Just money really. More exposure to sport = people start to affiliate you with sport and not other things. I'd say the reputation has definitely improved even if I just think of my friendship/professional networks. Re the bolded it would be a positive outcome but I think the problem is the trade off seems very unequal, how much really do you think Saudi will change its attitude towards LGBTQ for example? There is a definite sense of doing the absolute minimum for the maximum gain which raises the question of will they revert back to those practices once they get to a place they feel they are less reliant on external opinion.
What should be done with City's titles?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I do agree with you.
However, the rules (that shouldn't have been there) are there. City and Chelsea purposely broke them. They need to be punished.
Something that actually hurts them.
I don't think stripping them of their titles will. Neither will relegation. They'll just tear up the Championship, ruin it for everyone else, and be back the following season to ruin the PL again.
Something that would be effective would be something that hurts their ability to be successful in future, and breaks down their ability to remain consistently competitive, as a reprimand.
That's pretty much the only way you can hurt them.
I don't think stripping them of their titles will. Neither will relegation. They'll just tear up the Championship, ruin it for everyone else, and be back the following season to ruin the PL again.
Something that would be effective would be something that hurts their ability to be successful in future, and breaks down their ability to remain consistently competitive, as a reprimand.
That's pretty much the only way you can hurt them.
Fecks me off that United, at the peak of their powers, lost a player like Ronaldo to Spain but Shitty managed to keep hold of Silva and Aguero and nobody in the media seemed to bat an eye.
Clearest sign of their financial doping in my view. Manchester isn’t that good. Those players are getting a good amount on top of the stated wage. I’m not buying them being happy at city whilst every top player at other clubs seem to beg for a move to Madrid or Barca.
Clearest sign of their financial doping in my view. Manchester isn’t that good. Those players are getting a good amount on top of the stated wage. I’m not buying them being happy at city whilst every top player at other clubs seem to beg for a move to Madrid or Barca.
Give them a massive points deduction too, they've set a precedent with Everton's 10 points but we all know it's going to end up getting swept under the carpet and all they'll get it a pathetic fine
Very good questions. I'll save a full answer for a thread I'll make on the topic, but for now I'd say that the most coherent definition of sportswashing I've seen in academic journals that makes sense does not causally link spending to increase in positive perception.
@Iker Quesadillas has done a better breakdown on this but to summarize, Madrid and Barcelona had better versions of Silva/Aguero for much of their peak at City.
The only player I'd say that has been exceptional without the usual rumors has been KDB. And even then, Real had Modric/Kroos. Barcelona should have been snooping around but maybe they were getting into their broke phase.
You're gonna break redcafe on this day, as the enigma of what is adexkola reveals itself.
You're mis-representing what I said. Please point out where I said "any other club then Bayern". I specifically pulled clubs out that were well outside the top echelon of German football and saying its not fundamentally unfair they can't compete. That doesn't actually preclude them from trying to making a go of it, my point was always it isn't unfair. Its pretty hard to debate with someone who argues against a position I didn't take. You've done it twice in two posts and I don't really have the energy for it.
I am 100% not in the minority. If you go to every fan of a league 1 and 2 club and ask: "do you feel it is unfair you don't get to compete with Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal etc." and most of them would say no. We aspire to achieve above where we are now, we'd like to get back to L1 and into the Championship, but no-one thinks its unfair that we're smaller than bigger clubs.
Enigma? What's enigmatic about being contrarian for the sake of it without ever putting forward any real arguments?You're gonna break redcafe on this day, as the enigma of what is adexkola reveals itself.
I still find it hilarious that the ones arguing against FFP are those that use the competitivity of the league as an argument, when in fact a well run club (organically well run club) has more chance of success in a league with strong FFP (or similar) rules that are actually being enforced.
I think we'll soon find out if it is just for the sake of it in the hotly anticipated thread.
I do concur with what you've said, and the counter arguments don't really do a good job of presenting the other side given abuse of these rules has birthed the monstrous cancer that is City and their tentacles corrupting so much in and outside of football whilst opening up the floodgates for others to follow.
They should be voided and the City squad made to take a parade bus of shame through Manchester, as a warning for any would-be future financial dopers.
I don't think awarding titles to second place finishers makes sense. Just void those seasons as far as the Premier League title is concerned. City still finished first, but are not deserving of the league title - that's not a slight on City's players or manager, all of whom worked hard to achieve their top place finishes in the years in question, but the organisation they represent has allegedly committed financial offences on such a scale that they simply cannot be ignored.
I'll save it for my 50,000th post. Seems befittingYou're gonna break redcafe on this day, as the enigma of what is adexkola reveals itself.
Void or let them keep. Would be painful to see Liverpool draw level or surpass Man Utd thanks to 3 boardroom titles. Titles awarded to second best feel hollow.
The best way to hurt City is damage their future prospects of success and make the rebuilding effort for current owners a near impossible slog.
- Drop below tier 4. Even to tier 7
- Start the subsequent 5 -10 seasons on -20 points
- 2 year Transfer ban. 5 year overseas transfer ban .Only signings allowed will be British academy age players
- Wage cap in line with typical clubs at the tier they occupy.
The best way to hurt City is damage their future prospects of success and make the rebuilding effort for current owners a near impossible slog.
- Drop below tier 4. Even to tier 7
- Start the subsequent 5 -10 seasons on -20 points
- 2 year Transfer ban. 5 year overseas transfer ban .Only signings allowed will be British academy age players
- Wage cap in line with typical clubs at the tier they occupy.
Why am I seeing so much sympathy for the City players who may get their titles voided?
Sure, they aren’t to blame for their club’s sins but they wouldn’t have won any medals without the club cheating. Yes, they won those games. But only because they were part of a team that was built illegitimately.
It’s like using a cheat code in a video game. It renders the victory meaningless.
Sure, they aren’t to blame for their club’s sins but they wouldn’t have won any medals without the club cheating. Yes, they won those games. But only because they were part of a team that was built illegitimately.
It’s like using a cheat code in a video game. It renders the victory meaningless.
I don't get this thinking at all. There are players that have fought and worked and dreamt their whole lives to win the Premier League and other competitions. Then they got cheated out of it. Now even if they get it retrospectively because City cheated then its surely better than nothing. Plus Pep and the players are still to blame because they are part of the organization that cheated. Ignorance not not equal innocence. If they really don't agree with what their organization is doing then they should condemn them and walk out. Lets see how many do.
Should also offer themselves up to forensic accounting, and if cleared, then be seem as an utterly innocent party and victim, absolved of any wrongdoing.
You'll soon see how many have something to hide and are thus, complicit.
Can’t just give it the team finishing in second. This has a ripple effect. 5th then have claims to champs league spots and the lost finances that comes with playing in ECL. It gets too messy.
just strip them and relegate them. Like rangers. They’ll be back in 5 years
just strip them and relegate them. Like rangers. They’ll be back in 5 years
I honestly beleive the *asterisk champions has a more of an impact. It puts all of their titles to shame and validates every opposing supporters view of their victories, as being hollow and meaningless.
I don't think City should just be relegated.i honestly think they should be given a huge points deduction that carries over season to season until they are out of negative points (literally minus 1000 points or similar).
In effect it still means booting them of the league but that's how it should be done in my opinion.
In effect it still means booting them of the league but that's how it should be done in my opinion.
That's not what happened to rangers though. The club went in to administration because of finances. The Rangers we see today is technically a completely new club.
Huge points deductions is the only way in my opinion. I agree about not passing the titles to other teams though. Just strip City of them.
I came across this mail on F365. What's the caf's retort? I know too little to comment
Man City DID fail to cooperate with the UEFA enquiry and were fined for it, that is absolutely true. The context though that everybody conveniently ignores, is that City were perfectly cooperating with the CFCB investigation right up until that body leaked sensitive business information of Man City’s to the press, and then they stopped because UEFA couldn’t be trusted not to leak files to their mates that were supposed to be confidential (and indeed were of great interest to rival clubs chasing sponsorships).
This was even commented upon by CAS so feel free to use this point next time you’re all pretending that you read the judgement.
In regard to the PL case, City deny the failure to cooperate charge and it’s fair to say that according to the journalists covering them, they were pretty shocked this came up. They even commented on this in their initial statement.
It’s funny how Mailboxers rant on and on about how corrupt UEFA, the Big Four, the ECA, the PL and the rest are but when it comes to Man City apparently they’re all paragons of virtue and it’s not a stitch-up despite the 115 charges being conveniently released the day before the Independent Football Regulator vote, despite the fact that the press release was so rushed that they had to go back and edit it because they quoted the wrong regulations (which for a legal statement tells you a lot), despite the fact that UEFA attempted to break its own rules to charge City and were caught by CAS, despite the fact that City only failed FFP the first time around because UEFA DID change their rules 2 years into a 3 year Monitoring Period to disallow some exemptions, despite the fact that of the 5 actual allegations by the PL 2 of them are instantly dismissable and the other 3 have already being investigated and cleared by numerous courts.
People coping on the Etisalat deal don’t understand firstly how small that deal is and secondly how it will be clear like everything else was.
Do you know why City have 115 charges against them? Because they’re fishing. The PL spent 6 years investigating City’s accounts (with cooperation of City by the way) and came up with a bunch of easily dismissable stuff (“paying people off the books”, etc), a bunch of stuff other people have already investigated and which they have no new evidence of (sponsorship deals) and a vague charge which doesn’t really mean anything concrete and is subjectively judged (failing to cooperate).
If the PL ACTUALLY believed that they had the evidence to go against City then they’d have a small and watertight case, instead they’ve gone as wide as possible.
There were 28,000 documents submitted in the Everton case as evidence relating to a single charge. How many do you believe the PL will get for 115 charges? How much manpower do you think it would take to go through and cross reference it all?
This is all irrelevant any way to be honest, because not a single one of you actually cares about this case in the terms of its legal merits.
You’ve already judged City guilty so if YET AGAIN there are no financial irregularities found then it doesn’t matter to you because despite having no legal, accounting, marketing or football business experience then you all know better than every court in the land.
Stop pretending you’re on some moral crusade for truth and start acknowledging that you just want City to fail for other reasons and you’re hoping through ignorance that the financial irregularities that still remain completely unproven is the thing that will topple them because your clubs have no ability to compete on the pitch due to terrible mismanagement. Oh and the guys who were “there’s no smoke without fire”/”just because its not proven doesn’t mean its not true” the other day, please please please disqualify yourself from jury service because you’re a danger to society.
I’m sure this will result in some face saving deal for the PL who will hand down some massive and hilarious sentence docking 5 billion points
and stripping every title ever won ever which they know will be completely unenforceable and will be overturned about sixteen seconds into the appeals process. But they get their big PR win for a few months, City get dragged through the press as per usual and the fact that it all gets dismissed on appeal won’t matter a jot to people because everybody wins in that scenario apart from those of us who would prefer Governing bodies not to purposely attempt to stitch up people because they happen to be taking revenue away from clubs they’d prefer it to go to.
And no, you still don’t understand how the time barring thing worked.
This was even commented upon by CAS so feel free to use this point next time you’re all pretending that you read the judgement.
In regard to the PL case, City deny the failure to cooperate charge and it’s fair to say that according to the journalists covering them, they were pretty shocked this came up. They even commented on this in their initial statement.
It’s funny how Mailboxers rant on and on about how corrupt UEFA, the Big Four, the ECA, the PL and the rest are but when it comes to Man City apparently they’re all paragons of virtue and it’s not a stitch-up despite the 115 charges being conveniently released the day before the Independent Football Regulator vote, despite the fact that the press release was so rushed that they had to go back and edit it because they quoted the wrong regulations (which for a legal statement tells you a lot), despite the fact that UEFA attempted to break its own rules to charge City and were caught by CAS, despite the fact that City only failed FFP the first time around because UEFA DID change their rules 2 years into a 3 year Monitoring Period to disallow some exemptions, despite the fact that of the 5 actual allegations by the PL 2 of them are instantly dismissable and the other 3 have already being investigated and cleared by numerous courts.
People coping on the Etisalat deal don’t understand firstly how small that deal is and secondly how it will be clear like everything else was.
Do you know why City have 115 charges against them? Because they’re fishing. The PL spent 6 years investigating City’s accounts (with cooperation of City by the way) and came up with a bunch of easily dismissable stuff (“paying people off the books”, etc), a bunch of stuff other people have already investigated and which they have no new evidence of (sponsorship deals) and a vague charge which doesn’t really mean anything concrete and is subjectively judged (failing to cooperate).
If the PL ACTUALLY believed that they had the evidence to go against City then they’d have a small and watertight case, instead they’ve gone as wide as possible.
There were 28,000 documents submitted in the Everton case as evidence relating to a single charge. How many do you believe the PL will get for 115 charges? How much manpower do you think it would take to go through and cross reference it all?
This is all irrelevant any way to be honest, because not a single one of you actually cares about this case in the terms of its legal merits.
You’ve already judged City guilty so if YET AGAIN there are no financial irregularities found then it doesn’t matter to you because despite having no legal, accounting, marketing or football business experience then you all know better than every court in the land.
Stop pretending you’re on some moral crusade for truth and start acknowledging that you just want City to fail for other reasons and you’re hoping through ignorance that the financial irregularities that still remain completely unproven is the thing that will topple them because your clubs have no ability to compete on the pitch due to terrible mismanagement. Oh and the guys who were “there’s no smoke without fire”/”just because its not proven doesn’t mean its not true” the other day, please please please disqualify yourself from jury service because you’re a danger to society.
I’m sure this will result in some face saving deal for the PL who will hand down some massive and hilarious sentence docking 5 billion points
and stripping every title ever won ever which they know will be completely unenforceable and will be overturned about sixteen seconds into the appeals process. But they get their big PR win for a few months, City get dragged through the press as per usual and the fact that it all gets dismissed on appeal won’t matter a jot to people because everybody wins in that scenario apart from those of us who would prefer Governing bodies not to purposely attempt to stitch up people because they happen to be taking revenue away from clubs they’d prefer it to go to.
And no, you still don’t understand how the time barring thing worked.
Hmmm, interesting. This thread blew up and is veering way off topic now. If you do a separate one eventually, I may chime in there, though I must say this stuff can get quite laborious and in the weeds and I have doubts about whether the juice is worth the squeeze. I remember at one point I was supposed to give you a response regarding the real world impact of sportswashing, realized the time it would take to concoct something that would at least give you pause, and peaced out of that effort. This is supposed to be a football forum, not a place for tedious academic diatribes
.They're sometimes warranted! It's about the most serious and unprecedented subject we've had here. Definitely deserves a deep dive!Hmmm, interesting. This thread blew up and is veering way off topic now. If you do a separate one eventually, I may chime in there, though I must say this stuff can get quite laborious and in the weeds and I have doubts about whether the juice is worth the squeeze. I remember at one point I was supposed to give you a response regarding the real world impact of sportswashing, realized the time it would take to concoct something that would at least give you pause, and peaced out of that effort. This is supposed to be a football forum, not a place for tedious academic diatribes
From what I gather, this rant is a mix of half-truths, speculation, conspiracy, venom, banter and righteous indignation. Fair enough, given that it is a fan defending their club. The most digestible presentation of some of the countervailing evidence and opinions of the City side I have encountered is here, though it is still obviously biased.
Nothing substantial has really happened with these charges since they were announced.
What happens if Chelsea get titles stripped? I imagine the 2017 one would be awarded to Spurs who finished 2nd but what about their 2015 one when City finished 2nd?
Strip them of all their titles and they should be relegated by a few divisions atleast.
Awarding the title to 2nd place team, or no winner doesn't make that much of a difference now -> Its just for record books anyways.
Awarding the title to 2nd place team, or no winner doesn't make that much of a difference now -> Its just for record books anyways.
Arsenal finished 3rd!
The runners up should get the titles, simple.
City cheated the league, got an unfair leg up and deprived others of their opportunity to win.
City cheated the league, got an unfair leg up and deprived others of their opportunity to win.
Interesting... It's amazing how we are all swayed by uninformed convictions (our own, mostly)
Whenever I see this title on the main page, in my head it reads:
What should be done with City’s titties?
What should be done with City’s titties?
Fair do’s. Didn’t know that it was administration. Just thought it was a punishment for something money related.
Completely agree. Sadly what will happen is stripping them of titles, a relegation and a point deduction.
Let them keep the titles (so it wont go to Liverpool) but slap them with a huge points deduction and a transfer ban.
It would take balls from the PFA to serve them a punishment that would be fair for their crimes if found guilty of course, having said I that, I feel the PFA shouldn't have allowed this linger so long, the Potential fair punishment is quite a difficult task because they'll have to fix over a decade of damage it's brought on the league.
I think hiring an independent body like say the FBI would be a good way to clean up the corruption, Could be the only way to expose everyone who had either been bribed or intimidated since the City owners came to town.
Personally I'll like their title stripped, make them pay for all the damages cost on the other teams, then send them down as far away from the league as possible, that would be fair No?
I think hiring an independent body like say the FBI would be a good way to clean up the corruption, Could be the only way to expose everyone who had either been bribed or intimidated since the City owners came to town.
Personally I'll like their title stripped, make them pay for all the damages cost on the other teams, then send them down as far away from the league as possible, that would be fair No?
Most of that is biased nonsense that has been covered many times over, but I think they're probably spot on about the punishments. The league will strip titles and they'll get it overturned in a drawn out appeal, much like they did with UEFA. The league can say they did their best but ultimately nothing happens. My biggest fear is people eventually forgetting and thinking they're almost legitimate. See Chelsea 20 years on from Abramovich.
It's funny how the crux of that argument is that so many charges actually means its a weaker case. It couldn't just be that they're so corrupt and dodgy that they genuinely have 115 valid charges against them.
I think one of the biggest hurdles and points of confusion in the media and fan narrative is that a lot of the proof of wrongdoing was obtained illegally through email leaks, hacking and so on. Doesnt mean it's not all true but a lot of it will be inadmissible in the legal process. I don't know how strong the PL case will be without it.
Nobody likes Citys tities and that's a fact
Makes sense, but I still wonder about "illegally" obtained evidence and it being inadmissible in court. This isn't the thread, but I'm all for using every bit of evidence available, regardless of how it was obtained.
This one is really hard because on one hand the teams who finished second feel like they deserve the title as they were the best "legal" team in the diviision and the management, players and coaches morally deserve that title. On the other hand it does open up a cascade effect of people finishing 5th asking about CL compensation, all teams asking about increased prize money because they should all be bumped up a sport, the team that finished 18th saying they shouldn't go down etc. I think to avoid this complexity if anything is done to City, it will just be voided.