What should be done with City's titles?

What should be done with City's titles?


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Garnacho's Shoelaces

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So you think the UAE's global image has been ameliorated by City thus far?
On the whole, yes.

Never forget that we are in an echo chamber. United forum to one side, I would conservatively estimate that at a maximum only 10% of football fans engage in any form of discussion forum or podcast listening. The overwhelming majority of the fanbase probably get 95% of their information about football from Sky Sports analysis and the odd newspaper. None of the mainstream media channels have given nearly enough focus on the City story.

The same media have given focus to calling Pep a "genius", highlighting the "magic" of their treble. Decent balanced reporting would also mention the 100000 children maimed or killed in Yemen by the Saudi-UAE conflict. Perhaps they could mention that flogging and stoning are still permissible sentences for being part of the LGBTQIA+ community. That the UAE have been assisting Russian oligarchs circumvent sanctions imposed due to the Ukraine invasion. The fact that the UAE are on the FATF grey list due to being an enabler of money laundering and terrorist financing.

Instead we get smiling images of Sheikh Mansour, universal compliments for a serial cheat in Pep and Jack 'the lad' Grealish on our screens.

Overall, the UAE have improved their image to the 90% majority but worsened it to the more informed 10%.
 

Bastian

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I think all the trophies should be melted in a big pot during the FA Cup Final opening ceremony and teaspoons made for every club in League Two and above, inscribed with "More than you believe".

Trophies melted and made into bins outside Emptihad.
 
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Partridge

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D. Hold the responsible parasites to account in front of a packed etihad stadium, and then execute them. Its a bit extreme, but then, these are extreme times.
 

Hughie77

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They keep them, they won them the players won them .. not the club .. . Do the players know there playing for a corrupt club ? .. put them in a crime museum for all to see..
 

Baneofthegame

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Feel like they should send the trophies back in and then have them engraved with “Won through cheating.”
 

adexkola

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Overall, the UAE have improved their image to the 90% majority but worsened it to the more informed 10%.
The 90% couldn't give a feck about the UAE, who I promise you isn't thinking about them or the 10% who now hate them.

They have who they want in their pocket. Look at the relationship of the UAE/Saudis with the UK government. See where they get their weapons from. See where they sell their oil to.

I still find it fascinating some people think, "yeah but they still desire the affection of the average football fan, and that's why they bought City"
 

Chipper

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Void it all.

I'm not even sure that giving it to the 2nd place team would be the best way to deal with with things if it was decided that the titles should be awarded elsewhere.

There'd be some merit in voiding their results and awarding them to their opponents. I think the standard is 3-0? Different teams would gain more or less depending on how they did against City that season. Lost twice you get 6 more, beat them twice and you'd gain nothing. Wouldn't always be 2nd place who'd end up with it.

To avoid the argument just void the lot.
 

HTG

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They should be forced to exchange all trophies won during that time with ones documenting their cheating. They should have to display this in a club museum.
 

Garnacho's Shoelaces

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The 90% couldn't give a feck about the UAE, who I promise you isn't thinking about them or the 10% who now hate them.

They have who they want in their pocket. Look at the relationship of the UAE/Saudis with the UK government. See where they get their weapons from. See where they sell their oil to.

I still find it fascinating some people think, "yeah but they still desire the affection of the average football fan, and that's why they bought City"
It's not about attracting the adulation of the average football fan. It's about aligning your stage with the image of excellence, high performance, success, etc.
 

siw2007

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The scenario where they would be stripped of their trophies would probably be the most attractive punishment for City.
But a more interesting situation might be to let them keep their titles but with the black mark against them. It might be easier legally to enforce by the PL and will always be a reminder.

Still 90% sure that nothing will come of this. City have gotten away with it for too long. Their owners are too powerful and have too much money to let this stop them.
 

adexkola

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It's not about attracting the adulation of the average football fan. It's about aligning your stage with the image of excellence, high performance, success, etc.
All owners do this :confused: This isn't exclusive to City's owners.

Decent balanced reporting would also mention the 100000 children maimed or killed in Yemen by the Saudi-UAE conflict. Perhaps they could mention that flogging and stoning are still permissible sentences for being part of the LGBTQIA+ community. That the UAE have been assisting Russian oligarchs circumvent sanctions imposed due to the Ukraine invasion. The fact that the UAE are on the FATF grey list due to being an enabler of money laundering and terrorist financing.
You seem to think that they bought City to move coverage about them from the horrible stuff they've done, to them owning a successful football club. That's not how the news works, and you're assuming the 90% would otherwise give a feck about the UAE if they didn't own City.
 

Yagami

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Give us our titles. It'd be the first time since leaving that I'd want to hear something from Mourinho, too. An interview from him after being awarded a PL title here has the potential to be fun.
 

Brightonian

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You seem to think that they bought City to move coverage about them from the horrible stuff they've done, to them owning a successful football club. That's not how the news works, and you're assuming the 90% would otherwise give a feck about the UAE if they didn't own City.
Sportswashing is not about winning the hearts and minds of citizens of places like the US, EU, UK. It's about attaching your nation to enough 'respectable' news to give governments of those countries the wiggle room to do business with you.

90% wouldn't give a feck about Saudi Arabia if they didn't do things like buy Newcastle, host Club World Cup, fund the LIV, host a Grand Prix, boxing matches etc etc. They would hear about the nation only through occasional awareness of news stories about warcrimes in Yemen, human rights abuses, oil geopolitics, and the bigger splashier ones like the assassination of Jamal Kashoggi.

Now, those news stories are balanced or even outweighed by news stories about drama in world golf, Cristiano Ronaldo, Newcastle joining the big boys in the PL, etc. Again, average UK citizens still broadly don't give a feck. But whereas before the 10% who did give a feck would have a clear run at protest and outrage when the UK sells arms to or otherwise supports the Saudis, now the whole issue is muddier. Governments like the UK can say 'we are committed to working with international partners like Saudi Arabia on their human rights efforts' and continue to sign arms deals etc. The protestors will look just that little bit more hysterical and silly to the average bod on the street because after all this is that lot who own Newcastle and invest in golf and infrastructure and every sports fan in the world will have enjoyed at least one thing that they are responsible for, and three or your favourite footballers work there and can regularly be seen advertising their lovely, Westerner-friendly holiday destinations boasting glitzy hotels and eternal sunshine.

Geopolitical PR is not about winning an argument or winning hearts and minds. It's about shifting the window of respectability enough that the apathetic majority will let you do business with their governments.

After Kashoggi, Biden said he would make Saudi a 'pariah'. Now he's fist-bumping with MBS. The gap between those two stances was bridged, significantly, with sportswashing.
 

Eric_the_Red99

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D. Hold the responsible parasites to account in front of a packed etihad stadium, and then execute them. Its a bit extreme, but then, these are extreme times.
A nice idea, but I’ve highlighted where your plan unfortunately falls apart
 

Terry Chango

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They keep them, they won them the players won them .. not the club .. . Do the players know there playing for a corrupt club ? .. put them in a crime museum for all to see..
Players and managers 100% knew/know the deal with city. They sold their souls and can pay the price. The entire footballing world knew city were cooking the books based on the information we saw on commercial deals, incorrect match day attendances, second wages being payed to Mancini, the stadium sponsor and so on.

Players jumped at the chance to double/triple salaries with handsome signing-on bonuses and god knows what else they have in their contracts.

Mancini knew I’m guessing.
 

adexkola

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Geopolitical PR is not about winning an argument or winning hearts and minds. It's about shifting the window of respectability enough that the apathetic majority will let you do business with their governments.

After Kashoggi, Biden said he would make Saudi a 'pariah'. Now he's fist-bumping with MBS. The gap between those two stances was bridged, significantly, with sportswashing.
Where your reasonable post falls flat is that the UK and US had significant ties with these countries before they started wading into sports. And the UK and US continue to maintain relationships with problematic regimes who do NOT own sport teams, and hence aren't in the minds of that apathetic majority. Governments will ignore public opinion and act in what they perceive to be in the best interest.

And the bolded is... you surely can't believe that Biden declined to make Saudi Arabia a 'pariah', not because they're a counterweight to Iran, or because they want to peace it up with Israel, or because of oil, but because... they bought Newcastle and host F1??? If you believe that then fair enough because we'll never be on the same page. But that's a stance that has no factual basis.
 

OleGunnar20

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Void all round is the simplest way I think. It's not like we'll be out celebrating retrospective titles really, it's all in the past now.

I'd prefer they focus on moving into the future properly.
 

lex talionis

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I have no idea where all this stands in terms of due process and final determination, or if this is all going to be swept under the rug, but if at the conclusion of whatever the process is it is determined that City cooked its cooks to mislead governing bodies then it must be stripped of all trophies it won during those years in which it is demonstrated that City cooked its books.

It's just that simple and any claim that it would be small time to hold any PL club to account for serious violations of the rules of governing bodies is itself small time.
 

decorativeed

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D. Hold the responsible parasites to account in front of a packed etihad stadium, and then execute them. Its a bit extreme, but then, these are extreme times.
Harsh and barbaric.

But also what they'd do to a woman who cheated on her husband in the UAE until 2020, and who am I as a liberal westerner to question their justice system?
 

adexkola

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All owners? Only a minority are State owned so cannot be all owners. Most are club owners out of personal interest or for commercial benefit.

Glazers aren't owning United to improve the image of the USA. Strange analysis.
You're missing my point. All owners benefit from their clubs being successful. All owners look to align their stage with the success of their club. Are there owners out there who hide when their clubs win trophies?

Is it beyond possibility that these rich oligarchs and autocratic leaders, just hold these clubs out of personal interest, the same way they collect yachts, estates, cars, watches, women, and so on? That's the simplest answer to me and fits in their pattern.

And again we're back at the ridiculous notion that they're looking to improve the image of their country.

But not to the 10% who know their bad deeds and hate them for it.
But not to the 90% who don't give a feck about politics either way
But not to the Western governments that they are already in bed with, and get all sorts of favors from

Who are they looking to improve their image for?? Again, I see no reason to attach nefarious reason to their club purchases beyond, "oh I have all this money, why not buy a club in the PL?"

Obligatory bolding @duffer
 

ROFLUTION

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Sportswashing is not about winning the hearts and minds of citizens of places like the US, EU, UK. It's about attaching your nation to enough 'respectable' news to give governments of those countries the wiggle room to do business with you.

90% wouldn't give a feck about Saudi Arabia if they didn't do things like buy Newcastle, host Club World Cup, fund the LIV, host a Grand Prix, boxing matches etc etc. They would hear about the nation only through occasional awareness of news stories about warcrimes in Yemen, human rights abuses, oil geopolitics, and the bigger splashier ones like the assassination of Jamal Kashoggi.

Now, those news stories are balanced or even outweighed by news stories about drama in world golf, Cristiano Ronaldo, Newcastle joining the big boys in the PL, etc. Again, average UK citizens still broadly don't give a feck. But whereas before the 10% who did give a feck would have a clear run at protest and outrage when the UK sells arms to or otherwise supports the Saudis, now the whole issue is muddier. Governments like the UK can say 'we are committed to working with international partners like Saudi Arabia on their human rights efforts' and continue to sign arms deals etc. The protestors will look just that little bit more hysterical and silly to the average bod on the street because after all this is that lot who own Newcastle and invest in golf and infrastructure and every sports fan in the world will have enjoyed at least one thing that they are responsible for, and three or your favourite footballers work there and can regularly be seen advertising their lovely, Westerner-friendly holiday destinations boasting glitzy hotels and eternal sunshine.

Geopolitical PR is not about winning an argument or winning hearts and minds. It's about shifting the window of respectability enough that the apathetic majority will let you do business with their governments.

After Kashoggi, Biden said he would make Saudi a 'pariah'. Now he's fist-bumping with MBS. The gap between those two stances was bridged, significantly, with sportswashing.
Good description. But Id also add that it is done to impress the native population in their country. You probably wont revolt against a regime that gives you a lot of entertainment and “adds value” to the country internationally.

People live in extreme poverty, but at least you can take the focus off a bit by having a local team that are on pair with the best in the World.
 

lysglimt

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In some sports this is fairly common - due to (mostly) eastern-Europeans athletes using doping. They are then stripped of their medals - and the medals are sent to the persons ending 2nd, 3rd and 4th in that race. The problem is - I have yet to hear one athlete really celebrating it.Judging from interviews, most of them don't take any joy in receiving it because they were denied the celebration and joy as they won it. Then they receive a trophy in the mail 3-4-5 years afterwards.

I actually think City should be stripped of their medals - but I would actually prefer a long-term punishment that deprives City-fans of much celebration in the next few years. So I would rather kicked City down the leagues with additional points deductions the first seasons they return to the P.L - and no european football for 3 seasons. That would hurt City and their-fans a lot more than taking away their trophies.
 

Fortitude

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In some sports this is fairly common - due to (mostly) eastern-Europeans athletes using doping. They are then stripped of their medals - and the medals are sent to the persons ending 2nd, 3rd and 4th in that race. The problem is - I have yet to hear one athlete really celebrating it.Judging from interviews, most of them don't take any joy in receiving it because they were denied the celebration and joy as they won it. Then they receive a trophy in the mail 3-4-5 years afterwards.

I actually think City should be stripped of their medals - but I would actually prefer a long-term punishment that deprives City-fans of much celebration in the next few years. So I would rather kicked City down the leagues with additional points deductions the first seasons they return to the P.L - and no european football for 3 seasons. That would hurt City and their-fans a lot more than taking away their trophies.
People keep talking about either or. Both!
 

vanrooney

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2nd should get the title. i would assume that would also be more severe for city as teams who lost out on top4 or got relegated have a chance to claim for damages. i am all for the worst case for city (and chelsea)
 

Garnacho's Shoelaces

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You're missing my point. All owners benefit from their clubs being successful. All owners look to align their stage with the success of their club. Are there owners out there who hide when their clubs win trophies?

Is it beyond possibility that these rich oligarchs and autocratic leaders, just hold these clubs out of personal interest, the same way they collect yachts, estates, cars, watches, women, and so on? That's the simplest answer to me and fits in their pattern.

And again we're back at the ridiculous notion that they're looking to improve the image of their country.

But not to the 10% who know their bad deeds and hate them for it.
But not to the 90% who don't give a feck about politics either way
But not to the Western governments that they are already in bed with, and get all sorts of favors from

Who are they looking to improve their image for?? Again, I see no reason to attach nefarious reason to their club purchases beyond, "oh I have all this money, why not buy a club in the PL?"

Obligatory bolding @duffer
I don't have enough time to explain state-sponsored sports washing but plenty out there on the internet detailing the motivation behind it. Recommend the below.

https://www.politicshome.com/thehouse/article/authoritarian-states-sportswashing-beloved-uk-clubs
 

DJ_21

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Stripped and no winner for them seasons. Don’t know why people would choose the 2nd option. Nobody’s gonna celebrate a title from 10 years ago. The emotions have gone… winning titles gives fans a buzz at the moment it happens… wouldn’t seem right.
 

Josh 76

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Just let them keep them and move on. If it was Liverpool, then the answer maybe different.
 

DRJosh

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I can’t see how City would be allowed to continue in the premier league. While a number of the allegations are repeats, the scale of impact on the league would suggest a harsh punishment. But then again, I don’t have faith in footballing authorities or the legal system.