Where does Carrick go in terms of all time greats for United?

[Smithy_123]

Towards the bottom of top 25.

We've had so many fantastic players in all positions over the years that I can't feasibly put him any higher. Top 25 is probably too generous, come to think of it.

 

[Munich_1958]

Tier 2 a class above BUTT and a class below some of the best CM's football has ever seen Scholes, Keane, Charlton and Robbo he has no right to be in that bracket not many do from most clubs

 

[Grunge]

I understand its a bit cliche to say this but I think Carrick will always be considered a "Great Servant" to the shirt. He won't be remembered for being "special" the way Johnny Carey, Duncan Edwards, Bobby Charlton, Denis Law, George Best, Bryan Robson, and more recently the likes Becks, Cantona, Schmeichel and their ilk will be.

Maybe he'd be remembered more like a Paddy Crerand who was a wonderfully talented aggressive half-back in a wonderfully talented and flamboyant team. I don't know if Carrick's love for all things United is as great as Paddy's (perhaps nobody is ) but like Crerand he's been key to many of our successes over the years.

For anyone that's been on this site for an extended period, (at least 2006 when he joined us) you'll know there's been a love-hate relationship with this likeable Geordie for most posters (including me). I don't think it'd be hard to find a number of "Carrick must go threads" over the years but equally there's been plenty of support for a guy who who still finds himself playing a key role in a team, once again looking good and playing exciting, attacking football.

 

[red_devil83]

A lot of people hammering him in this - only the same level as Butt?

He's not a spectacular player (bit like Gary Nev) but I think I'd put them on the same level. Well above Butt and Fletcher etc

He basically never does anything spectacular which I think is what 'costs' him. There's no "Wow!" moments.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

Only talking central midfielders so not wide players or those more known for other roles...my Top Ten would be:

1. Edwards
2. Charlton

3. Robson
4. Scholes
5. Keane

6. Ince
7. Carrick
8. Wilkins
9. Crerand
10. Stiles

Only three tiers.

 

[Raees]

Do performances like he put in against Liverpool confirm the fact he isn't quite as top tier as some have led us to believe in our all time standings. I know he is ageing but it is the same type of performance he would put in even at his peak against pressing opposition.

 

[Manny]

Wijnaldum >> Pogba too...

 

[Rob Bowman]

Truth is in an ideal world, him and Rooney would not have been allowed to have 10 years at this club and get to 'legendary' status. It shows that standards have dropped and mere longevity of service is putting everyone in the legend bracket. If we had reinforced our midfield and attack properly, both these guys wouldn't be at the club post 2013.

How exactly have standards dropped when Carrick was starting CM in the most dominant period of club history? Three CL finals in four years.

Honestly I am okay that many people do not recognize all the little things Carrick does to make teams better but acting as if Carrick was not on the pitch during that time just baffles me.

 

[Infordin]

Games like the one on Sunday further uphold my belief that he's simply nowhere near Busquets. As soon as a Liverpool player got within 2 meters of him he panicked.

 

[ti vu]

How exactly have standards dropped when Carrick was starting CM in the most dominant period of club history? Three CL finals in four years.

Honestly I am okay that many people do not recognize all the little things Carrick does to make teams better but acting as if Carrick was not on the pitch during that time just baffles me.

I think what the previous poster meant is something like we were able to buy Essien, Ballack, Xavi, Modric, Marchisio, Senna... with Hagreaves not being an injury prone, Carrick role under SAF would have been very different.

 

[Rob Bowman]

I think what the previous poster meant is something like we were able to buy Essien, Ballack, Xavi, Modric, Marchisio... with Hagreaves not being an injury prone, Carrick role under SAF would have been very different.

I understand that, things could have been much different. All that still doesn't change Carrick's starting role in that dominant period.

 

[Litch]

Like all the best players, their worth will only be evident when they are no longer playing for us. We still haven't been able to replace him and that speaks volumes irrespective of what manager comes in, and only truly great players end their careers on their terms at top clubs....

 

[jojose]

If he ranted and raved, slide in for tackles, got booked more and picked up the occasional red card and was injured more in spite of none of that actually being positive, he would be considered by many as a better player than they currently rate him at. People become better players, or it becomes more apparent how important they are when they are missing. The fact he’s a quiet unassuming lad has certainly hindered his International career and will no doubt also have a negative effect on how he’s remembered as a players for us.

A key figure in a side that played in 3 champions league finals and won 4 league titles in 5 years and he’s consistently been questioned / doubted and overlooked for England. Just baffles me. The number of England caps he has is an utter disgrace.

If he was Spanish, Dutch, German, Portugueese he would be pushing 100 caps.

The problem with him is he is very different to Keano, Robbo, Scholesy etc. He’s the only one of that type of player we have had and so any kind of comparison is difficult because they are so different. But for what he’s achieved, his consistency and his all-around soundness as a bloke……he’s up there with the best for me.

 

[2mufc0]

Tier below Scholes, Keane, Robson, Charlton imo

 

[jojose]

I don't see what Scholes did to belong to the top tier in people's lists other than being a darling of the fans. There was never a season in which both Beckham and Scholes played together in which Scholes was more important or influential to the team, other than perhaps Beckham's last. Scholes actually tended to be most expendable of the famous midfield four.

On pure footballing ability, I could see a case could be made for Scholes as top tier, but then by that line of reasoning, Keane would be in the third tier. Scholes, Giggs and Beckham belong in the same tier.

Jesus Christ! You absolute melt.

Scolesy was smashing in 30 yard screamers in the semi final of the champions league against Barcelona whilst Beckham was playing for LA Galaxy, but yeah he wasn't all that and was expendable. So expendable that we dragged him out of retirement.

Put the crack pipe down mate and go sit on your brain and keep it warm

 

[Raees]

How exactly have standards dropped when Carrick was starting CM in the most dominant period of club history? Three CL finals in four years.

Honestly I am okay that many people do not recognize all the little things Carrick does to make teams better but acting as if Carrick was not on the pitch during that time just baffles me.

What baffles me is the little things that people can't notice that Carrick can't do, which has been demonstrated on a number of performances. People always bring up Pirlo v Park, that was one of the best man-marking performances in the modern game to nullify one of the true greats. That can happen now and again. Carrick goes into pussy mode against most half decent teams which employs an effective press.

 

[Unmutual]

Carrick isnt in that elite category, but he's at that level just below along with players like Dennis Irwin.

 

[Raees]

If he ranted and raved, slide in for tackles, got booked more and picked up the occasional red card and was injured more in spite of none of that actually being positive, he would be considered by many as a better player than they currently rate him at. People become better players, or it becomes more apparent how important they are when they are missing. The fact he’s a quiet unassuming lad has certainly hindered his International career and will no doubt also have a negative effect on how he’s remembered as a players for us.

A key figure in a side that played in 3 champions league finals and won 4 league titles in 5 years and he’s consistently been questioned / doubted and overlooked for England. Just baffles me. The number of England caps he has is an utter disgrace.

If he was Spanish, Dutch, German, Portugueese he would be pushing 100 caps.

The problem with him is he is very different to Keano, Robbo, Scholesy etc. He’s the only one of that type of player we have had and so any kind of comparison is difficult because they are so different. But for what he’s achieved, his consistency and his all-around soundness as a bloke……he’s up there with the best for me.

He wouldn't have got a national cap if he played for the Spanish or German teams, their midfield depth is some of the best of all time and I doubt he'd have been more effective than De Jong/Van Bommel for their national team. In terms of ability, Carrick is in many ways their superior but they brought more character and presence on the ball.. which the Dutch team was in great need of.

 

[Raees]

Carrick isnt in that elite category, but he's at that level just below along with players like Dennis Irwin.

Dennis Irwin is one of the best players we have ever had in relation to his position, so I disagree.

 

[Skills]

If he ranted and raved, slide in for tackles, got booked more and picked up the occasional red card and was injured more in spite of none of that actually being positive, he would be considered by many as a better player than they currently rate him at. People become better players, or it becomes more apparent how important they are when they are missing. The fact he’s a quiet unassuming lad has certainly hindered his International career and will no doubt also have a negative effect on how he’s remembered as a players for us.

A key figure in a side that played in 3 champions league finals and won 4 league titles in 5 years and he’s consistently been questioned / doubted and overlooked for England. Just baffles me. The number of England caps he has is an utter disgrace.

If he was Spanish, Dutch, German, Portugueese he would be pushing 100 caps.

The problem with him is he is very different to Keano, Robbo, Scholesy etc. He’s the only one of that type of player we have had and so any kind of comparison is difficult because they are so different. But for what he’s achieved, his consistency and his all-around soundness as a bloke……he’s up there with the best for me.

No he wouldn't. He'd have to compete against the most talented generation of midfielders ever just to get a cap for Spain.

For Germany he might have grabbed a few more post ballack and before Kroos came along.

 

[Marcelinho87]

No where near a legend for me. Been a good player over the years,and one we seemingly cannot replace. However not good enough to be considered a legend. I would put him ahead of Butt but behind Scholes, Keane, Ince, Veron.

What? Veron was barely a player for us? I recall him doing a rabona or two and a decent volleyed ball for Beckham.

Carrick has controlled our midfield for a decade or so.

 

[jojose]

He wouldn't have got a national cap if he played for the Spanish or German teams, their midfield depth is some of the best of all time and I doubt he'd have been more effective than De Jong/Van Bommel for their national team. In terms of ability, Carrick is in many ways their superior but they brought more character and presence on the ball.. which the Dutch team was in great need of.

I was more referring to their appreciation of his ability. In England we have been looking for a player to get on the ball and keep it whilst pretecting the back 4. We talk about it after every single competition. Then we over look carrick.

Other nations don't require their players to charge about, scream and shot to be considered good. The rate, appreciate and admire the Carrick type player.

 

[jojose]

No he wouldn't. He'd have to compete against the most talented generation of midfielders ever just to get a cap for Spain.

For Germany he might have grabbed a few more post ballack and before Kroos came along.

I was more referring to their appreciation of his ability. In England we have been looking for a player to get on the ball and keep it whilst pretecting the back 4. We talk about it after every single competition. Then we over look carrick.

Other nations don't require their players to charge about, scream and shot to be considered good. The rate, appreciate and admire the Carrick type player.

 

[Raees]

I was more referring to their appreciation of his ability. In England we have been looking for a player to get on the ball and keep it whilst pretecting the back 4. We talk about it after every single competition. Then we over look carrick.

Other nations don't require their players to charge about, scream and shot to be considered good. The rate, appreciate and admire the Carrick type player.

Totally understand where you are coming from in that they appreciate the serene type, but trust me.. these continental fans love a player who is brave on the ball, someone who is willing to get on it.. countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, Holland.. they have a long history of producing much better midfielders than the english. For them courage isn't about slide tackles, it is about wanting to get the ball no matter what.. someone like Guardiola at his pomp is the opposite personality of Keane, and different style of play but he was nevertheless a courageous player.

We overrate Carrick because we think, hey he's also calm and clever like a european style midfielder but they fail to see his failings and why he does definitely fall short of the likes of Cambiasso/Alonso/Busquets.

 

[Skills]

Has he ever been a top 10 midfielder in the world?

Even in his best season - 12.13, I'd say the following were better players:

Schweinsteiger
Iniesta
Xavi
Busquets
Alonso
Pirlo
Vidal
Kroos
Martinez
Carrick?

 

[Marcelinho87]

Has he ever been a top 10 midfielder in the world?

Even in his best season - 12.13, I'd say the following were better players:

Schweinsteiger
Iniesta
Xavi
Busquets
Alonso
Pirlo
Vidal
Kroos
Martinez
Carrick?

Add Modric to that list too.

 

[jojose]

Totally understand where you are coming from in that they appreciate the serene type, but trust me.. these continental fans love a player who is brave on the ball, someone who is willing to get on it.. countries like Spain, Italy, Germany, Holland.. they have a long history of producing much better midfielders than the english. For them courage isn't about slide tackles, it is about wanting to get the ball no matter what.. someone like Guardiola at his pomp is the opposite personality of Keane, and different style of play but he was nevertheless a courageous player.

We overrate Carrick because we think, hey he's also calm and clever like a european style midfielder but they fail to see his failings and why he does definitely fall short of the likes of Alonso/Busquets.

Possibly.
I also think we tend to overrate Spanish / German midfielders of similar ilk who are tested a 10-15 times per season. Maybe not overate, but compare them more favourabley against English players. If he was called Michail Carrickinho and we paid £50m from Gremio for him, he'd get more headlines and appreciation.

It's easy being brave taking the ball off the back 4 when the opposition is parking the bus which those lads are accustomed to. I am not knocking Alonso and Busquets, both great players. I just think Carrick is as good as them. I love watching the 3 of them.

I think this summer or next we'll be in a similar boat to when we signed Carrick. He was signed to replace Keano but was an alternative option. Not like for like. I think we will have to do something similar replacing Carrick. Alonso is nearly finished and Busquets will not be gettable. Kroos is a brilliant player but for me, he plays 10-15 yards further up the field than Carrick / Alonso / Busquets and isn't as clever positionaly / defensively as those.

 

[Unmutual]

Dennis Irwin is one of the best players we have ever had in relation to his position, so I disagree.

In a far less competitive part of the pitch. I don't think most fans would consider Irwin at the same level as Robson, Keane, Scholes, etc.

 

[jojose]

Has he ever been a top 10 midfielder in the world?

Even in his best season - 12.13, I'd say the following were better players:

Schweinsteiger
Iniesta
Xavi
Busquets
Alonso
Pirlo
Vidal
Kroos
Martinez
Carrick?

Would love to know how many times you watched those players in 2012-2013 and what you can recall from it. Id have a wager you hadn't even heard of vidal then.

 

[Raees]

In a far less competitive part of the pitch. I don't think most fans would consider Irwin at the same level as Robson, Keane, Scholes, etc.

Of course not, but someone like Cafu would be considered above them if he played for this club.. so it isn't just a position thing, it is your greatness in relation to your position. Irwin was one of the finest full backs in Europe, not quite Zanetti/Cafu level but one of the finest nonetheless and take into account that they're some of the greatest full backs of 'All-Time'.

Now as good as Alonso/Busquets are, I wouldn't categorise them as GOAT midfielders, they're in the category of best of the contemporary CDMS but I wouldn't put them on Rijkaard level for example and yet Carrick is still very obviously wanting in comparisons to them. Ergo, relative to their position Irwin is a greater player than Carrick for me.

 

[jojose]

Of course not, but someone like Cafu would be considered above them if he played for this club.. so it isn't just a position thing, it is your greatness in relation to your position. Irwin was one of the finest full backs in Europe, not quite Zanetti/Cafu level but one of the finest nonetheless and take into account that they're some of the greatest full backs of 'All-Time'.

Now as good as Alonso/Busquets are, I wouldn't categorise them as GOAT midfielders, they're in the category of best of the contemporary CDMS but I wouldn't put them on Rijkaard level for example and yet Carrick is still very obviously wanting in comparisons to them. Ergo, relative to their position Irwin is a greater player than Carrick for me.

I honestly don't think he is.

 

[Raees]

Possibly.
I also think we tend to overrate Spanish / German midfielders of similar ilk who are tested a 10-15 times per season. Maybe not overate, but compare them more favourabley against English players. If he was called Michail Carrickinho and we paid £50m from Gremio for him, he'd get more headlines and appreciation.

It's easy being brave taking the ball off the back 4 when the opposition is parking the bus which those lads are accustomed to. I am not knocking Alonso and Busquets, both great players. I just think Carrick is as good as them. I love watching the 3 of them.

I think this summer or next we'll be in a similar boat to when we signed Carrick. He was signed to replace Keano but was an alternative option. Not like for like. I think we will have to do something similar replacing Carrick. Alonso is nearly finished and Busquets will not be gettable. Kroos is a brilliant player but for me, he plays 10-15 yards further up the field than Carrick / Alonso / Busquets and isn't as clever positionaly / defensively as those.

If his name was Mikhayel Carrickino, he'd have been sold by now and a proper replacement would have been found. The fact he is english, has meant we have wanted to keep him because he gives the side that home-grown presence which is pretty important tbh.

Teams don't just park the bus against Real Madrid/Bayern/Barca.. some do, but others try to press them.. in fact in Spain, teams are usually criticised for their defending because they true to play their football against the top sides, they try to press the top sides and get torn apart. Take a team like Sevilla for example, a team which usually takes it to the opposition.. it is a myth that spanish teams just park the bus and invite Barca & co on to them.

I don't think replacing Carrick is impossible. I think United have made a meal out of it and I am confident that once we sign a replacement, our performances in these big games will go up a notch.

 

[Raees]

I honestly don't think he is.

He is. For me anyone who doesn't think so is biased and wearing rose-tinted spectacles. Defensively he is up there with the very best and arguably > Alonso, but on the ball.. he's a class below any of them.

 

[jojose]

He is. For me anyone who doesn't think so is biased and wearing rose-tinted spectacles. Defensively he is up there with the very best and arguably > Alonso, but on the ball.. he's a class below any of them.

He isn't. .

Your mis-understanding my point a little. A think foreign players are always rated higher than our current home grown players. More than likely out of excitement. I know he's had injury problems but Basti is prime example. Everybody assumed he's waltz into the side and Carrick would be benched. Same for Blind, Herrera etc etc Even Schniderlin.

Carrick is a brilliant player and definitely has been underrated by so many. Like I say, there isn't a direct comparison in terms of ex United players to rate him against and so he'll always fall short of the very different Keano and Robbo which is probably fair.

However, The 5 years proceeding the signing of Carrick, was arguably the most successful 5 year period in the clubs history and he deserves enormous credit for that.

I had many argument at the time with people saying we won so much in spite of Carrick and not because of him. Or how we'd be better with Basti / Hargreaves / Ballack etc. Or that it was only because we had Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez.

In my opinion, Carrick is every bidy as good as Basti, Ballack, Alonso etc and Ronaldo, Rooney etc where as good as they where because of what Carrick provided.

Had he not misse the start of the season we'd be getting the same now......"imagine how good Pogba and Herrera would be with somebody other than Carrick".......in truth, Pogba and Herrera have been so good for the past few months because of Carrick!

His legacy will never be remembered as greatly as Keane and Robbo due to his personality but is importance to the success of the club should be remembered by fans.

Brilliant player.

 

[Amar__]

Has he ever been a top 10 midfielder in the world?

Even in his best season - 12.13, I'd say the following were better players:

Schweinsteiger
Iniesta
Xavi
Busquets
Alonso
Pirlo
Vidal
Kroos
Martinez
Carrick?

You just named best midfielders over last five years or so

Pretty sure at least 5 of those were poor that season.

 

[VeevaVee]

When we had higher standards everyone wanted one of those worldies to play alongside him. He couldn't quite cut with the biggest. He's more like an all time very good, and a perfect servant of the club, in a way that is almost becoming old fashioned.

 

[Sparky10Legend]

Irwin> Carrick and that's no sleight on Carrick.

Carrick has always been susceptible to the uber press. Sadly.

 

[Sparky10Legend]

You just named best midfielders over last five years or so

Pretty sure at least 5 of those were poor that season.

So great players are generally good one year then crap the next?

 

[Robertd0803]

Don't really go for direct comparisons like is he as big a legend as Robson/Scholes/Keane/Chris Eagles or whatever midfielder you care to mention but time will tell really. Carrick will be remembered very fondly when he stops playing (and even replacing him is going to be a tough job and is the cause of much debate) and his time here coincided with one of the most successful periods in Uniteds history. That's enough for me to have him in our all time greats list.

 

[Skills]

You just named best midfielders over last five years or so

Pretty sure at least 5 of those were poor that season.

Who was poor? If you're going to say any of that Barcelona 3, even if they were poor by their standards they would still piss all over Carrick from a distance.