What to expect from a new centre back pair?

[A-man]

Lindelof played vs La Liga team in that final and played on the left and his style of ball playing didn't change much from his usual style in EPL. Because a style of play is like habit.

Maguire's style of play is closer to Lindelof based on stats, in comparison, Torres's style of play is much different to Lindelof. This is where Torres's style of play can be an upgrade because his style of ball playing is he loves to dribble, likes to takes on players, and hold the ball, this is perfect for our style as we played like below:

McTominay tried to carry the ball forward and invited pressure on the right side when we are in possession transition. Torres's style of play would be very suitable to be our left centre back to take Maguire's old spot and Maguire who has style of play closer to Lindelof would have no problem to take Lindelof's spot and will finally get the chance to play on his strong feet:

I am not sure why the clip is so impressive? This is how we often play, also with Maguire and Lindelof.
Anyway, we’re not likely going to buy a new CB because of his dribbling skills.

 

[golden_blunder]

No we’re not. What about defensive improvements?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I am not sure why the clip is so impressive? This is how we often play, also with Maguire and Lindelof.
Anyway, we’re not likely going to buy a new CB because of his dribbling skills.

I never say we should sign a CB because of his dribbling skills. I'm only making a point why and how Torres is still an upgrade of Lindelof since you don't think he is.

I posted the clip to shows how we play, Torres playing style fits the way how we play, and if we sign Torres then his playing style is an upgrade of Lindelof.

 

[A-man]

I never say we should sign a CB because of his dribbling skills. I'm only making a point why and how Torres is still an upgrade of Lindelof since you don't think he is.

I posted the clip to shows how we play, Torres playing style fits the way how we play, and if we sign Torres then his playing style is an upgrade of Lindelof.

I’m not saying he would be a bad signing. If he doesn’t take the first spot it would be an upgrade on the bench. But he is pretty similar in style to Lindelof plus the question mark how he would fit in the PL. Even if he would be a slight upgrade in terms ball handling, he looks like a down grade in defence.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I’m not saying he would be a bad signing. If he doesn’t take the first spot it would be an upgrade on the bench. But he is pretty similar in style to Lindelof plus the question mark how he would fit in the PL. Even if he would be a slight upgrade in terms ball handling, he looks like a down grade in defence.

I never say you said he would be bad signing. I'm countering your point when you said he wouldn't be an upgrade of Lindelof.

Where is the similarity? The stats doesn't show he has similar style to Lindelof in their ball playing though, that's what I have explained them to you. And where is this is down grade in defense?

 

[A-man]

I never say you said he would be bad signing. I'm countering your point when you said he wouldn't be an upgrade of Lindelof.

Where is the similarity? The stats doesn't show he has similar style to Lindelof in their ball playing though, that's what I have explained them to you. And where is this is down grade in defense?

You have hardly watched the guy play, only looked at the stats. It’s not enough for an assessment.
Similarities, ive only watches him 5-6 times so not an expert. But they are both good on the ball, both progress with the ball, ok Torres dribbles more according to the stats but in the end they create similar amount of chances.
None of them goes in to many duels although Lindelof is stronger in the air. Both cover space well. Of all the CBs being discussed, Torres is most similar in style to Lindelof. Maybe a bit better on the ball, but weaker in defence.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

You have hardly watched the guy play, only looked at the stats. It’s not enough for an assessment.
Similarities, ive only watches him 5-6 times so not an expert. But they are both good on the ball, both progress with the ball, ok Torres dribbles more according to the stats but in the end they create similar amount of chances.
None of them goes in to many duels although Lindelof is stronger in the air. Both cover space well. Of all the CBs being discussed, Torres is most similar in style to Lindelof. Maybe a bit better on the ball, but weaker in defence.

I explained it before in another thread (Pau Torres Transfer Thread) months ago about the way how he played and what makes him better than Lindelof based on what I watched and you argued with it. So this time in this thread I used the stats and based on the stats, it matches with what I watched and what I explained before in another thread.

Build up play is not about creating chances, creating chances is not how we want our ball playing centre back to operate. I posted the clip to shows how we play, Torres playing style fits the way how we play, and if we end up signing Torres then his playing style is an upgrade of Lindelof.

 

[A-man]

I explained it before in another thread (Pau Torres Transfer Thread) months ago about the way how he played and what makes him better than Lindelof based on what I watched and you argued with it. So this time in this thread I used the stats and based on the stats, it matches with what I watched and what I explained before in another thread.

Build up play is not about creating chances, creating chances is not how we want our ball playing centre back to operate. I posted the clip to shows how we play, Torres playing style fits the way how we play, and if we end up signing Torres then his playing style is an upgrade of Lindelof.

In the three matches vs PL teams I haven’t seen him win one single aerial. Yes one offensive, but not even one defensive. Last season he had pretty much the worst aerial stats in the whole la liga and this season he’s not far from worst either. I really struggle to see that his transport of the ball is so good it compensates this.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

In the three matches vs PL teams I haven’t seen him win one single aerial. Yes one offensive, but not defensive. Last season he had pretty much the worst aerial stats in the whole la liga and this season he’s not far from worst either. I really struggle to see that his transport of the ball is so good it compensates this.

I never say he's an upgrade in defense. There is a reason why I never talk about it in this thread because in my view they are defensively about the same. My point is that Torres is still an upgrade of Lindelof since you don't think he is. Similar defensively, better in ball playing is still an upgrade though because there is still aspect of what makes him better or what he offers better than Lindelof.

 

[CanadianUtd]

Simply - someone to compliment Maguire for the most part, that’s competent enough to not have regular mental mishaps like Lindelof does which usually comes from a missed assignment due to a lack of concentration. Defending better than Lindelof aerially would be a bonus too.

I feel thats really been the difference and backbreaker in certain games. Little habits like that which have huge implications over the course of an entire season. Someone that can just be reliable to help keep things tidy at the back first and foremost and on set pieces ideally.

 

[golden_blunder]

Unless he’s an upgrade defensively I have no interest. The ball progression, dribbling, passing etc is an added bonus. But we need someone coming in who is going to take the burden of Maguire.

 

[A-man]

I never say he's an upgrade in defense. There is a reason why I never talk about it in this thread because in my view they are defensively about the same. My point is that Torres is still an upgrade of Lindelof since you don't think he is. Similar defensively, better in ball playing is still an upgrade though because there is still aspect of what makes him better or what he offers better than Lindelof.

He looks worse than Lindelof defensively. And poor in the air.
If you go back to the stats you looked at before you can see that Lindelof wins average amount of aerial duels compared to other CBs in Europe’s top 5 leagues. Torres is at the 11 percentile. That means he is among those who win absolutely least aerials in Europe.
There are many who want to upgrade Lindelof. I haven’t seen anyone but you who want to replace him because he’s not good enough with the ball. It’s normally that they want someone stronger in the air, stronger in “wrestling” or faster to be better at cover for Maguire.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He looks worse than Lindelof defensively. And poor in the air.
If you go back to the stats you looked at before you can see that Lindelof wins average amount of aerial duels compared to other CBs in Europe’s top 5 leagues. Torres is at the 11 percentile. That means he is among those who win absolutely least aerials in Europe.
There are many who want to upgrade Lindelof. I haven’t seen anyone but you who want to replace him because he’s not good enough with the ball. It’s normally that they want someone stronger in the air, stronger in “wrestling” or faster to be better at cover for Maguire.

How does he look worse? Using your argument, I can also say the same Lindelof is poor in ground duel. 47% win ground duel and only 1.2 successful attempted, in comparison Torres has much better. That means Lindelof is among those who wins absolutely least ground duel in Europe, no wonder he’s so afraid to hold the ball and commits on challenge. Where did I say I want to replace Lindelof because he’s not good enough with the ball? I’m only saying that Torres would still walk straight being a Lindelof upgrade which counter your point because you don’t think he would (see your own quote below).

Its just that no PL experience could be a risk, doesn’t mean it’s a no go, absolutely not. Many of the best defenders in the PL are from other countries. I’m just not sure a guy like Torres would walk straight in.

 

[Mylock]

A few interesting posts on Torres. Some people are obsessed with speed as a requirement, Bailly and Tuanzebe have speed, and both have failed to nail down the role as Harry's partner.
In my opinion, the jury is still out on Torres; I like to judge players by watching them in matches rather than on stats. I've yet to see him get caught out for speed. Is it because he's an excellent reader and cut out the danger in the first place? As for poor heading, I've watched him on about ten occasions and have yet to see him get caught out in the air.
I have seen an excellent defender who can pass and reads the game well, a significant improvement on what we have at the moment.
Hopefully, we can see what he's really like over the next few weeks.

 

[A-man]

How does he look worse? Using your argument, I can also say the same Lindelof is poor in ground duel. 47% win ground duel and only 1.2 successful attempted, in comparison Torres has much better. That means Lindelof is among those who wins absolutely least ground duel in Europe, no wonder he’s so afraid to hold the ball and commits on challenge. Where did I say I want to replace Lindelof because he’s not good enough with the ball? I’m only saying that Torres would still walk straight being a Lindelof upgrade which counter your point because you don’t think he would (see your own quote below).

That you believe Lindelof is poor in ground duels doesn’t make Torres good in the air. He is still one of the worst in la liga. As I wrote in the opening post, we have conceded 12 goals in open play when Lindelof -Maguire have played so losing ground duels doesn’t look like a big problem.

 

[A-man]

A few interesting posts on Torres. Some people are obsessed with speed as a requirement, Bailly and Tuanzebe have speed, and both have failed to nail down the role as Harry's partner.
In my opinion, the jury is still out on Torres; I like to judge players by watching them in matches rather than on stats. I've yet to see him get caught out for speed. Is it because he's an excellent reader and cut out the danger in the first place? As for poor heading, I've watched him on about ten occasions and have yet to see him get caught out in the air.
I have seen an excellent defender who can pass and reads the game well, a significant improvement on what we have at the moment.
Hopefully, we can see what he's really like over the next few weeks.

It’s impossible to evaluate a player on stats alone.
When it comes to speed, in the CB discussion some people have the idea that a speedy CB could cover for Harry and push to keep a high line at the same time.
In the matches I have seen Torres he doesn’t really go in to aerial duels.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That you believe Lindelof is poor in ground duels doesn’t make Torres good in the air. He is still one of the worst in la liga. As I wrote in the opening post, we have conceded 12 goals in open play when Lindelof -Maguire have played so losing ground duels doesn’t look like a big problem.

How is being slightly better on aerial duel on stats is enough to conclude that Lindelof is better defensively? If anything I'm being generous to call both are about the same on their overall defensive ability because Pau Torres aerial duel success is 61.54% while Lindelof is 63.37% (about the same). Pau Torres ground duel success is 64% while Lindelof is 47% (big difference).

 

[A-man]

How is being slightly better on aerial duel on stats is enough to conclude that Lindelof is better defensively? If anything I'm being generous to call both are about the same on their overall defensive ability because Pau Torres aerial duel success is 61.54% while Lindelof is 63.37% (about the same). Pau Torres ground duel success is 64% while Lindelof is 47% (big difference).

In the matches I have watched, it has struck me that Torres doesn’t go in to aerial duels. This seems to be supported by the stats. If you look at both attempts and won aerials he’s among the absolute worst in la liga. His percentage is ok and a huge improvement from last season. On top of aerial duels you have aerial clearances, passes and so on.
There are many who complain about Lindelof being too poor in the air and want to replace him because of that. If Lindelof, who is average by European standards, is to poor, should he be replaced by one of the worst?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

In the matches I have watched, it has struck me that Torres doesn’t go in to aerial duels. This seems to be supported by the stats. If you look at both attempts and won aerials he’s among the absolute worst in la liga. His percentage is ok and a huge improvement from last season. On top of aerial duels you have aerial clearances, passes and so on.
There are many who complain about Lindelof being too poor in the air and want to replace him because of that. If Lindelof, who is average by European standards, is to poor, should he be replaced by one of the worst?

And somehow Lindelof aerial duel is worse than Torres when playing against La Liga team but Torres did better playing against EPL team. So how can you conclude that Lindelof is better defensively?

 

[A-man]

And somehow Lindelof aerial duel is worse than Torres when playing against La Liga team but Torres did better playing against EPL team. So how can you conclude that Lindelof is better defensively?

According to the stats from whoscored Torres won in total one aerial vs Arsenal x2 and Manchester United. He was also among the worst both this and last season in la liga.
Are you trying to say that he’ll be an upgrade in the air?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

According to the stats from whoscored Torres won in total one aerial vs Arsenal x2 and Manchester United. He was also among the worst both this and last season in la liga.
Are you trying to say that he’ll be an upgrade in the air?

How can you interpret from me saying they are about the same defensively and aerial duel to upgrade in the air? You are the one who said Lindelof is better defensively, so I want you to prove it here how Lindelof is better defensively and not similar defensively.

 

[A-man]

How can you interpret from me saying they are about the same defensively and aerial duel to upgrade in the air? You are the one who said Lindelof is better defensively, so I want you to prove it here how Lindelof is better defensively and not similar.

Lindelof is better defensively imo. We can never know how good Torres is until he moves to PL. Maybe he goes from worst in the air in la liga to a monster in the air in the PL, we can never know.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Lindelof is better defensively imo. We can never know how good Torres is until he moves to PL. Maybe he goes from worst in the air in la liga to a monster in the air in the PL, we can never know.

The final was perfect test to know how Torres does vs PL team and how Lindelof does vs La Liga team.

So how is Lindelof better when the stats doesn’t show he’s better? I need you tell me how and why, from what I watched they are similar defensively but Torres offers better on the ball. The stats agree with my eye test.

 

[A-man]

The final was perfect test to know how Torres does vs PL team and how Lindelof does vs La Liga team.

So how is Lindelof better when the stats doesn’t show he’s better? I need you tell me how and why, from what I watched they are similar defensively but Torres offers better on the ball. The stats agree with my eye test.

One match is one match. Torres worked ok in this ultra defensive setup, didn’t create much and wasn’t really tested. But it’s only one match.
If you lean on stats then it must be obvious that Torres is poor in the air. I don’t think that will
improve in a more physical league like PL. Anyway, no need to discuss this any more. You believe he would be great and believe we cannot know.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

One match is one match. Torres worked ok in this ultra defensive setup, didn’t create much and wasn’t really tested. But it’s only one match.
If you lean on stats then it must be obvious that Torres is poor in the air. I don’t think that will
improve in a more physical league like PL. Anyway, no need to discuss this any more. You believe he would be great and believe we cannot know.

So why is it matter in defensive set up whether he can win aerially or no?

The stats show similar numbers. So I would like to know how can you conclude based on the stats that Lindelof is obvious better than Torres defensively? What do you see in that stats while I cannot see?

 

[A-man]

So why is it matter in defensive set up whether he can win aerially or no?

The stats show similar numbers. So I would like to know how can you conclude based on the stats that Lindelof is obvious better than Torres defensively? What do you see in that stats while I cannot see?

It was a general reflection from the game, that they had a very defensive setup.
The stats are not similar, Torres has among the worst aerial stats in la liga. Lindelof being better defensively is based on observations plus the worry that an aerially weak player like Torres might struggle in the PL. But again, since it is dry hard to compare players in different leagues we can never know if he will make it.
He is not an obvious replacement, might be a bench player.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

It was a general reflection from the game, that they had a very defensive setup.

How and why is defensive set up matter with player’s aerial ability?

The stats are not similar, Torres has among the worst aerial stats in la liga. Lindelof being better defensively is based on observations plus the worry that an aerially weak player like Torres might struggle in the PL. But again, since it is dry hard to compare players in different leagues we can never know if he will make it.
He is not an obvious replacement, might be a bench player.

Point me specifically on the stats how you can’t conclude that both Torres and Lindelof are similar defensively. There has to be something on that stats that I failed to see but somehow you were able to pick up.

 

[A-man]

How and why is defensive set up matter with player’s aerial ability?

Never said it did. It was a general observation from the game that he was totally ok in that ultra defensive setup. His poor aerial ability has nothing to do with that.

Point me specifically on the stats how you can’t conclude that both Torres and Lindelof are similar defensively. There has to be something on that stats that I failed to see but somehow you were able to pick up.

Observations plus his poor aerial ability, as I have written hundreds times.
Look, as I wrote this is getting nowhere. You think he’s amazing and will be a huge upgrade because of his dribbling ability and other ball handling skills, and and I am not sure he’ll be a starter. No one can know for sure.It’s better you continue to argue in his thread in the transfer forum.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Never said it did. It was a general observation from the game that he was totally ok in that ultra defensive setup. His poor aerial ability has nothing to do with that.

If it has nothing to do why are you mentioning? See, you always try to over-stretch something irrelevant to hide the relevant and important point.

Observations plus his poor aerial ability, as I have written hundreds times.
Look, as I wrote this is getting nowhere. You think he’s amazing and will be a huge upgrade because of his dribbling ability and other ball handling skills, and and I am not sure he’ll be a starter. No one can know for sure.It’s better you continue to argue in his thread in the transfer forum.

Aerial duel the stats show about similar number (using your argument on Torres being poor means Lindelof also poor aerial ability) while ground duel the stats show significantly different. All I’m asking you is to point me specifically on the stats how you can conclude that Lindelof is better defensive and not similar, it would be a progress in our discussion. Why can’t you do that?

Of course you can’t do that because Lindelof is not better than Torres defensively, even on the stats show it.

 

[A-man]

If it has nothing to do why are you mentioning? See, you always try to over-stretch something irrelevant to hide the relevant and important point.



Aerial duel the stats show about similar number (using your argument on Torres being poor means Lindelof also poor aerial ability) while ground duel the stats show significantly different. All I’m asking you is to point me specifically on the stats how you can conclude that Lindelof is better defensive and not similar, it would be a progress in our discussion. Why can’t you do that?

Of course you can’t do that because Lindelof is not better than Torres defensively, even on the stats show it.

As I wrote I have watched him play. It’s based on observations in combination with his poor aerial ability. You can say what you want but his stats are not looking good in that regard

La liga stats for CBs
2019/20
Won aerials per game
1. Garcia 5.2
2. ....
47. Torres 1.4
48. Postigo 1.3
End of list

2020/21
1. Garcia 4.6
...
44. Torres 1.7
..
51. Mingueza 0.7
End of list

Anyways,I’m not going round and round with you anymore in this discussion. It doesn’t give me anything at all. You have made your point and I don’t agree. Simple as that.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

As I wrote I have watched him play. It’s based on observations in combination with his poor aerial ability. You can say what you want but his stats are not looking good in that regard

La liga stats for CBs
2019/20
Won aerials per game
1. Garcia 5.2
2. ....
47. Torres 1.4
48. Postigo 1.3
End of list

2020/21
1. Garcia 4.6
...
44. Torres 1.7
..
51. Mingueza 0.7
End of list

Anyways,I’m not going round and round with you anymore in this discussion. It doesn’t give me anything at all. You have made your point and I don’t agree. Simple as that.

How is being poor not similar to Lindelof then?

Aerial duel 1.7 (61.54%) vs 2.3 (63.37%) how is that not similar?
Ground duel 1.8 (64%) vs 1.2 (47%) how is that not similar?
Go look at Maguire if you want to know the difference between obvious better and similar.

The stats show similar number between Lindelof and Torres but you chose to say Lindelof is ‘’obvious better defensively’’. This proves how much you have overrated Lindelof.

 

[golden_blunder]

You guys are going around in circles. NEITHER are good enough in my opinion. We need to upgrade Lindelof but with someone who’s going to nail those things that he’s poor on. Torres is not that guy. In my opinion. Obviously the game is different in Spain so it’s hard to give a definitive answer.

 

[bosskeano]

Way too much bs about stats and using stats to value a player especially for a CB. If you used stats to determine buying a CB we never would have bought Vida due to his lack of pace, wasn't the best passer of the ball and came from a shit league. what the stats didn't tell you is that he'd throw his head or body into every block or challenge, he read the game superbly, he was dominant in the air and most importantly he turned out to be the IDEAL partner for Rio.

The eye test man....watch the lad play football

 

[28gunsalute]

In the old days hardly anybody beat Bruce or Pallister to a header. Brucie would run through a brick wall for the team not like the powder puffs we have now.
Maguire is a decent centre half, yes hes slow and turns like a caravan but hes good. He just needs a fast, hard guy next to him and away we go.
Bailly is wreckless, dives in when not needed and is getting as injury prone as Jones.
Tuanebe is NOT good enough.

 

[A-man]

You guys are going around in circles. NEITHER are good enough in my opinion. We need to upgrade Lindelof but with someone who’s going to nail those things that he’s poor on. Torres is not that guy. In my opinion. Obviously the game is different in Spain so it’s hard to give a definitive answer.

It’s difficult to get a CB who would be an upgrade of his weak sides, and at the same time just as good as him on his strong sides.
Varane looks to be the best of the candidates and would be an instant upgrade, but also he has flaws like he’s mistake prone, and not as good on the ball imo, however quite similar. He also has similarities, like doesn’t go in to many duels, so if someone wants a CB attacking more than protecting space then Varane is too similar imo.

Way too much bs about stats and using stats to value a player especially for a CB. If you used stats to determine buying a CB we never would have bought Vida due to his lack of pace, wasn't the best passer of the ball and came from a shit league. what the stats didn't tell you is that he'd throw his head or body into every block or challenge, he read the game superbly, he was dominant in the air and most importantly he turned out to be the IDEAL partner for Rio.

The eye test man....watch the lad play football

You can follow one, two maybe even three or four teams in to details, but if you want to get a clue about the majority of Europe’s players, watching a handful of games in combo with stats is your only chance. I don’t need to watch Bayern’s matches, I can see from stats that Lewandowski is good at scoring goals.
If people have concerns about Lindelof’s aerial ability, I wouldn’t bet my money on the CB with one of the worst aerial stats in la liga. Absolutely, if you have followed Villareal in detail the last two seasons and claim he’s actually quite good in the air, I would listen to you. If not, stats plus the 5-6 games I’ve seen this season tell me he might be a risk in that department.

 

[Ish]

Will city even consider selling Laporte to us?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I expect a compatible pair. Two very different defenders in style and speed. Not twins

 

[golden_blunder]

Will city even consider selling Laporte to us?

Oh he’d be delicious

 

[Ish]

Oh he’d be delicious

Yeah he’d be great and has apparently made it clear at city that he’d like to leave since he’s lost his spot. I highly doubt that they’d sell to us but he’d be great.

 

[golden_blunder]

Yeah he’d be great and has apparently made it clear at city that he’d like to leave since he’s lost his spot. I highly doubt that they’d sell to us but he’d be great.

Yeah rumour is he wants to go back to Spain