argument about him not being our best player last season? Which, in turn, doesn't dispute the fact that he's ill-suited to playing as a CM. It's like asking a fox to go against its instincts and guard the henhouse - eventually bad things will happen. Bruno's all about going forward and making stuff happen, which is a far cry from controlling the midfield.

One would think that having spent 6+ months coaching in the PL, Amorim would be more aware of the demands of the league. By the looks of it, he's hell-bent on shoehoring Bruno into the team at any cost and that may end up costing him the job.
 
sherrinford said:
Ugarte. He's of a suitable ilk, but probably in need of upgrading.

Most of you seem mad to me. I reckon Fernandes just had the best season since his initial 18 or so months here. He demonstrated that not only can he be effective in a deeper position, but that that is now his best role. He genuinely excelled, to the point where you would have to be looking at some of the very best around to find an upgrade for him there.

Bruno has also shown that within that deeper area, he can thrive both as the more attacking centre mid/ no.8 alongside a holder, and as the deepest, anchoring player/ no.6. The more licence or responsibility he has to get forward, the more he can provide verticality and off the ball running as well as telling final third contributions. The more licence or responsibility he has to pick up the ball deeper, the more he can progress the play with his passing.

He is versatile. Partner him with a more destructive player, but said player could be either a no.6 or a no.8, and could be either limited or well-balanced.
Click to expand...

I agree, not sure what some were watching this season.
 
Bruno +1 is a midfield that will never ever work.
If that is the grand plan we are fecked.
Regardless of anything else
 
Unless you sell Bruno, no point having both of Mbuemo and Cunha. Because, you then just have 3 players in competing for 2 positions.

We could either put that resource into a striker, midfielder or goalkeeper. We don't move the needle with having Bruno, Cunha, and Mbuemo.

The only other option is switching to a 3 man midfield, having Bruno, Ugarte and Mainoo or a replacement.

Still feels despite the positive signings, there is a still a lack of cohesive planning on what moves the needle the most going into next season.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
So really the conclusion is there is no place for Bruno in the system, and there is no midfielder in the world that can cover him, so the best thing to do is sell him or change the system.
Click to expand...

I think he'd still be very good as a #10 if we had a proper team around him (a left-footed Frimpong type at LWB, a good #9 and an Mbeumo type as the other #10), but we don't. But yeah, a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 makes more sense for him.
 
the chameleon said:
Unless you sell Bruno, no point having both of Mbuemo and Cunha. Because, you then just have 3 players in competing for 2 positions.

We could either put that resource into a striker, midfielder or goalkeeper. We don't move the needle with having Bruno, Cunha, and Mbuemo.

The only other option is switching to a 3 man midfield, having Bruno, Ugarte and Mainoo or a replacement.

Still feels despite the positive signings, there is a still a lack of cohesive planning on what moves the needle the most going into next season.
Click to expand...

Bruno was our player of the year and played his best football as a CM. I’d argue this was the best I’ve seen Bruno in a long time. I think it’s clear where the three of them will fit in.
 
L1nk said:
People who think we are gonna sign a midfielder are going to be in for a rude awakening after the Bruno news now. We have Bruno, Mainoo, Ugarte, Casemiro, Collyer at least for 2 spots. Bruno is going to start everygame if he can, and we have Casemiro and Ugarte for the other spot. Unless we sell one of them I can't see us buying one. So take your pick out of Ugarte or Casemiro, it's a disaster waiting to happen in the league i'm afraid, we'll get bullied.
Click to expand...
So don't believe in Whitwell article then I take it
 
Fortitude said:
That’s easier said than done. Bruno doesn’t think nor move like a deeper midfielder, which is why he gets caught out in the position so frequently. His instinctive game is that of an attacking midfielder who is used to being the final stop before the ball is used decisively, like De Bruyne. Bruno is not a natural at high levels of patience and ball retention and he doesn’t really go in for the death by a thousand cuts method most great CM’s can methodically pull off as and when they need or want to. He also doesn’t have the positional awareness of natural deeper central midfielders. He’s essentially being forced into something that doesn’t come naturally to him when he plays that responsible CM role. Sure it can work out from time to time, but equally, it’s a disaster waiting to happen against organised teams with quality midfielders who are looking to exploit any lack of know how in their domain.

Bruno also really isn’t used to covering and switching duties with partners in midfield - knowing, intrinsically, what to do to best aid a defensive teammate under the cosh. When things are going well, these things are not exposed, but when a game is in real disarray, the whole defensive midfield shape collapses because the spaces natural deeper CM’s occupy are not being tended to. You really need a special player to be able to cover so many of these issues whilst still being able to play a good game of their own.

I think Bruno’s lack of quick feet and dribbling ability also compounds the worries in that area of midfield as he cannot twist and turn and make the momentary space for himself that natural CM’s do without a moment of thought or hesitation.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is exactly how I feel and why I thought we should take the 100M from Saudi and replace him with Mbuemo and an actual central midfielder.

I suppose players can learn and evolve. Mkhi and Eriksen both became CMs later on in their career. If we need to get a few more years out of Bruno then the deeper position makes sense to me.
 
Teja said:
Yeah this is exactly how I feel and why I thought we should take the 100M from Saudi and replace him with Mbuemo and an actual central midfielder.

I suppose players can learn and evolve. Mkhi and Eriksen both became CMs later on in their career. If we need to get a few more years out of Bruno then the deeper position makes sense to me.
Click to expand...
So Bruno should have had no say in the decision?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.