When will the French tap run dry?...

Rozay

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Countries tend to have ‘generations’ of players - a group that is expected to win a tournament or two due to having some top class players at the same time. From being a little more sporadic, the French tap has been Flowing more than any other nation for ages now.

In the space of 20 years, France won two World Cups one European Championship, lost another World Cup final on penalties and also lost in another European Championship final. It’s a ridiculous record for a 20 year span, and was achieved with different generations of players. They were also headed into this summer’s proposed Euros as overwhelming favourites again.

Just before this period, France hadn’t done a great deal at all on the international stage. All of a sudden, it just worked, and the dam has burst.

On an individual level, they have only produced one Ballon D’or in this season 20 year period in Zidane, although there are some strong arguments that Henry and Ribery were both robbed at separate times. They look set to return to individual domination shortly with Mbappé.

They are the only nation that seems to be consistently producing world class talent in every single position on the pitch.

What suddenly clicked, and could they soon replace Brazil as the historic source of the world’s best players?
 

Bebestation

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A great mixed races team that embraces what the future humanity looks like - mixed race.

A good mix of core French players, Algerian and other African players living in france utilising that system and benefiting from it.

Happening in Germany too with a mixture of Turkish players and other races.

It might be farfetched but I do believe it allows these teams to have varying levels of talent with multiple capabilities.
 

André Dominguez

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I do think depth wise they have the best team, but if other teams keep their strongest starting 11 fit, the quality gap is only marginal.
 

DWelbz19

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A great mixed races team that embraces what the future humanity looks like - mixed race.

A good mix of core French players, Algerian and other African players living in france utilising that system and benefiting from it.

Happening in Germany too with a mixture of Turkish players and other races.

It might be farfetched but I do believe it allows these teams to have varying levels of talent with multiple capabilities.
It is an interesting point. You could possibly argue Belgium’s ‘golden generation’ has benefited from this too with how many players in the NT of the past 5-10 years are of Congolese descent. Some are also of North African descent - the Maghreb area.
 

horsechoker

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A great mixed races team that embraces what the future humanity looks like - mixed race.

A good mix of core French players, Algerian and other African players living in france utilising that system and benefiting from it.

Happening in Germany too with a mixture of Turkish players and other races.

It might be farfetched but I do believe it allows these teams to have varying levels of talent with multiple capabilities.
It probably has to do with coaching as England has a very mixed team but hasn't produced anything close to France or Germany. It might also explain why Italy has fallen behind, they lack the diversity of France and Germany.
 

Righteous Steps

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It probably has to do with coaching as England has a very mixed team but hasn't produced anything close to France or Germany. It might also explain why Italy has fallen behind, they lack the diversity of France and Germany.
Coaching is the most important, Spain don’t have a mixed team and have done wonders, England in the next 10 years will
start to match France though, they were in the last 20 years but apart from adequate coaching I think they lacked the true world beaters that France had in Zidane and Henry, I think that is changing with the likes of Sancho who can be a match for someone like Mbappe going forward.
 

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Countries tend to have ‘generations’ of players - a group that is expected to win a tournament or two due to having some top class players at the same time. From being a little more sporadic, the French tap has been Flowing more than any other nation for ages now.

In the space of 20 years, France won two World Cups one European Championship, lost another World Cup final on penalties and also lost in another European Championship final. It’s a ridiculous record for a 20 year span, and was achieved with different generations of players. They were also headed into this summer’s proposed Euros as overwhelming favourites again.

Just before this period, France hadn’t done a great deal at all on the international stage. All of a sudden, it just worked, and the dam has burst.

On an individual level, they have only produced one Ballon D’or in this season 20 year period in Zidane, although there are some strong arguments that Henry and Ribery were both robbed at separate times. They look set to return to individual domination shortly with Mbappé.

They are the only nation that seems to be consistently producing world class talent in every single position on the pitch.

What suddenly clicked, and could they soon replace Brazil as the historic source of the world’s best players?
it will never run dry. You forgot Griezmann. The Balon D'or does not represent your strenght as a football nation. Verane, Kante Greizmann, Benzema and Pogba have all had nominations for Fifa best player in the past years.

 
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horsechoker

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Coaching is the most important, Spain don’t have a mixed team and have done wonders, England in the next 10 years will
start to match France though, they were in the last 20 years but apart from adequate coaching I think they lacked the true world beaters that France had in Zidane and Henry, I think that is changing with the likes of Sancho who can be a match for someone like Mbappe going forward.
 

Righteous Steps

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:lol:

The previous generations underachieve but to be fair they never had any truly Ballon D’or level players in the realms of Ronaldinho Ronaldo Zidane Henry, so it shouldn’t be a surprise. Think things will be different going forward.
 

Rozay

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it will never run dry. You forgot Griezmann

Yea, I’ve seen this video before. If people on the internet were not as sensitive about conversations on race it touches on another topic I’ve been wanting to start a thread on for a few years now.

And what section would you say I forgot Griezmann in? Do you think he should have won a Ballon D’or? I can’t remember anymore if he ever reached that level, you may be right though. He obviously isn’t a future winner, Mbappé is front runner, and they have extremely high hopes for Cherki it seems.
 

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A great mixed races team that embraces what the future humanity looks like - mixed race.

A good mix of core French players, Algerian and other African players living in france utilising that system and benefiting from it.

Happening in Germany too with a mixture of Turkish players and other races.

It might be farfetched but I do believe it allows these teams to have varying levels of talent with multiple capabilities.
Its not even a question of a doubt.You have seen it in other sports like Basketball and American football. In the Paris banlieues, immigrant populations produce lots of pro footballers. much like the famed Brazilian favellas. They can then hone these skills under world class tutelage in the various academies across the country, moving from street footballer to top tier talent. In an ideal world, these same academies will be present in African nations so they can develop their own organic talent to the same standard.
 

romufc

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England will soon be up there.
I agree, have some very talented players coming through.

the next few years will be crucial with the likes of Rashford, Greenwood, CHO, Trent, Maddison, Grealish, Sancho, Gomez all quite new to first team football.

Ofcourse Rashford has been there for a while but still quite young and hasn't really got a first 11 spot in the team.
 

Rooney in Paris

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I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say they'd "not done a great deal" on the international stage - while I didn't witness it firsthand, most French football fans will tell you that the late 70s and then all the way through the 80s teams were excellent. They also believe the best iteration of those teams with Platini are better than the 98-00 team (most fans don't believe the 2018 team is as good as the 2000 team).

But massive amount of talent, excellent coaching and formation system, and, importantly, play a style that works well for international football (which was as much the case in 98 as in 18).
 

JPRouve

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It's closer to 40-50 years than 20. The 90s generation was more talented than the most recent one with Blanc, Cantona, Papin, Ginola, Desailly, Deschamps, Djorkaeff and many others but the NT was disfunctional, the best generation was arguably the previous one in the 80s with Giresse, Platini, Tigana, Fernandez, Amoros, Bossis, Bats or Ferreri. The previous one was also talented with Jean Pierre Adams, Janvion, Marius Trésor, Bernard Lacombe and Rocheteau.
 

Snafu17

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Didn't they have a bit of meh generation just before this one? Either way they're a giant country in which football is far and away the most popular sport. It shouldn't be possible for the tap to run dry.
 

Rozay

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It's closer to 40-50 years than 20. The 90s generation was more talented than the most recent one with Blanc, Cantona, Papin, Ginola, Desailly, Deschamps, Djorkaeff and many others but the NT was disfunctional, the best generation was arguably the previous one in the 80s with Giresse, Platini, Tigana, Fernandez, Amoros, Bossis, Bats or Ferreri. The previous one was also talented with Jean Pierre Adams, Janvion, Marius Trésor, Bernard Lacombe and Rocheteau.
I agree, and should have probably made more of a distinction between individual talent and successful national teams - but from a team perspective, the 20 years between 98 and 18 are so different from what went before it. France had even missed out on a lot of tournaments altogether over prior decades. If a shootout had gone differently and a final in Euro 16 - they could have been looking at 3 World Cups and 3 European Cups between 98 and 20 if they had gone on to win this summer. A lot of ‘ifs’ I know, but not THAT far fetched.

As a team, I don’t even think they have really been that exciting in that period. They have often been pragmatic, although had brilliant individuals. But not much fantasy in their play.
 

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They might have weaker generations but the tap will only be perceived to run dry when large developing football nations like Nigeria etc catch up with Europe. As it stands Germany and then France are the best placed nations in football to produce talent.
 

JPRouve

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I agree, and should have probably made more of a distinction between individual talent and successful national teams - but from a team perspective, the 20 years between 98 and 18 are so different from what went before it. France had even missed out on a lot of tournaments altogether over prior decades. If a shootout had gone differently and a final in Euro 16 - they could have been looking at 3 World Cups and 3 European Cups between 98 and 20 if they had gone on to win this summer. A lot of ‘ifs’ I know, but not THAT far fetched.

As a team, I don’t even think they have really been that exciting in that period. They have often been pragmatic, although had brilliant individuals. But not much fantasy in their play.
That's fair. It's a bit like Rugby, historically in France the game is supposed to be about flair and fun, not pragmatism. Only Jacquet and Deschamps have embraced pragmatism and while it wins you games it also divides and some are critical because the WC winning teams haven't been great and won't be eulogised. France 84 is the one that will always be at the top because it mixed everything, fun and success.

So if your question is when will France be shit again? When Deschamps retires.
 

Bebestation

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Its not even a question of a doubt.You have seen it in other sports like Basketball and American football. In the Paris banlieues, immigrant populations produce lots of pro footballers. much like the famed Brazilian favellas. They can then hone these skills under world class tutelage in the various academies across the country, moving from street footballer to top tier talent. In an ideal world, these same academies will be present in African nations so they can develop their own organic talent to the same standard.
That's another aspect of it I find quite underrated personally is the "ghetto" or the "street football". I find it very important in the development of skillful players in every country.

I dont think England exactly boosts in it like it used to atleast for me it seems to be better the further it gets away from an economic mass like central london.

You wonder exactly where did players like Neymar, Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe even players like Ozil become so skillful - sure not everyone is going to be born in ghetto playing football - but the more there is, the better some will also improve.
 
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11101

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I don't think it will dry up any time soon. They have their white-French players like the rest of Europe, but in the North African immigrant population they also have a source of incredible talent who all grow up doing nothing but play football. It's just a matter of finding them and putting them in one of the regional academies.

What might happen is football moves towards a different blend of attributes and what they produce is no longer so effective.
 

iHicksy

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:lol:

The previous generations underachieve but to be fair they never had any truly Ballon D’or level players in the realms of Ronaldinho Ronaldo Zidane Henry, so it shouldn’t be a surprise. Think things will be different going forward.
We did. We had Owen at his peak . Then later on arguably the best midfield in the world "on paper" Lampard, Gerrard, Beckham and Scholes. All at their absolute peaks. Then defence could choose from Rio, Terry, Carra, Cole, Neville etc. With a Wayne Rooney at the height of his powers.
 

JPRouve

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Yea, I’ve seen this video before. If people on the internet were not as sensitive about conversations on race it touches on another topic I’ve been wanting to start a thread on for a few years now.

And what section would you say I forgot Griezmann in? Do you think he should have won a Ballon D’or? I can’t remember anymore if he ever reached that level, you may be right though. He obviously isn’t a future winner, Mbappé is front runner, and they have extremely high hopes for Cherki it seems.
You didn't forgot Griezmann, he is a spanish product.
 

Righteous Steps

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We did. We had Owen at his peak . Then later on arguably the best midfield in the world "on paper" Lampard, Gerrard, Beckham and Scholes. All at their absolute peaks. Then defence could choose from Rio, Terry, Carra, Cole, Neville etc. With a Wayne Rooney at the height of his powers.
Owen Gerrard Lampard Scholes or Rooney are not world beaters, Owen managed to win the most dubious B’allon D’or but none of those players are on the level of the likes of Romario Ronaldinho Zidane Ronaldo players who have spearheaded their teams to World Cups during the 90’s and 00’s.

I guess you can overachieve with good coaching and a dip in quality in the right year, but unless you have a core of a side such as Spain who have been coached at the same clubs and managers for years on years it’a hard to win a World Cup, and even Spain had Iniesta and Xavi two players greater than any those you named for England.
 

Righteous Steps

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They might have weaker generations but the tap will only be perceived to run dry when large developing football nations like Nigeria etc catch up with Europe. As it stands Germany and then France are the best placed nations in football to produce talent.
You can’t leave England out in my opinion.
 

iHicksy

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Owen Gerrard Lampard Scholes or Rooney are not world beaters, Owen managed to win the most dubious B’allon D’or but none of those players are on the level of the likes of Romario Ronaldinho Zidane Ronaldo players who have spearheaded their teams to World Cups during the 90’s and 00’s.

I guess you can overachieve with good coaching and a dip in quality in the right year, but unless you have a core of a side such as Spain who have been coached at the same clubs and managers for years on years it’a hard to win a World Cup, and even Spain had Iniesta and Xavi two players greater than any those you named for England.
They really are. Each was in the top 2-3 in the world in their respective positions. Gerrard for Liverpool dragged them to a champions league victory and Rooney was considered better than ronnie at his peak around the same time. Young Rooney could win you a game in the same manner that Zidane could. Infact Rooney was spearheading us to our first major tournament before that portugal game.
 

JPRouve

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They really are. Each was in the top 2-3 in the world in their respective positions. Gerrard for Liverpool dragged them to a champions league victory and Rooney was considered better than ronnie at his peak around the same time. Young Rooney could win you a game in the same manner that Zidane could. Infact Rooney was spearheading us to our first major tournament before that portugal game.
Is that true? For example was Owen in the top 3 among strikers in 2001? Was he for example clearly above Ronaldo, Raul, Henry, Trezeguet, Vieri or Shevchenko?

I picked 2001 because for some reason he won the Ballon d'Or.
 

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Owen Gerrard Lampard Scholes or Rooney are not world beaters, Owen managed to win the most dubious B’allon D’or but none of those players are on the level of the likes of Romario Ronaldinho Zidane Ronaldo players who have spearheaded their teams to World Cups during the 90’s and 00’s.

I guess you can overachieve with good coaching and a dip in quality in the right year, but unless you have a core of a side such as Spain who have been coached at the same clubs and managers for years on years it’a hard to win a World Cup, and even Spain had Iniesta and Xavi two players greater than any those you named for England.
Messi never won a world cup so I guess he isn't a world beater. Zlatan neither, nor Kaka (or any Dutch player), Batistuta, Laudrup, Eto'o, Raul, Dalglish, Seedorf, Figo, Sheva, Zico, Socrates, George Best - all fail the world beater metric by your standard.
 

BalanceUnAutreJoint

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Not anytime soon.
In fact the generation coming up is much better than the one that won the World Cup.
Mbappe is not even guaranteed the title of best French player of the next decade with what there is in store, he'll have to fight hard for it.
 

iHicksy

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Is that true? For example was Owen in the top 3 among strikers in 2001? Was he for example clearly above Ronaldo, Raul, Henry, Trezeguet, Vieri or Shevchenko?

I picked 2001 because for some reason he won the Ballon d'Or.
That's an excellent question. I think he was the closest to Ronaldo (who was undoubtedly better - because he could do everything owen and more) out of those guys in that he could literally beat 2-3 men himself and score a goal. Honestly his actual finishing was insanely clinical (as much as I can't stand the guy). The likes of Henry etc were no doubt more technically gifted but it was owen's combination of pace / ability to turn and control the ball at speed and his clinical finishing that made him so good. Of course, as soon as he suffered injuries his career in that bracket was over as he was so reliant on his pace. There wasn't another striker in the world that could score that goal he did against Argentina. He was deadly from outside the box too.

This video does a decent job of showing how complete he was:
 

Greck

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it will never run dry. You forgot Griezmann. The Balon D'or does not represent your strenght as a football nation. Verane, Kante Greizmann, Benzema and Pogba have all had nominations for Fifa best player in the past years.

Great video. One thing it missed is their foreign descents also come from hardcore football playing nations. Having access to that talent pool doesn't hurt
 

JPRouve

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That's an excellent question. I think he was the closest to Ronaldo (who was undoubtedly better - because he could do everything owen and more) out of those guys in that he could literally beat 2-3 men himself and score a goal. Honestly his actual finishing was insanely clinical (as much as I can't stand the guy). The likes of Henry etc were no doubt more technically gifted but it was owen's combination of pace / ability to turn and control the ball at speed and his clinical finishing that made him so good. Of course, as soon as he suffered injuries his career in that bracket was over as he was so reliant on his pace. There wasn't another striker in the world that could score that goal he did against Argentina. He was deadly from outside the box too.

This video does a decent job of showing how complete he was:
Your summary is more about aesthetic than actual level of performances because despite what you say he wasn't scoring more goals than the others and he was assisting. Owen in my opinion was never in the top 3 among strikers, he was a top player but several strikers outperformed him during his peak, maybe without the injuries he would have developed into a superior player but it didn't happen.

For me in 2001 Raul, Trezeguet and Shevchenko were definitely better. Raul was arguably the most complete striker and registered big numbers, Trezeguet was a better goalscorer and a menace in the air, while Shevchenko was as good a finisher as Owen.
 

JPRouve

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Great video. One thing it missed is their foreign descents also come from hardcore football playing nations. Having access to that talent pool doesn't hurt
I wouldn't call it great, for one small reason. There is nothing unique about french immigration.
 

paraguayo

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The immigration thing is relevant but you have to give credit to their development system.

Still France has about 3 to 5 million blacks, and Brazil has anywhere from 70 million to 100 million people with African descent and we are so corrupt and incompetent that there can be another country producing better players.